Common Descent

[spud_meister]

That is not true...the Bible record indicates that the universe, the starry heavens including the sun, as well as this planet earth, were created before the 1st of earth’s creative days began...the earth itself was not created during the 6 “days” of creation but was already created...then in preparing the earth itself for life...

Day 1...light appeared on the “watery deep” that enveloped the earth...

Day 2...the atmosphere was formed between two layers of water...

Day 3...the dry land gradually appeared, where Jehovah God created all types of vegetation, grasses, shrubs and trees....

Day 4...the luminaries, the sun and moon and stars, became visible from the earth’s surface for the 1st time...

Day 5...God created marine life and flying creatures...

Day 6...God created land animals and man...

What scripture do you use to inform your opinion that the sun was present before the 4th day? Or that their creation on the 4th day was a revelation rather than a genesis? Because I can't find anything that supports your interpretation in the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.+ 2 Now the earth was formless and desolate,* and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep,*+ and God’s active force*+ was moving about over the surface of the waters.+ 3 And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light.+ 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.

Here we have the creation of the heavens and of light, but certainly no mention of the sun.

Then God said: “Let there be luminaries*+ in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night,+ and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years.+ 15 They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God went on to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day+ and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars.

And here God uses the same "let there be" formula that he uses for the creation of everything else. There's nothing I see that indicates a revelation of the sun as opposed to a creation.

 

[Daisy]

What scripture do you use to inform your opinion that the sun was present before the 4th day? Or that their creation on the 4th day was a revelation rather than a genesis? Because I can't find anything that supports your interpretation in the Bible:


Here we have the creation of the heavens and of light, but certainly no mention of the sun.



And here God uses the same "let there be" formula that he uses for the creation of everything else. There's nothing I see that indicates a revelation of the sun as opposed to a creation.

Several scriptures refer to the sun/moon,/stars/constellations as being a part of the heavens...Deuteronomy 4:19; Isaiah 13:10; 1 Corinthians 15:40, 41; Hebrews 11:12...

 

[tosca1]

I have shown how Tour has no credibility in regard to intimate knowledge of evolution. He is a dilettante, like Trump in the presidency. I have also included an article from a BIOCHEMIST who refutes Tour on a point-by-point basis, but instead of acknowledging and responding to my inputs as written, you cherry pick individual statements and respond with rants. That is not moving the thread forward in a reasoned manner.

:roll:

Lol. You showed us that........................... you don't read!

You got that right. We aren't moving forward because you're stuck with your nonsense!

 

[tosca1]

What scripture do you use to inform your opinion that the sun was present before the 4th day?

The Bible!




Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.



n.
1. often heavens The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament.

 

[tosca1]

Here we have the creation of the heavens and of light, but certainly no mention of the sun.

No need to mention the sun. Heavenly bodies are part of the universe!
Don't forget, the Bible isn't meant to be a science text book! It simply gives a summary of creation, long before science and hi-tech existed...........AND IT JUST SO HAPPENS that it is compatible with MODERN science!


There are a couple of scientific interpretations that I know of:


1. Young earth was covered by gases and dense clouds which would've resulted in darkness over the earth's surface.
Darkness was over the surface of the deep The light from the sun couldn't get through.
"Let there be light," would be the light of the sun which had penetrated through that darkness.




2.

Parker argues that day four refers to the evolution of vision.

Until the first creatures on earth evolved eyes, in a sense, the sun and moon didn't exist. There was no creature on earth to see them, nor the light they cast.

When Genesis says: 'Let there be lights... To divide the day from the night,' it is talking about eyes.

'The very first eye on earth effectively turned on the lights for animal behaviour,' writes Professor Parker, 'and consequently for further rapid evolution.'

Almost overnight, life suddenly grew vastly more complex. Predators were able to hunt far more efficiently, and so prey had to evolve fast too - or get eaten.

The moment that there were 'lights', or eyes, then life exploded into all its infinite variety.

And yet again, that's what Genesis says happened, and in the correct environment too. In the sea.

The Genesis enigma: How DID the Bible describe the evolution of life 3,000 years before Darwin? | Daily Mail Online



lol. Isn't that something? Two scientific interpretations for that! :lol:

 

[watsup]

:roll:

Lol. You showed us that........................... you don't read!

You got that right. We aren't moving forward because you're stuck with your nonsense!

No need for me to respond directly to ad hom as it shows weakness on the part of the person stating it, not on the person on the receiving end.

 

[watsup]

That is not true...the Bible record indicates that the universe, the starry heavens including the sun, as well as this planet earth, were created before the 1st of earth’s creative days began...the earth itself was not created during the 6 “days” of creation but was already created...then in preparing the earth itself for life...

Day 1...light appeared on the “watery deep” that enveloped the earth...

Day 2...the atmosphere was formed between two layers of water...

Day 3...the dry land gradually appeared, where Jehovah God created all types of vegetation, grasses, shrubs and trees....

Day 4...the luminaries, the sun and moon and stars, became visible from the earth’s surface for the 1st time...

Day 5...God created marine life and flying creatures...

Day 6...God created land animals and man...

You are the one who is being INACCURATE regarding God creating the sun and the moon and the stars on DAY 4!
In Genesis in the Bible, the words "let there be" refer to the CREATION done by God.
And thus on the second day, God said Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and he called this firmament heaven. NOTHING is said about any moon or sun or stars. NOTHING.

And then we move to day 4 where in God said Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Lots of clues here that the moon and the earth and the stars were not "made" until then. He said "let there be" which indicates CREATION, just as it did when he said "let there be" ON EVERY OTHER DAY OF CREATION when he "made" something.

Your "explanation" holds no water at all.

 

[watsup]

The Bible!




Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.



n.
1. often heavens The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament.

Seen item #80 for rebuttal.

 

[zyzygy]

You are the one who is being INACCURATE regarding God creating the sun and the moon and the stars on DAY 4!
In Genesis in the Bible, the words "let there be" refer to the CREATION done by God.
And thus on the second day, God said Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and he called this firmament heaven. NOTHING is said about any moon or sun or stars. NOTHING.

And then we move to day 4 where in God said Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Lots of clues here that the moon and the earth and the stars were not "made" until then. He said "let there be" which indicates CREATION, just as it did when he said "let there be" ON EVERY OTHER DAY OF CREATION when he "made" something.

Your "explanation" holds no water at all.

And of course, the Moon is not a light but the primitives who wrote the bible did not know that. They thought that the Moon shone by its own device. Wrong. Just one of the many mistakes in the bible.

 

[Daisy]

You are the one who is being INACCURATE regarding God creating the sun and the moon and the stars on DAY 4!
In Genesis in the Bible, the words "let there be" refer to the CREATION done by God.
And thus on the second day, God said Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and he called this firmament heaven. NOTHING is said about any moon or sun or stars. NOTHING.

And then we move to day 4 where in God said Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Lots of clues here that the moon and the earth and the stars were not "made" until then. He said "let there be" which indicates CREATION, just as it did when he said "let there be" ON EVERY OTHER DAY OF CREATION when he "made" something.

Your "explanation" holds no water at all.

Deny the facts of the original words/meanings all you like...you cannot change the truth...the luminaries of the heavens were created when the earth itself was created...

 

[Cordelier]

And of course, the Moon is not a light but the primitives who wrote the bible did not know that. They thought that the Moon shone by its own device. Wrong. Just one of the many mistakes in the bible.

*LOL* I think anyone reading the Bible in hopes of gaining astronomical insights is going to be sorely disappointed, don't you? Of course, the same could be said of the famed naturalist E. O. Wilson's magnum opus, The Ants. Not much astronomy there... but it is the place to go to read about ants.

 

[watsup]

Deny the facts of the original words/meanings all you like...you cannot change the truth...the luminaries of the heavens were created when the earth itself was created...

Psychological projection. It is you who is denying facts, as I clearly show in my post #80. But that’s what Bible apologism is all about: backing and filling to try to fit a square peg into an obviously round whole. It just makes you look silly by trying to do so.

 

[watsup]

*LOL* I think anyone reading the Bible in hopes of gaining astronomical insights is going to be sorely disappointed, don't you? Of course, the same could be said of the famed naturalist E. O. Wilson's magnum opus, The Ants. Not much astronomy there... but it is the place to go to read about ants.

Just as the Bible is the place to go to read about the myths of Christianity.

 

[Daisy]

Psychological projection. It is you who is denying facts, as I clearly show in my post #80. But that’s what Bible apologism is all about: backing and filling to try to fit a square peg into an obviously round whole. It just makes you look silly by trying to do so.

lol...a Bible scholar, you're not...i will take their word for the truth over some armchair wannabe...

 

[Cordelier]

Just as the Bible is the place to go to read about the myths of Christianity.

Absolutely. But when you talk about mythology, I think a wise reader is always aware that every myth that stands the test of time - regardless of it's source - carries within it a grain of truth. Were it otherwise, why would we bother to remember them? It's to discern that hidden truth that is the point of remembering the story.

 

[zyzygy]

Absolutely. But when you talk about mythology, I think a wise reader is always aware that every myth that stands the test of time - regardless of it's source - carries within it a grain of truth. Were it otherwise, why would we bother to remember them? It's to discern that hidden truth that is the point of remembering the story.

I can discern not one grain of truth in Genesis.

 

[Cordelier]

I can discern not one grain of truth in Genesis.

Maybe it's because you're not looking for it?

"“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matthew 7:7-8

 

[zyzygy]

Maybe it's because you're not looking for it?

"“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matthew 7:7-8

I have looked for it. 'Bible tosh is Bible tosh'. Zyzygy 1:1

 

[Cordelier]

I have looked for it. 'Bible tosh is Bible tosh'. Zyzygy 1:1

I don't know what to tell you, Zyz. I don't care what the subject is that you're studying, if you don't approach it with an open mind, then it's not going to reveal any wisdom to you.

I'll be perfectly frank... when I look at all the collected mental energy that has focused on the study of the Bible for millennia - Roger Bacon, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Pelagius... the list goes on and on - recognized geniuses who devoted their lives to Biblical study... I don't know how a rational person can just dismiss it all as so much tosh. The pearls of generations of concerted study have been laid at your feet, and you just trod them into the mud. There are valuable lessons to be learned there - there is vast wisdom to be gained from any holy text that has withstood the test of time. And you don't even have to buy into the whole religion to learn them. They're there for the taking. There are deeper lessons there about the fundamentals of our nature, what it truly means to live a good and rewarding life - answers to some of the fundamental questions we share a common bond with throughout the generations who we join in our turn in seeking answers. And all it takes to learn them is having an open mind and the humility to understand that not all questions will have their answers in science alone. That there is a possibility - because that's what it is, a possibility - that there are deeper truths that transcend nature.

 

[watsup]

lol...a Bible scholar, you're not...i will take their word for the truth over some armchair wannabe...

More lame excuses because you can’t actually refute my post #80.
Point proven. You don’t actually think about this stuff. You just parrot the nonsense that you hear from others.

 

[watsup]

I don't know what to tell you, Zyz. I don't care what the subject is that you're studying, if you don't approach it with an open mind, then it's not going to reveal any wisdom to you.

I'll be perfectly frank... when I look at all the collected mental energy that has focused on the study of the Bible for millennia - Roger Bacon, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Pelagius... the list goes on and on - recognized geniuses who devoted their lives to Biblical study... I don't know how a rational person can just dismiss it all as so much tosh. The pearls of generations of concerted study have been laid at your feet, and you just trod them into the mud. There are valuable lessons to be learned there - there is vast wisdom to be gained from any holy text that has withstood the test of time. And you don't even have to buy into the whole religion to learn them. They're there for the taking. There are deeper lessons there about the fundamentals of our nature, what it truly means to live a good and rewarding life - answers to some of the fundamental questions we share a common bond with throughout the generations who we join in our turn in seeking answers. And all it takes to learn them is having an open mind and the humility to understand that not all questions will have their answers in science alone. That there is a possibility - because that's what it is, a possibility - that there are deeper truths that transcend nature.

It’s apologism. It’s coming up with the “belief” first and then tryIng to back in “reasons” to support it. It means nothing in the end. Science answers questions about nature. It’s a free country, so anyone can “believe” absolutely anything that they want, but that doesn’t mean that we have to buy into their myths and superstitions.

 

[Triton]

I don't know what to tell you, Zyz. I don't care what the subject is that you're studying, if you don't approach it with an open mind, then it's not going to reveal any wisdom to you.

I'll be perfectly frank... when I look at all the collected mental energy that has focused on the study of the Bible for millennia - Roger Bacon, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Pelagius... the list goes on and on - recognized geniuses who devoted their lives to Biblical study... I don't know how a rational person can just dismiss it all as so much tosh. The pearls of generations of concerted study have been laid at your feet, and you just trod them into the mud. There are valuable lessons to be learned there - there is vast wisdom to be gained from any holy text that has withstood the test of time. And you don't even have to buy into the whole religion to learn them. They're there for the taking. There are deeper lessons there about the fundamentals of our nature, what it truly means to live a good and rewarding life - answers to some of the fundamental questions we share a common bond with throughout the generations who we join in our turn in seeking answers. And all it takes to learn them is having an open mind and the humility to understand that not all questions will have their answers in science alone. That there is a possibility - because that's what it is, a possibility - that there are deeper truths that transcend nature.

Excellent position. Even though I am an atheist, I roll my eyes when people hold religion in the same regard as "invisible pink unicorns" and call scripture "fairy tales". It's simply unserious and displays a clear, non-constructive agenda.

 

[Daisy]

More lame excuses because you can’t actually refute my post #80.
Point proven. You don’t actually think about this stuff. You just parrot the nonsense that you hear from others.

And you draw stuff outta your rear end and expect people to believe you...I ain't doin' it...:roll:

 

[watsup]

Absolutely. But when you talk about mythology, I think a wise reader is always aware that every myth that stands the test of time - regardless of it's source - carries within it a grain of truth. Were it otherwise, why would we bother to remember them? It's to discern that hidden truth that is the point of remembering the story.

I’m not sure what you mean by grain of truth. Just because people repeat a myth does not make it any more truthful.
Freud: Religion is mass neuroses.
Marx: Religion is the opiate of the masses.
I agree.

 

[watsup]

And you draw stuff outta your rear end and expect people to believe you...I ain't doin' it...:roll:

Point proven again. My post #80 is perfectly logical and reasoned, and that is why you hide behind lame excuses and ad him instead of trying to defend your claim about the sun and the moon and the stars being there before the fourth day when your Bible clearly states otherwise.
Very same nonsense as the “eye of a needle” being a gate to a city instead of a REAL eye of needle. Backing and filling to make it what it’s not. Ridiculous.