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Connecting the Dots

Sure, you get "agreement" about that among blind idiots who couldn't see the debris cloud falling faster than the building. But maybe things look different on Planet Earht.

Are you certain that you got the right building? WTC7 did descend for 2.25 sec at free fall
and the tower(s) where the ones descending at 64% of the acceleration of Gravity.

Can U dig it?
 
Are you certain that you got the right building? WTC7 did descend for 2.25 sec at free fall
and the tower(s) where the ones descending at 64% of the acceleration of Gravity.

Can U dig it?

No one other than Truffer websites makes that claim.
 
No one other than Truffer websites makes that claim.

are you aware of this: Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building ... - NIST NCSTAR 1A

Look on page 46, Graph of the descent of WTC7

The OFFICIAL taxpayer funded report on the subject states clearly that for the first 2.25 sec.
of descent the building fell at the acceleration of gravity.
 
No one other than Truffer websites makes that claim.

There is no evidence that the descent of the twin towers were at 64% of G... You are parroting nonsense you heard some else say or wrote and they were doing the same and so on. Where is the data to support this claim?

The only data I saw was on 911FF and it was that a portion of the collapse of 1wtc front was moving down at 65mph for 20 or 30 floors where it could be measured.
 
There is no evidence that the descent of the twin towers were at 64% of G... You are parroting nonsense you heard some else say or wrote and they were doing the same and so on. Where is the data to support this claim?

The only data I saw was on 911FF and it was that a portion of the collapse of 1wtc front was moving down at 65mph for 20 or 30 floors where it could be measured.

Ummm . . . what?
 
are you aware of this: Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building ... - NIST NCSTAR 1A

Look on page 46, Graph of the descent of WTC7

The OFFICIAL taxpayer funded report on the subject states clearly that for the first 2.25 sec.
of descent the building fell at the acceleration of gravity.

When the NIST website comes back up, I'll look at it.
 
No one other than Truther websites makes that claim.
Not so but it has a bit of sad history. The main point is that "free fall" is of little relevance in these sort of events.

The truth movement has, with some partial success, set out creating a meme that "free fall" MEANS "CD" - AKA "OMHI" ["Other Malicious Human Interventions"] and is ONLY associated with CD/OHMI THEREFORE (by truther false logic) free-fall means CD or OHMI. It doesn't. simple as that - as an Aussie I would call it "faeces of a male bovine" expressed in one word but..... :roll:

Add to that the reality that no engineer would regard free fall as significant and NIST in its first reports about WTC7 collapse did not think it necessary to comment of a brief period of free fall for part of the WTC7 façade.

Enter AE911 Charlatan D Chandler who queries NIST about free fall. NIST acknowledged free fall. Still no big deal. Buy the truth movement including Chandler markets the concession to Chandlers ignorance as an "admission" with all the associated lies by innuendo that it meant something. It didn't.

More detailed measurements by persons accessing even better technology and methods than NIST have shown that not only is there a period of "free fall" but for part of that period the acceleration was briefly higher than "G".

That throws the truthers into a twist given their near zero comprehension of free body physics. (BTW it is also beyond many debunkers also.) They coming from the belief that you cannot have "over G" without external applied force. Such is their limit of physics.

Bottom line is - any arguments claiming CD (or OHMI) and based on free fall are wrong. Ignore them - end of discussion. If you need more info I can provide it.
 
There is no evidence that the descent of the twin towers were at 64% of G... You are parroting nonsense you heard some else say or wrote and they were doing the same and so on. Where is the data to support this claim?

The only data I saw was on 911FF and it was that a portion of the collapse of 1wtc front was moving down at 65mph for 20 or 30 floors where it could be measured.
Ummm . . . what?
Sander is right. His reference to "911FF" means "the911forum" hosted on "freeforums.org" hence the "FF"

That forum is a source of much highly technical research data hosted on a forum that is seen as truther friendly - actually it tries and mostly succeeds at being neutral, objective and technically focussed.

However the extensive detailed data may be a lot more than you need. In that aspect either SanderO or I can assist you to find supporting evidence about free fall research...

...if you need it. Don't hesitate to ask.
 
Not so but it has a bit of sad history. The main point is that "free fall" is of little relevance in these sort of events.

..........................................................................................................................................................................

Bottom line is - any arguments claiming CD (or OHMI) and based on free fall are wrong. Ignore them - end of discussion. If you need more info I can provide it.

OK, Please enlighten me, in what way is FREE FALL a product of a natural, that is NOT CD "collapse"?
 
Bottom line is - any arguments claiming CD (or OHMI) and based on free fall are wrong. Ignore them - end of discussion.

No, I get that.
 
Not so but it has a bit of sad history. The main point is that "free fall" is of little relevance in these sort of events.

The truth movement has, with some partial success, set out creating a meme that "free fall" MEANS "CD" - AKA "OMHI" ["Other Malicious Human Interventions"] and is ONLY associated with CD/OHMI THEREFORE (by truther false logic) free-fall means CD or OHMI. It doesn't. simple as that - as an Aussie I would call it "faeces of a male bovine" expressed in one word but..... :roll:
....

Bottom line is - any arguments claiming CD (or OHMI) and based on free fall are wrong. Ignore them - end of discussion. If you need more info I can provide it.

Here's how their think goes...

If there is nothing to stop something it falls a G (free fall).

Buildings are things and if part of the thing were to fall at G then what was below that thing... part of the building has to be made to disappear so it offers no resistance to the free fall drop of the upper part of the building.

But there are some problems in this simplification of thinking. It's the columns (and transfer structures) which hold the building up. They are a tiny fraction of the area of the building/ In the twin towers the massive columns on floor 1 are only 0.008% of the total floor area.. At the 95th floor it drops to 0.0016%. You can see that a small mis alignment of the columns between the top and the bottom would mean there would be no load paths that is no resistance. When there is no resistance the top will drop at G. That is until it meets resistance. And what what it meet? That would be a puny 4.5" thick light weight concrete slab or the beams which supported the floor and connected them to the columns. YES it would resist in a bearable measurable amount to slowing down the descent. It's like dropping a bowling ball on a sheet of tissue paper. The ball does slow, but the amount is negligible. And guess what? None of the building below had to be made to disappear! A small lateral misalignment will result in a free fall drop. And that was possible because of the tilting of the top for the twin towers.

What about the 7WTC? The answer is what we see descending at G is the curtain wall (we can't see the guts of the building behind the facade. Look at any high rise building.. Can you see what's behind the facade? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. So what explains the free fall drop of the facade is the collapse of the support of the facade from floor 8 to the ground.. And what's going on down there? On the north wall the the curtain wall/ facade was supported on the ends of cantilevers... and those cantilevers had collapsed BEFORE when the transfer structures in the core collapsed (remember there was no guts behind the curtain wall. And on the east and west were braced frames... trusses which extended from the ground to floor 8... and they were connected to the same transfer structures which had collapsed. And the south side had a 5 story tall lobby with no bracing for the columns. Not much there to support the curtain wall / facade. It came down at close to free fall with some help from the floor system which snapped off.

If you look for an explanation, you can find it. Is this plausible? Could the transfer structures have been CDed? Possible. But you don't have to destroy 8 floors of 81 columns to produce the observed results. But it explains the mental gymnastics truthers go through to link motion to CD... in an impossible scenario which does not match the observations.
 
No, I get that.
Good. I'll leave you with it - however if you need more just ask.

That may be, but I don't know why he's barking at me about "64% of freefall."
I understood that. Sander has been involved in discussing the issue for a long time, over three forums that I am aware of. I suspected that he didn't make it clear enough why he was making some of the detailed comments such as the 64% bit. Which was one of the reasons I tried to give you a broad summary without writing hundreds of words - leaving it open for you to ask for more details of you needed them.

The key points I was introducing were - and still are:
A) Building collapses are the consequences of failure mechanisms where some initiating event leads to failure which leads to further failure ending up with either total or partial collapse.
B) The overall mechanism can involve free fall of some parts of the building>>> the occurrence of free fall depending on the overall mechanism of collapse and not what was the initiating event.
C) CD or OMHI is merely another form of initiation. It triggers a collapse mechanism but is not the only way that a collapse mechanism can be triggered.
D) THEREFORE the occurrence of free fall is not a distinguishing feature of CD versus "natural" OR any guarantee of CD.

All that free fall proves as part of a collapse mechanism is that the mechanism produced a bit of free fall. And that is circular -- free fall proves nothing about "CD" or "Not CD" as the initiator.

Then overlay all of that is where the dishonesty of the truth movement cuts in with their attempt to create the belief that free fall means CD, only occurs with CD, never occurs with "natural" collapse mechanisms. I seem to recall without checking back to previous posts that is where said the "faeces of the male bovine" comes in to play.

Occurrence of bits of fall at "About G" is not surprising and hardly worthy of comment for professional engineers or physicists. That is the "chink" where NIST seems to have got somewhat caught out by the dishonest manipulations of Chandler and followers.

Then add in the additional factor of "Over G" which is a bit more complicated to understand and seems to be "counter intuitive" for a lot of people including many who are otherwise OK with the physics.

Both "G" and "Over G" have been subject of extended discussions on other forums and that is another reason I hinted at more info available if you want/need it.
 
Good. I'll leave you with it - however if you need more just ask.


I understood that. Sander has been involved in discussing the issue for a long time, over three forums that I am aware of. I suspected that he didn't make it clear enough why he was making some of the detailed comments such as the 64% bit. Which was one of the reasons I tried to give you a broad summary without writing hundreds of words - leaving it open for you to ask for more details of you needed them.

The key points I was introducing were - and still are:
A) Building collapses are the consequences of failure mechanisms where some initiating event leads to failure which leads to further failure ending up with either total or partial collapse.
B) The overall mechanism can involve free fall of some parts of the building>>> the occurrence of free fall depending on the overall mechanism of collapse and not what was the initiating event.
C) CD or OMHI is merely another form of initiation. It triggers a collapse mechanism but is not the only way that a collapse mechanism can be triggered.
D) THEREFORE the occurrence of free fall is not a distinguishing feature of CD versus "natural" OR any guarantee of CD.

All that free fall proves as part of a collapse mechanism is that the mechanism produced a bit of free fall. And that is circular -- free fall proves nothing about "CD" or "Not CD" as the initiator.

Then overlay all of that is where the dishonesty of the truth movement cuts in with their attempt to create the belief that free fall means CD, only occurs with CD, never occurs with "natural" collapse mechanisms. I seem to recall without checking back to previous posts that is where said the "faeces of the male bovine" comes in to play.

Occurrence of bits of fall at "About G" is not surprising and hardly worthy of comment for professional engineers or physicists. That is the "chink" where NIST seems to have got somewhat caught out by the dishonest manipulations of Chandler and followers.

Then add in the additional factor of "Over G" which is a bit more complicated to understand and seems to be "counter intuitive" for a lot of people including many who are otherwise OK with the physics.

Both "G" and "Over G" have been subject of extended discussions on other forums and that is another reason I hinted at more info available if you want/need it.

No, I'm good.
 
OK, Please enlighten me, in what way is FREE FALL a product of a natural, that is NOT CD "collapse"?
Buildings collapse as the consequence of a collapse mechanism.

That mechanism involves something as an initiator and a sequence of component failures which follow and build up to either full or partial collapse.

The later components of the collapse mechanism follow the effect of earlier happenings - not the cause of the earlier happenings.

If removal of "Column X" is sufficient to initiate a complete collapse of the structure then the effect of removal of Column X is sufficient. And it matters not what was the cause of the removal of column X - whether by CD or by some other cause.

So collapse is not a differentiator between CD and Not CD.

Then free fall is one of the consequences of collapse which may occur depending on the details of the collapses mechanism. Those details arise from the actual collapse mechanism - not what initiated that mechanism.

Therefore free fall is not a differentiating factor between CD or Not CD.

And the same logic applies to "Over G" aspects which may be part of a collapse such as those which have been observed and measured for the collapse of the façade of WTC7.
 
dishonest manipulations of Chandler

OK, I'll byte, exactly what "dishonest" bit from Chandler?
You explain in detail what you mean.

Also, WHY should I believe YOU
on the subject of "Free fall not being important"
the fact is that in order to achieve free fall acceleration
ALL of the resistance would have to be removed out from
under the falling structure. Just exactly how is that done by "OFFICE FIRES"
 
OK, I'll byte, exactly what "dishonest" bit from Chandler?
You explain in detail what you mean.
Why should I jump to your bidding. you show zero commitment to reasoned discussion. Examine for yourself the history of the NIST attempt to assist Chandler and Chandler et al's subsequent dishonest misrepresentation of the events.

Remember that to prove "lie" or "dishonest" requires two elements of proof:
1) that the fact asserted by the claimant - in this case Chandler - is untrue; AND
2) That Chandler when making the statement knew it to be untrue.

"1)" By itself proves "untruthfulness"; AND "2)" Proves intent therefore, when combined with "1", proves liar or dishonest. What more do you want?

Whilst we are at it I also will not continue to fall for your burden of proof confusions. I have made a statement which prima facie is correct. If you want to dispute it then prove it wrong or prove the converse to be true. I care not which.

Now that disposes of "dishonesty" in the context of the single issue of the interaction with NIST over WTC7 collapse - until you or some other member rebuts the claim.

Judge for yourself whether or not Chandler is dishonest or merely untruthful out of ignorance of physics with his other claims. Post your findings of (say) his truthfulness in one other claim and we can see if you get it right.

And I have no intention of spoon feeding you the answers at high school level until you decide to engage in rational honest debate.

Why not start with the false claim you persist in making about "Global collapse" I have spoon fed you a first stage argument -- start there.
...Also, WHY should I believe YOU
on the subject of "Free fall not being important"...
You should by now be aware that I am not easily distracted by nonsense claims, evasions, snide insults or any other form of debating trickery. The issue is not about believing me although on matters of engineering and physics that would be a good starting point until you comprehend the issues.

The real point is that I have posted a reasoned explanation in response to your request. If you disagree then enter debate - prove me wrong and we can both learn. You asked a question. I responded. The opening words of your post should be "Thank you....":roll:

the fact is that in order to achieve free fall acceleration ALL of the resistance would have to be removed out from under the falling structure.
That is near enough and sufficiently ambiguous for our current purposes - so until we get above Grade 1 physics I will ride with it. Though I would have more fun explaining it at Grade 2-3-4 level where it is not true...but....

HOWEVER I will not fall for the evasion. The point of my previous post was explicitly clear:
Free fall occurs in both CD and so called "natural" collapses: AND
(Therefore) free fall is not a proof of CD.

Just exactly how is that done by "OFFICE FIRES"
Where in my post did I mention "OFFICE FIRES"???
 
HOWEVER I will not fall for the evasion. The point of my previous post was explicitly clear:
Free fall occurs in both CD and so called "natural" collapses: AND
(Therefore) free fall is not a proof of CD.

Where in my post did I mention "OFFICE FIRES"???

I invite you to cite an example of "free fall occurs in a "natural" collapse"

Also, you didn't have to mention "OFFICE FIRES" it is the official explanation by the NIST
as to the cause of the destruction of WTC7
 
Besides examples of controlled demolition, how many examples do we have to draw from in which a modern steel building exhibited a "natural collapse?"
 
About what you 2 were disagreeing on--the NIST report regarding WTC7 and the initial period of free fall.

Well, if the NIST report says it, then it says it. So what?
 
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