Conservatives: should we remove the Statue of Liberty poem?

[Revelation]

MAGAs aren't conservatives.

Orange 2.0 is not maga.

maga now Dark Maga, please change how we identify what is going on thank you. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Dark+Maga+is+technocracy&t=ffab&ia=web

 

[Maidenrules29]

Why weren't the passionate people of Los Angeles in the streets burning shit, and
throwing rocks and fireworks at police when:

• President Obama oversaw more formal removals than any other U.S. president in history.
• Over the eight-year period, approximately 74% of removals were conducted without a hearing before an immigration judge, primarily through expedited removal and reinstatement of prior orders.
• The Obama administration's immigration enforcement policies focused on recent unauthorized border crossers and those who had committed crimes.
• In fiscal year 2013, the Obama administration deported a record 438,421 unauthorized immigrants.

 

[NoMoreDems-Reps]

Immigration is fine !
Illegal Immigration is AGAINST THE LAW !.....

What's so hard about that for you to grasp ?

"Helping people out" is not done by allowing them to be criminals!

So how about this, would you want America to go invade, and install a new Government in other countries
as a means of helping all these "tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ?

We could set up The BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT ! A Constitutional Republic, and we'll have more land to
take care of the worlds tired, poor, and huddled masses !

Should we invade all these countries where all these people are coming from ?.....

 

[jaypatriot]

We should take the entire statue down at this point.

I bet you're lots of fun at Fourth of July celebrations.
Do you wear your flag pin?

 

[Hamish Howl]

Just needs a redesign.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Immigration is fine !
Illegal Immigration is AGAINST THE LAW !.....

What's so hard about that for you to grasp ?

"Helping people out" is not done by allowing them to be criminals!

So how about this, would you want America to go invade, and install a new Government in other countries
as a means of helping all these "tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ?

We could set up The BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT ! A Constitutional Republic, and we'll have more land to
take care of the worlds tired, poor, and huddled masses !

Should we invade all these countries where all these people are coming from ?.....

There are plenty of decaf coffees that taste almost the same as the real thing.

 

[maxparrish]

On German immigrants:

On Irish immigrants:
“[T]hey steal, they are cruel and bloody, full of revenge, and delighting in deadly execution, licentious, swearers and blasphemers, common ravishers of women, and murderers of children.” —Edmund S

etc. ...

Your trope is a common response to my observations, because it appealing to the nostalgic romanticism of Americans today, more than a century or two later. It usually ends with the vapid "And look, they are all good and productive Americans today".

And as I always answer: "So what?"

The only question needing answered is "What are the consequences for me, my children, my community NOW", not the benefits for someone 100 years from now. If you could go back in time and tell the victims of the Sicilian mafia not to worry, because after they and their children are dead from old age the Mafia will no longer be able to harm most urban people AND in the 21st century "we" got great Italian places to dine out at and some fine actors - well, might they wonder why you are asking them to sacrifice their wellbeing for a future you?

One of the greatest fallacies people succumb to is the assumption that the people of the past should have sacrificed their own wellbeing for us, just as some expect us today to suffer from the impact of mass immigration because, someday after we are long dead, there will be benefits not to but to us but unborn others.

To put it another way: in most of your quotes there is more truth than error. I am part Irish, but if I were an Anglo urban dweller during the diaspora of Irish to America, I would oppose their immigration. Why? Because the stories are true. Heavy drinking, violent, uncouth, riotous, labor violent, and so prone to turning drinking houses into street fight riots authorities nick-named the police wagon as the "paddy wagon". And they were the core of some of many City Machines and the corrupting spoils system, the very people that the Anglo progressives of the turn of the century fought by ballot to establish a civil service system and limit its corruption.

The point is simple, that my Irish relatives mostly and eventually assimilated and their descendants became good citizens (save for some exceptions) isn't relevant to those who had to endure their social costs.

So no, we don't need millions of peasants from Peru or Brazil's amazon, or villagers from Namibia, or rice farmers from Bangladesh. I don't care what cultural pluses they might contribute in 2125, I want to have as enjoyable and safe life now.

PS - Franklin didn't take long to change his view of the Germans.

 

[NoMoreDems-Reps]

Just needs a redesign.

View attachment 67573829

This is only the feelings of the libs who hate America and the idea of Following US Immigration Laws !

The same people who CAN NOT understand the difference between "Immigration" and "Illegal Immigration"....

But All the people from around the Worlds still understand that America's Constitutional Republic is the best form of Government and want to come here.

 

[VanceMack]

Those longing to be free have a reverence for their first sighting of the Statue of Liberty. It seems wasted on some home borne citizens and those who have forgotten where they came from. My life, and my children and their children's lives would be quite different if not for immigration.

I assume you mean LEGAL immigration...right?

Do you see a lot of people attacking legal immigration?

 

[VanceMack]

The statue of liberty was erected in 1886, the population of the United States was 63,000,000 in 1890. The density of population in the continental US was FIVE TIMES less than today. l

My home State of California in 1890 had a population of 1.2 million. Today it has a population of 40 million. In other words, California was Thirty-three (33) less dense than today.

I don't buy into the bull excrement of "its still never enough population" fanaticism, it amounting to packing people into confined borders and then demanding provision of more social services, more infrastructure, more industrialization, more freeways, more traffic congestion, more housing AND more air pollution while having fewer farms, fewer nature areas, less vacant lands, desirable and safe places to live.

The Statue of Liberty and the plaque that was added much later reflected an era long past. The frontier "closed" in 1890, and between then and WW1 the bulk of mass immigration flooded America, along with an equally prolific child birthing of heritage Americans. By 1920 there was 106,000,000 Americans.

And, I would remind those less familiar with history, this era of mass immigration was also one of plunging wages, much harsher working conditions, extreme labor violence, and over 600,000 strikes - in part because so many foreign speaking newcomers flooded labor markets. Moreover, it was also the era of new organized crime that would flourish in immigrant communities and corrupt and terrorize much of urban America for the next 70 to 80 years.

So NO, its not never enough people, it's ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Now that we have 341 million people and if that many people still can't build a prosperous nation then its not a serious nation and doesn't need more.

And if more people made a nation rich, then India should have been light years ahead of America because if it (and Africa) are very rich in people - or something is wrong with the "its never enough" doctrine - right?

Anyway, the plaque is a nostalgic and romantic sentiment to an era no longer relevant to our wants today or that we should be fostering today.

People dont think when it comes to immigration. They just dont. They dont apply reason. They dont apply logic. They apply feeeeeelings....but even those feelings only apply to political whims.

Every country on the pl;anet has an immigration policy. It is the duty of every government to regularly assess economic need when considering the number of legal immigrants they admit. As it is we bring in a million legal immigrants every single year.

People are tragically unrealistic about this country. We arent 'rich'...by any means. We are a nation 36 trillion in debt. We literally borrow money every year so that we can turn around and give that money to other countries...because we are so 'wealthy'. Of the approx 340 million people living in the US currently, only about 140 million are even employed.Less than half of the country shoulders the tax burden for 200 million retirees, disabled individuals, and people under the age of 24. Thats every cost for road, school, sustainment of a ridiculously bloated government, a suffocating social system, a defense budget that has been so horrible managed that they cant pass a basic audit. US taxpayers pay as virtually the sole support for many countries in Africa. US taxpayers are stuck with the debt spending for ridiculous frivolous spending across the globe. Every major city in the country deals with problems with homelessness with some parts of the city looking more look crumbling third world favelas than US cities. We make it easy for able bodied citizens to become emotionally crippled dependents.

And in spite all of those problems and so much more...people think we should just throw open our borders to all the worlds oppressed.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Every country on the pl;anet has an immigration policy. It is the duty of every government to regularly assess economic need when considering the number of legal immigrants they admit. As it is we bring in a million legal immigrants every single year.

Illegal immigrants add $800 billion annually to our GDP. Deporting them all would almost certainly send us into a recession.

Those people are, as you say, an “economic need.”

People are tragically unrealistic about this country. We arent 'rich'...by any means. We are a nation 36 trillion in debt.

And with $415 trillion in assets. That is a D/E ratio of ~0.087.

 

[VanceMack]

Illegal immigrants add $800 billion annually to our GDP. Deporting them all would almost certainly send us into a recession.

Those people are, as you say, an “economic need.”



And with $415 trillion in assets. That is a D/E ratio of ~0.087.

Horseshit. Even Congressional studies during the Biden administration admitted that illegal immigration COSTS the US 68,000$ per person. Not to mention the fact that many of those illegal immigrants earn and send money to support their families in other countries...meaning we are supporting THEIR economy at a constant drain to ours. And the number isnt 800 billion added to the US GDP, its 321 billion...much of which doesnt contribute to taxes collected...and that isnt added to our GDP...its added to other countries economies. New York city alone shouldered a 12 billion dollar burden to pay for illegal immigrants. Chicago pays about 36 million in benefits to illegal immigrants. DC in the 35 million range. Illegal immigrants cost residents of Denver 180 million. Illegal immigrants in Massachusetts cost 2 Billion. Those are just costs due to handout programs...it doesnt include the real cost of health care, burden on school districts, housing, etc.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

many of those illegal immigrants earn and send money to support their families in other countries...meaning we are supporting THEIR economy at a constant drain to ours. And the number isnt 800 billion added to the US GDP, its 321 billion...

According to data from PEW undocumented workers make up about 5% of the workforce, despite being only 3.3% of the population.

5% of a $27.72 trillion GDP is $1.39 trillion, which is probably closer to their actual value contribution.

But since labour is accounted for according to wages paid to the labourer, rather than value produced for the employer, estimates put the contribution of undocumented laborers closer to 3%, which would be around $830 billion.

Wealth isn’t a zero sum game. Wealth is created. If folks send some of the wealth they create back to their families, that’s great. Very noble and caring of them to care for their families.

Meanwhile, the rest of the wealth they created turns into dividends in my brokerage account.

We lose out on wealth if they get deported, they lose out, their families lose out…

Deporting them is a lose-lose-lose situation for everyone.

 

[BirdinHand]

I bet you're lots of fun at Fourth of July celebrations.
Do you wear your flag pin?

Why would I wear a flag pin? I find performative patriotism cliche and tacky.

And as for the 4th of July - actually, I tend to stick very close to home that day.

The 4th of July is one of the holidays I refer to as “amateur hour”. People tend to go out, drink, then get behind the wheels of their cars and drive drunk.

 

[ataraxia]

Your trope is a common response to my observations, because it appealing to the nostalgic romanticism of Americans today, more than a century or two later. It usually ends with the vapid "And look, they are all good and productive Americans today".

And as I always answer: "So what?"

The only question needing answered is "What are the consequences for me, my children, my community NOW", not the benefits for someone 100 years from now. If you could go back in time and tell the victims of the Sicilian mafia not to worry, because after they and their children are dead from old age the Mafia will no longer be able to harm most urban people AND in the 21st century "we" got great Italian places to dine out at and some fine actors - well, might they wonder why you are asking them to sacrifice their wellbeing for a future you?

One of the greatest fallacies people succumb to is the assumption that the people of the past should have sacrificed their own wellbeing for us, just as some expect us today to suffer from the impact of mass immigration because, someday after we are long dead, there will be benefits not to but to us but unborn others.

To put it another way: in most of your quotes there is more truth than error. I am part Irish, but if I were an Anglo urban dweller during the diaspora of Irish to America, I would oppose their immigration. Why? Because the stories are true. Heavy drinking, violent, uncouth, riotous, labor violent, and so prone to turning drinking houses into street fight riots authorities nick-named the police wagon as the "paddy wagon". And they were the core of some of many City Machines and the corrupting spoils system, the very people that the Anglo progressives of the turn of the century fought by ballot to establish a civil service system and limit its corruption.

The point is simple, that my Irish relatives mostly and eventually assimilated and their descendants became good citizens (save for some exceptions) isn't relevant to those who had to endure their social costs.

So no, we don't need millions of peasants from Peru or Brazil's amazon, or villagers from Namibia, or rice farmers from Bangladesh. I don't care what cultural pluses they might contribute in 2125, I want to have as enjoyable and safe life now.

PS - Franklin didn't take long to change his view of the Germans.

I guess it depends on what you mean by “enjoyable life”. If it means a continually improving economic situation, then almost all developed economies in the world today are realizing that immigrants are needed- otherwise it's just economic stagnation. Even countries traditionally closed to immigration and the outside world are embracing it. They realize it is impossible to stay competitive in today's world economically (and therefore geopolitically) without immigration.

Changes to Japan’s Immigration Law: A Shift Toward a New Labor Policy | Jobseeker Blog | WORK JAPAN

On June 14, 2024, Japan took a significant step in reforming its immigration policies. A proposed amendment to the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act of 1990—commonly known as the Immigration Law—was passed by the House of Councillors. The ruling coalition of the Liberal Democratic...

www.workjapan.jp

New immigration policies needed as Korea turns truly multicultural [AGENDA 2024]

Korea, striving to become a multicultural developed country, still struggles with formulating a comprehensive immigration policy that caters to both Korean needs and immigrants' integration aspirations.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

__________________________________________

But perhaps you meant something other than economically?

 

[ataraxia]

I mean, aren't they? Most American conservatives are Trump supporters. The ones who are not I guess can be termed something else, but MAGA Republicans are the same politicians and their voters the same Republican voters who voted for Romney, McCain, George W. Bush, Bob Dole, George H.W. Bush and Reagan. The people did not change. What the were willing to accept certainly did.

Things always evolve and change- sometimes slowly at first- but then to a point where it's unrecognizable. It's like the formation of new species from older ones in evolutionary biology. At some point, they evolve away from each other but are still considered the same species- but then it just becomes something else entirley. Who knew human beings originally evolved from lemurs?

Considering Lemurs on Our Quest to Understand Human Evolution | Center for the Advanced Study of Human Paleobiology | Columbian College of Arts & Sciences | The George Washington University

cashp.columbian.gwu.edu

So similarly, MAGA positions today, such as the government heavy-handedly protecting American businesses and workers from international competition, would have been absolutely shocking to even a traditional Bush Jr voter in 2008.

“You see, at first, when someone says, ‘Let’s impose tariffs on foreign imports,’ it looks like they’re doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works —but only for a short time.”

What eventually occurs is: First, homegrown industries start relying on government protection in the form of high tariffs. They stop competing and stop making the innovative management and technological changes they need to succeed in world markets. And then, while all this is going on, something even worse occurs. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars.

The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So, soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying.”

“Then the worst happens: Markets shrink and collapse; businesses and industries shut down; and millions of people lose their jobs.” "
-Ronald Reagan, 1987

 

[OlNate]

I said no. It's when decency is threatened that symbols of decency are most important.

 

[holbritter]

How about erecting a new statue, parallel to the current one, kinda like this? I think that would actually be the most accurate representation of what this country stands for now:

View attachment 67573745

You know, I disagree.....I refuse to let garbage change that. This country is NOT only MAGA idiots. Yes, they are currently in control BECAUSE not enough non-mega got off their asses and voted. It's not going to last and I think what's going on in LA is only the beginning of people getting tired of this shit.
Stay Salty and Resist.

 

[Quag]

How about erecting a new statue, parallel to the current one, kinda like this? I think that would actually be the most accurate representation of what this country stands for now:

View attachment 67573745

Trump would never go for that. Look he is shorter than her and not nearly ripped or gold (orange?) enough

 

[Dans La Lune]

Seems pretty incompatible with your views on immigration and American greatness. Would you support removing the poem?

“Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

There are other poems more relevant in this scenario:

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

 

[jaypatriot]

Why would I wear a flag pin? I find performative patriotism cliche and tacky.

And as for the 4th of July - actually, I tend to stick very close to home that day.

The 4th of July is one of the holidays I refer to as “amateur hour”. People tend to go out, drink, then get behind the wheels of their cars and drive drunk.

I suggest hanging on to your citizenship papers in the event you are stopped by ICE officials because you are becoming a well-known supporter of violent protests.
An American Flag pin prominently displayed could keep you from being swept up along with other radicals who do not accept the fact that ICE officers are doing their jobs in the face of violent protests.

 

[VanceMack]

According to data from PEW undocumented workers make up about 5% of the workforce, despite being only 3.3% of the population.

5% of a $27.72 trillion GDP is $1.39 trillion, which is probably closer to their actual value contribution.

But since labour is accounted for according to wages paid to the labourer, rather than value produced for the employer, estimates put the contribution of undocumented laborers closer to 3%, which would be around $830 billion.

Wealth isn’t a zero sum game. Wealth is created. If folks send some of the wealth they create back to their families, that’s great. Very noble and caring of them to care for their families.

Meanwhile, the rest of the wealth they created turns into dividends in my brokerage account.

We lose out on wealth if they get deported, they lose out, their families lose out…

Deporting them is a lose-lose-lose situation for everyone.

Making up 5% of the workforce does NOT equal 5% of the GDP (and your numbers are from the PEW research done back in 2014...about 30 million illegal immigrants ago). Hundreds of billions of dollars every year are sent OUT of the country and OUT of the economy. Entir cities and many countries are literally run on US dollars sent there by illegal immigrants. Much of that income is under reported and often off the books. Major cities across the country are funding illegal immigrants that are otherwise homeless and without resources.

 

[VanceMack]

You know, I disagree.....I refuse to let garbage change that. This country is NOT only MAGA idiots. Yes, they are currently in control BECAUSE not enough non-mega got off their asses and voted. It's not going to last and I think what's going on in LA is only the beginning of people getting tired of this shit.
Stay Salty and Resist.

Meanwhile, your state taxpayers (meaning you) are footing tax bills for the illegal immigrants to the tune of 6,846$ per taxpayer.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Making up 5% of the workforce does NOT equal 5% of the GDP (and your numbers are from the PEW research done back in 2014...about 30 million illegal immigrants ago).

So they make up an even larger portion of the workforce now, and their removal will hurt us even more. Present your data for the current portion of the workforce composed of undocumented workers if you like.

Hundreds of billions of dollars every year are sent OUT of the country and OUT of the economy.

More like $50-80 billion. But so what if they did? It is money that they earned with their labour. Labour which was overwhelmingly underpaid.

Even if they sent every penny they earned out of the country, the value of the labour they brought into the country is greater than the value of any money they are sending out. That is a net benefit to the US economy.

 

[VanceMack]

So they make up an even larger portion of the workforce now, and their removal will hurt us even more. Present your data for the current portion of the workforce composed of undocumented workers if you like.



More like $50-80 billion. But so what if they did? It is money that they earned with their labour. Labour which was overwhelmingly underpaid.

Even if they sent every penny they earned out of the country, the value of the labour they brought into the country is greater than the value of any money they are sending out. That is a net benefit to the US economy.

As has been shown...they make up an even larger portion of the crippled dependent leftist party base...and they are costing cities billions to house and feed them. There is no net benefit to the country. they are sending money OUT of our economy. So those that dont work are a drain. Those that do work are a drain. There is a reason why countries...all countries...have LEGAL immigration processes.