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Contradiction in the Constitution...

The founders of the constitution so desperately hoped that the nation would always strive to protect individual liberties and the rights of the states. This is especially true when considering the last two amendments of the Bill of Rights. However, the whole "federal law trumps state law" basically negates the protection of state's rights because the Feds can simply pass a law and it will always supersede ANY state law. This is the greatest canundrum of our nation: Centralized or Decentralized?

One thing that you libertarians and your conservative fellows always forget about the 10th Amendment is that it says that powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states and the people. Which is why I support a method of federal popular initiatives so the people can initiate federal laws directly.

As to the answer of your question, I think the government should shift on the needs of the people, not that the people should shift on the needs of the government. The people will decide if they prefer a centralized or decentralized national government.

Personally, I don't mind the federalization of our national and state governments as they are now. There are a few reforms I would make, however, but basically I like what we have now.

I don't mind the supremacy clause either. Many libertarians say that state governments are buffers against tyranny of the national government, and I don't disagree; however, I contend that national governments are bulwarks against tyrannies of state governments. American citizens all have the same rights on a national level, and it is the duty of the national government to enforce the ability to pursue those rights in states whose governments would infringe on those rights. The best example of this is how state governments in the South infringed on the rights of African-Americans and it was only through the national government exerting it's authority to protect their rights that they were able to stop being second class citizens in the U.S.

So I think it's disingenuous to say that a centralized federal government has the ability to become authoritarian when most instances show that state governments are more likely to become tyrannical instead.
 
One thing that you libertarians and your conservative fellows always forget about the 10th Amendment is that it says that powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states and the people. Which is why I support a method of federal popular initiatives so the people can initiate federal laws directly.

As to the answer of your question, I think the government should shift on the needs of the people, not that the people should shift on the needs of the government. The people will decide if they prefer a centralized or decentralized national government.

Personally, I don't mind the federalization of our national and state governments as they are now. There are a few reforms I would make, however, but basically I like what we have now.

I don't mind the supremacy clause either. Many libertarians say that state governments are buffers against tyranny of the national government, and I don't disagree; however, I contend that national governments are bulwarks against tyrannies of state governments. American citizens all have the same rights on a national level, and it is the duty of the national government to enforce the ability to pursue those rights in states whose governments would infringe on those rights. The best example of this is how state governments in the South infringed on the rights of African-Americans and it was only through the national government exerting it's authority to protect their rights that they were able to stop being second class citizens in the U.S.

So I think it's disingenuous to say that a centralized federal government has the ability to become authoritarian when most instances show that state governments are more likely to become tyrannical instead.

Let's take the recent controversy surrounding Rand Paul's statement. He basically said that he agreed with the fundamentals of the C.R.A. of 1965 but that he would modify (he later retracted this suggestion) the part that dealt with private businesses. Jim Crow Laws were state government laws, not private customs. It makes sense to eliminate the governmental preference of whites over blacks, but it makes no sense to start telling businessmen who they can and cannot do business with.
 
One thing that you libertarians and your conservative fellows always forget about the 10th Amendment is that it says that powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states and the people. Which is why I support a method of federal popular initiatives so the people can initiate federal laws directly.

As to the answer of your question, I think the government should shift on the needs of the people, not that the people should shift on the needs of the government. The people will decide if they prefer a centralized or decentralized national government.

Personally, I don't mind the federalization of our national and state governments as they are now. There are a few reforms I would make, however, but basically I like what we have now.

I don't mind the supremacy clause either. Many libertarians say that state governments are buffers against tyranny of the national government, and I don't disagree; however, I contend that national governments are bulwarks against tyrannies of state governments. American citizens all have the same rights on a national level, and it is the duty of the national government to enforce the ability to pursue those rights in states whose governments would infringe on those rights. The best example of this is how state governments in the South infringed on the rights of African-Americans and it was only through the national government exerting it's authority to protect their rights that they were able to stop being second class citizens in the U.S.

So I think it's disingenuous to say that a centralized federal government has the ability to become authoritarian when most instances show that state governments are more likely to become tyrannical instead.

I do not agree with the federal referendum initiative, as you have just proposed. It may sound odd that a libertarian should take such a stance, but I do live in California where state referendums have been the bain of our political existence. We enact laws and regulations and further tax increases over and over, while we continue to repeal the laws we voted on yesterday. The direct democracy may only work in very small communities (like Nebraska) or may it not work at all.
 
Let's take the recent controversy surrounding Rand Paul's statement. He basically said that he agreed with the fundamentals of the C.R.A. of 1965 but that he would modify (he later retracted this suggestion) the part that dealt with private businesses. Jim Crow Laws were state government laws, not private customs. It makes sense to eliminate the governmental preference of whites over blacks, but it makes no sense to start telling businessmen who they can and cannot do business with.

Okay. I still think that the national government should have the power to intervene on state governments on behalf of citizens to the nation. We are all guaranteed certain rights on a national level. It is the duty of the national government to protect those rights, even against state governments.

I do not agree with the federal referendum initiative, as you have just proposed. It may sound odd that a libertarian should take such a stance, but I do live in California where state referendums have been the bain of our political existence. We enact laws and regulations and further tax increases over and over, while we continue to repeal the laws we voted on yesterday. The direct democracy may only work in very small communities (like Nebraska) or may it not work at all.

Well, there are different types of processes for popular initiatives. At the very least, I want a process of popular initiative that gives people the right to recall federal laws. So while the people may not be able to write laws, they can at least recall laws politicians have passed that are greatly unpopular.

As a process for writing law, I want a system of popular initiative in which a law can be written if 1) the majority of voters pass it and 2) it has a majority within a majority of states. So not only should it get a majority of votes nation-wide, a majority voters in a majority of states should favor it in order to get it passed.

The type of popular initiative can be whatever - I'm just saying that, Constitutionally speaking, the people are entitled to a process of popular initiative via the 10th Amendment.
 
Many libertarians say that state governments are buffers against tyranny of the national government, and I don't disagree; however, I contend that national governments are bulwarks against tyrannies of state governments.

The record of the Constitutional Convention bears this out. This concept was a recurring theme throughout the 1787 Constitutional Convention. The Federalist thought was that a strong national government, to be TRULY strong, HAD to have the universal negative over state's laws. Without it, the nation could never succeed long-term. The Articles of Confederation provided for no such strong central government:

No sooner were the State Govts. formed than their jealousy & ambition began to display themselves. Each endeavoured to cut a slice from the common loaf, to add to its own morsel, till at length the confederation became frittered down to the impotent condition in which it now stands. Review the progress of the articles of Confederation thro' Congress & compare the first & last draught of it. To correct its vices is the business of this convention. One of its vices is the want of an effectual controul in the whole over its parts. What danger is there that the whole will unnecessarily sacrifice a part? But reverse the case, and leave the whole at the mercy of each part, and will not the general interest be continually sacrificed to local interests? (James Wilson, Pennsylvania)

We see this most clearly with the Arizona controversy. Arizona has passed a law that is not on the books of other states. Because of that discrepancy, there could be room for an unfair advantage in those states or in Arizona. By passing this law, without respect of the laws of California, New Maxico, and Texas, does not the Arizona legislature form an environment where the governments of those states will have to deal with an increase in the illegal immigration that Arizona seeks to address? The universal negative was seen as a way for the Federal Government to make sure that all of the states were playing by the same general set of rules, and that if a state passed a law in contravention of those rules, it could be negated by an act of the national legislature or the national judiciary. Immigration reform is a political hot-potato, and neither party is going to touch it with a 10-foot pole during an election year. But the point is that by circumventing Federal authiority on the issue, Arizona has put in place the environment for negative effect on the neighboring states. This is one of the stated reasons for inserting the universal negative (supremacy) clause into the Constitution.

In fact, many of the delegates to the 1887 Constitutional Convention felt that there was far more danger from the states towards the general government than there was from the general government towards the states. The reasoning is fairly straightforward: the lower house would be elected by the people of the states, not the general government, so they would be more likely to look out for the interests of the individual states. Likewise, the Senate was to be chosen by the respective state legislatures, and would also look out for the interests of the individual states. But who would look out for the general government? The Founders saw intrigues and animosity on the part of the state governments towards the general government as a great threat. All it would take is for one state government to thumb its nose at the general government and the rest would follow suit, inevitably leading to the fall of the general government. Indeed, we are seeing this very premonition come to truth as several other states are considering laws similar to the Arizona law.

The great expansion of the general government is due to the dissolution of the isolation of representatives and Senators. By that, I mean that Senators and representatives clearly no longer have only their individual state's or district's interests at heart when the take a position or cast a vote. The uber-corrupting influence of money and power has seen to that.
 
The founders of the constitution so desperately hoped that the nation would always strive to protect individual liberties and the rights of the states. This is especially true when considering the last two amendments of the Bill of Rights. However, the whole "federal law trumps state law" basically negates the protection of state's rights because the Feds can simply pass a law and it will always supersede ANY state law. This is the greatest canundrum of our nation: Centralized or Decentralized?

Typical Frosh thinking.

Hopefully by Junior year you'll see they're not mutually exclusive ideas.

And if you make it to law school, you'll learn it's not about "trumping" so much as guiding and Uniting.

People sell grass in CA.
 
Typical Frosh thinking.

Hopefully by Junior year you'll see they're not mutually exclusive ideas.

And if you make it to law school, you'll learn it's not about "trumping" so much as guiding and Uniting.

People sell grass in CA.
So that's what you're smoking.
 
The basic assertion of this thread is wrong. The framers of the Constitution were just as divided about the power of the federal government versus the power of the states as we are today. What we moslty see is that, when the federal government does something that someone doesn't like, they assert that the federal government is overstepping its authority under the Constitution. Those same people are more than happy to argue about the federal government doing something to help them. Example, folks in the farm belt grouse about the federal government as they cash their farm subsidy checks.
 
The Founders did not envision the federal govt we have today, they envisioned a federal govt with limited duties and sufficient authority to carry those duties out.

They didn't envision the world of today. You can't just transplant people 200 years forward in time and expect that not to change their views at all. Times change, people change, beliefs change. The views of people in that time period are only held by a small group today, for instance.
 
They didn't envision the world of today. You can't just transplant people 200 years forward in time and expect that not to change their views at all. Times change, people change, beliefs change. The views of people in that time period are only held by a small group today, for instance.

The Constitution is what it is, if you don't like it then change it. The Founders understood people, and people don't change.
 
They didn't envision the world of today. You can't just transplant people 200 years forward in time and expect that not to change their views at all. Times change, people change, beliefs change.
And the GOOD news is that the Constitution has a mechanism for change as well.
Given that, I don't understand why some people thnk the courts are the proper vehicle for necessary change.
 
And the GOOD news is that the Constitution has a mechanism for change as well.
Given that, I don't understand why some people thnk the courts are the proper vehicle for necessary change.


Mostly, the amendments have been passed because the courts weren't able to deal with the situation. As long as the courts can resolve the issues at hand, they are the preferred way to handle disputes. They interpret the Constitution. Their interpretation has changed over time. It will continue to evolve. Some people feel that any ruling by the court that doesn't agree with their own "enlightened" view is an obvious case of the court making law.

We should always keep in mind that it is possible for reasonable, and well meaning, people to disagree.
 
Mostly, the amendments have been passed because the courts weren't able to deal with the situation. As long as the courts can resolve the issues at hand, they are the preferred way to handle disputes.
Disputes, yes. Granting the government the power to do something that's not in the Constituion, no.

If the government has a pressing need to do something that's not in the Constition, the preferred method to give the government that power is to amend the constitution to that effect.
That is, after all, why there is an amendment process.
 
Disputes, yes. Granting the government the power to do something that's not in the Constituion, no.

If the government has a pressing need to do something that's not in the Constition, the preferred method to give the government that power is to amend the constitution to that effect.
That is, after all, why there is an amendment process.

Trying to make an amendment to the U.S. Constitution is kind of like a post-13th century European prince calling for a crusade to retake the Holy Land. It's not going to happen, but you look good for trying. The age of amendments is more or less over. To bring it back, we would either have to simplify the amendment process (bad idea) or outlaw political parties (good idea, but probably not executable).
 
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One thing that you libertarians and your conservative fellows always forget about the 10th Amendment is that it says that powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states and the people. Which is why I support a method of federal popular initiatives so the people can initiate federal laws directly.

As to the answer of your question, I think the government should shift on the needs of the people, not that the people should shift on the needs of the government. The people will decide if they prefer a centralized or decentralized national government.

Personally, I don't mind the federalization of our national and state governments as they are now. There are a few reforms I would make, however, but basically I like what we have now.

I don't mind the supremacy clause either. Many libertarians say that state governments are buffers against tyranny of the national government, and I don't disagree; however, I contend that national governments are bulwarks against tyrannies of state governments. American citizens all have the same rights on a national level, and it is the duty of the national government to enforce the ability to pursue those rights in states whose governments would infringe on those rights. The best example of this is how state governments in the South infringed on the rights of African-Americans and it was only through the national government exerting it's authority to protect their rights that they were able to stop being second class citizens in the U.S.

So I think it's disingenuous to say that a centralized federal government has the ability to become authoritarian when most instances show that state governments are more likely to become tyrannical instead.

I wanted to respond again to this post. Where in the constitution is the power to regulate one's own body delegated to the federal government?
 
One thing that you libertarians and your conservative fellows always forget about the 10th Amendment is that it says that powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states and the people. Which is why I support a method of federal popular initiatives so the people can initiate federal laws directly.

At one time I would have agreed with you.

Then I moved to California. No further evidence is necessary to show that direct democracy is one seriously ****ed up idea.
 
Sure, but whatever those powers where seemed to be pretty unclear. Half the people who were at the convention could not even agree upon what the federal government was allowed to do, and when the constitution was ratified, there were at least 3 conflicting interpretations as to what the legislative power of the federal government was.

Powers are very clear. Heck, Art I Sect 8 was even posted verbatim.
 
I wanted to respond again to this post. Where in the constitution is the power to regulate one's own body delegated to the federal government?

I would answer this question if I knew which particular issue are you talking about?
 
At one time I would have agreed with you.

Then I moved to California. No further evidence is necessary to show that direct democracy is one seriously ****ed up idea.

That doesn't mean that direct democracy is seriously ****ed up. It means that the process of direct democracy in California is seriously ****ed up.

Remember, I offered two processes for limited direct democracy on a federal level:

1) People's right to recall: While the people cannot propose bills to be passed into law, the people can propose repeals of federal laws. So if Congress passes and the President signs an unpopular law, the people have a direct power to repeal it.

2) Double-majority referendum: In order for a federal referendum to be passed, it must 1) get a majority of votes nation-wide and 2) it must get a majority in a majority of states. So not only will need a majority of national votes, it also needs majorities within at least 26 states. That makes it a little bit more difficult for it to pass, and help maintain our spirit of federalism.
 
I would answer this question if I knew which particular issue are you talking about?

Is it really that much of a mystery? What else am I talking about besides the regulation of our sexual organs and our ability to use them in a manner related to money exchange (prostitution) or the ability to ingest or consume substances at OUR will?
 
Is it really that much of a mystery?

Considering we never talked about sex or drugs elsewhere in this thread, yes, it was.

What else am I talking about besides the regulation of our sexual organs and our ability to use them in a manner related to money exchange (prostitution) or the ability to ingest or consume substances at OUR will?

Well, it could be argued that while the Constitution doesn't explicitly gives that power to the federal government, state and local governments have those powers, as mentioned in the 10th Amendment. However, the federal government can enact legislation regarding those as per the Commerce Clause.

Personally, however, I think prostitution and recreational drugs should be legal.
 
Considering we never talked about sex or drugs elsewhere in this thread, yes, it was.


Well, it could be argued that while the Constitution doesn't explicitly gives that power to the federal government, state and local governments have those powers, as mentioned in the 10th Amendment. However, the federal government can enact legislation regarding those as per the Commerce Clause.

Personally, however, I think prostitution and recreational drugs should be legal.

To expand further:

Prostitution isn't regulated on the federal level. Congress hasn't made prostitution illegal. Rather, state governments and county governments have made prostitution illegal. This is why parts of Nevada has legalized prostitution. If you want prostitution to be legal in your area, the best way to go about it is to lobby your city, county, and state politicians to repeal laws making it illegal.

With regards to recreational drug use, this is less cut-and-dry. Congress has the power to regulate food and pharmaceuticals because of the Pure Food and Drug Act, which is Constitutional with regards to the Interstate Commerce Clause. This is good in that it allows the federal government to provide consumer protections for medicines.

Unfortunately, it also allows the federal government to make recreational drugs illegal. This has resulted in the War on Drugs which has cost taxypayers far too much money than what it's worth. The federal government needs to stop regulating recreational drugs and leave it up to the states; however, they should still enact regulations for consumer protections for medicinal drugs and recreational drugs.

So while I don't think the federal government should regulate prostitution (which it doesn't) or recreational drugs (which it does) I will admit that Congress has the power to do so.
 
Trying to make an amendment to the U.S. Constitution is kind of like a post-13th century European prince calling for a crusade to retake the Holy Land. It's not going to happen, but you look good for trying. The age of amendments is more or less over. To bring it back, we would either have to simplify the amendment process (bad idea) or outlaw political parties (good idea, but probably not executable).

I'm very sorry, but your excuse just doesn't cut it. The Amendment process is what it is, and you are wrong about the age of amendments. Take a look at when the last one was ratified (1971).
 
Sure, but whatever those powers where seemed to be pretty unclear. Half the people who were at the convention could not even agree upon what the federal government was allowed to do, and when the constitution was ratified, there were at least 3 conflicting interpretations as to what the legislative power of the federal government was.

Would you mind presenting the which powers are unclear, and the three conflicting interpretations?
 
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