Clearing Up The Christian Confusions About Our Doctrine

[tosca1]

This thread is meant to help clear up some confusions - usually between fellow-Christians - regarding our Christian Doctrine.
It's meant a thread for CHRISTIANS to provide help to others who seek information about the Christian doctrine.
It is a place that's meant to provide deeper explanations about specific incidental doctrinal issues brought up in other threads, thereby other threads will not be derailed.


This is not a thread to question the existence of God, or Jesus Christ.
This is not a thread to question the authenticity of the Bible.

 

[tosca1]

Did Abraham's example not show you what obedience looks like? Your argument was that God came in the form of Jesus Christ to show what obedience looks like.

[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

I reject your claim that the purpose of God being the Son is to show us what obedience looks like. Abraham showed obedience to God by being willing to sacrifice his son. Why did that fail to teach you what obedience looks like? "I?" What's this about..............."I?" I don't care what...

debatepolitics.com

There is a big difference between Abraham and Jesus Christ.
With Jesus - the teachings regarding obedience came with a special relationship with GOD.



Yes, Abraham showed what obedience looks like.
To whom?
TO JEWS!


Did his example work?
Were Jews after Abraham, became obedient to GOD?




To whom was Jesus showing the example of obedience in the New Testament?
Jews....................... and, GENTILES!


What kind of a relationship was Jesus trying to give example to: FATHER and SON.



With Jesus, our lesson is about how it's become a very PERSONAL relationship with us (individually), with GOD.

We don't need to go through priests or rabbis, or any other mediators. If we are in Christ, we become God's sons.
The emphasis is on our relationship between son and Father.




To whom did Jesus first gave the instruction to address God as "FATHER?"
To JEWS!


He instructed them to pray to GOD.............................. by addressing GOD as, FATHER!
That is a significant instruction!


Think of it as a, "how-to" instruction, for better results.




Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.


Romans 8:15-17
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him
in order that we may also be glorified with him.


2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[tosca1]

I hope the explanation above also settles the issue about how to better address GOD.
It's not to say that there is anything wrong with calling God by any other name or title.

BUT, taking it from our TEACHER, The ONE who ought to know the real score more than anyone else - there is something special about calling GOD, FATHER.
Especially when we're praying


For how can a loving Father not listen to a beseeching son?

 

[tosca1]

Still on the subject of Abraham's justification by FAITH.

I'm not referring to Abraham's faith; I clearly pointed to his obedience. It's self evident that one has to have faith in order to be obedient.

[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

I reject your claim that the purpose of God being the Son is to show us what obedience looks like. Abraham showed obedience to God by being willing to sacrifice his son. Why did that fail to teach you what obedience looks like? "I?" What's this about..............."I?" I don't care what...

debatepolitics.com

As I've indicated earlier in the other thread, Abraham was justified by his faith. His obedience was merely the "work," that has followed his faith.
It was his faith that justified him - not his obedience.
In simple terms......
Abraham, BELIEVED.



We first see the first interaction between God and Abraham in Genesis 12.



Genesis 12

The Call of Abram​

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.


2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him;



There was never any question asked.
Abraham has shown faith and trust in God, that he obeyed............................... without any question.

His obedience was the result of his utmost faith and trust in GOD.

 

[tosca1]

Still on the subject of Abraham's justification by FAITH.


Genesis 15
5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.




Abraham at that point did absolutely nothing but believe.
And Paul, and also James in his epistle, points out that was how Abraham achieved righteousness. He didn’t earn it, it was not on the basis of what he had done,
but it was credited to his faith. - Derek Prince







The same thing when God had told him to sacrifice his son, Isaac...............he didn't question it.

 

[tosca1]

Continuation:
Still on the subject of Abraham's justification by FAITH.




The same thing when God had told him to sacrifice his son, Isaac...............he didn't question it.


Genesis 22
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”


3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.
4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.
5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”


6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together,
7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”


8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.


9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

 

[tosca1]

Continuation:
Still on the subject of Abraham's justification by FAITH.



Please, take note of this part:



Genesis 22
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.


What did Abraham mean by that red-fonted statement?
It must mean that Abraham completely trusted in GOD, that he simply went along with the instructions without any question.


Wouldn't Abraham have asked God, "If I'm to be the father of many nations through my son, why am I killing him?"
He didn't have to. He knew nothing bad will happen to Isaac.
Why?
Because God had already told him about His covenant with Isaac!

Abraham was relying on God's covenant with him, and with Isaac!




Genesis 17
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah.
16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”


17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?”
18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”


19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.





How can there be any descendants of Isaac if Isaac would be sacrificed?
How can Abraham be a father of nations through Isaac?




God has made a covenant with him and Isaac!
Abraham, BELIEVED.

That's how faithful and trusting Abraham was towards GOD.

 

[tosca1]

Continuation:
Still on the subject of Abraham's justification by FAITH.


That kind of faith reminds me of a scene in Indiana Jones.......................except, not only were there no questions asked....................... Abraham never showed any hesitation!
God said, "do this!" BOOM! Abraham did it! Just like that.

 

[Overitall]

This thread is meant to help clear up some confusions - usually between fellow-Christians - regarding our Christian Doctrine.
It's meant a thread for CHRISTIANS to provide help to others who seek information about the Christian doctrine.
It is a place that's meant to provide deeper explanations about specific incidental doctrinal issues brought up in other threads, thereby other threads will not be derailed.


This is not a thread to question the existence of God, or Jesus Christ.
This is not a thread to question the authenticity of the Bible.

Would you like company or are you just preaching?

 

[MamboDervish]

Among my contemplated New Year's resolutions is to make an effort to give more people on DB the benefit of the doubt. Considering that the world now has well over 1,200 different "Christian" denominations, all claiming adherence to their interpretation of the same ancient and often contradictory text, it strikes me as both arrogant and highly presumptive for you to take it upon yourself to define what "Christian doctrine" is or should be. Seriously, what special qualifications do you claim for your views on the subject?

 

[nota bene]

Would you like company or are you just preaching?

After 8 successive posts by the OP, good question.

 

[Overitall]

After 8 successive posts by the OP, good question.

I've been taught not to interrupt someone speaking. I, therefore, had to ask.

 

[Overitall]

Among my contemplated New Year's resolutions is to make an effort to give more people on DB the benefit of the doubt. Considering that the world now has well over 1,200 different "Christian" denominations, all claiming adherence to their interpretation of the same ancient and often contradictory text, it strikes me as both arrogant and highly presumptive for you to take it upon yourself to define what "Christian doctrine" is or should be. Seriously, what special qualifications do you claim for your views on the subject?

I'm pretty sure @tosca1 is not the subject of the thread. Don't you have anything to say about the actual subject?

 

[MamboDervish]

I'm pretty sure @tosca1 is not the subject of the thread.

Point taken. But it's obvious to me that "the subject of the thread" is precisely as described, which is what prompted my questions - in her presumption to speak for what is and what isn't "christian doctrine", it is tosca1 who has made herself the subject of this thread.

Don't you have anything to say about the actual subject?

If you mean the ensuing chapter and verse, NO. I don't, if only in an effort to adhere to the intention of the OP stated in the first post - #1. She asked that this not be a thread to question the authenticity of the bible, which I certainly do. Since the first time I read it over 50 years ago, I have never considered the author of the Universe to be the author of that book. The Creator of the Cosmos is not a misogynist - the authors of the bible certainly were. So whenever I'm faced with direct chapter and verse from that source, I immediately recognize it as coming from a book written by men, about men, and for men - which, as you might suspect, prevents me from falling into the abyss of attempting to engage in any scholarship on the subject.

What we historically describe as "bible study" is a cul-de-sac with no road out, and my life is too precious to waste it driving into dead ends.

 

[Daisy]

@tosca1, I am so sorry you are feeling confused...hopefully things will become clearer for you in time....

 

[ataraxia]

Considering that the world now has well over 1,200 different "Christian" denominations,

I don’t think we have an exact figure, but I suspect that number is a gross underestimation.

“A recent compilation lists 33,089 Christian denominations world-wide”

World Christianity, Christianity Studies - Wesleyan University

www.wesleyan.edu

“All told, there are an estimated 35,496 independent or non-denominational churches according to ARDA.”

Just How Many Protestant Denominations Are There? | National Catholic Register

 

[MamboDervish]

I don’t think we have an exact figure, but I suspect that number is a gross underestimation.

“A recent compilation lists 33,089 Christian denominations world-wide”

World Christianity, Christianity Studies - Wesleyan University

www.wesleyan.edu

“All told, there are an estimated 35,496 independent or non-denominational churches according to ARDA.”

Just How Many Protestant Denominations Are There? | National Catholic Register

Thanks for the update and the link. I suspected my reference was outdated and abysmally low because I've been using the same number for the past decade.

 

[butterfly]

This thread is meant to help clear up some confusions - usually between fellow-Christians - regarding our Christian Doctrine.
It's meant a thread for CHRISTIANS to provide help to others who seek information about the Christian doctrine.
It is a place that's meant to provide deeper explanations about specific incidental doctrinal issues brought up in other threads, thereby other threads will not be derailed.


This is not a thread to question the existence of God, or Jesus Christ.
This is not a thread to question the authenticity of the Bible.

When you say "our" Christian doctrine are you referring to a particular denomination? Some Christian faiths are not doctrinal.

 

[tosca1]

Would you like company or are you just preaching?

Read the OP.


Mind you.........it might just well all by me - unless someone wants to pitch in - no problemo.
I had no problem with ANSWERS TO ATHEIST NONSENSE, have I?

That's similar concept with this.
If I find an issue somewhere, it can get expanded on this thread.

 

[tosca1]

When you say "our" Christian doctrine are you referring to a particular denomination? Some Christian faiths are not doctrinal.

I'm referring to the Christian doctrine taken from mainstream reputable Bibles (that are recommended, or used by scholars).

There's hardly any difference as far as God's message is concerned on most of these bibles.

 

[notquiteright]

This thread is meant to help clear up some confusions - usually between fellow-Christians - regarding our Christian Doctrine.
It's meant a thread for CHRISTIANS to provide help to others who seek information about the Christian doctrine.
It is a place that's meant to provide deeper explanations about specific incidental doctrinal issues brought up in other threads, thereby other threads will not be derailed.


This is not a thread to question the existence of God, or Jesus Christ.
This is not a thread to question the authenticity of the Bible.

Terminology can be confusing.

I've heard of church doctrine and biblical doctrine. What is church doctrine???

 

[tosca1]

After 8 successive posts by the OP, good question.

Is there anything wrong with making 8 successive posts?
Why are you counting?



If it's my thread, and I've got lots of points to throw on one particular issue - why is that a problem?'

It's hard to condense everything into one. Word count doesn't allow it.
Especially so if this thread is meant to CLEAR UP CONFUSIONS - it better be explained as full as we can!
As much as we can - we should make things clear.
That means - it could very well be a long........................................... "wall of text!"

Furthermore, not everything came to me all at once.

 

[notquiteright]

I'm referring to the Christian doctrine taken from mainstream reputable Bibles (that are recommended, or used by scholars).

There's hardly any difference as far as God's message is concerned on most of these bibles.

I was just that much too slow, so biblical scripture...

 

[tosca1]

redundant.

 

[notquiteright]

redundant.

dodge