Classic Southern AZ stupidity

[Lutherf]

2 lions, 2 sheep moved to Tucson's Catalina Mountains now dead

Numerous Tucson residents have written letters and contacted the Arizona Daily Star to decry the transplant plan and the likely killing of mountain lions for doing what predators do — preying on animals such as bighorns.

So F&G collects a couple of dozen critters from the Yuma area and transplants them here (we already have small populations of both lions and sheep) then when the lions are suspected of killing the sheep F&G decides to shoot the lions.

I have to ask myself.....WTF!!!

What the hell did they expect the lions to eat? Mesquite beans?

I'm a big fan of having critters in the mountains. It makes hikes more entertaining when you spot a bighorn or a bear or a mountain lion. I also don't have a big problem with taking out certain predators when they start getting a hankering for domestic animals but taking them out because they're going after wild sheep......? That's just nuts.

 

[lizzie]

People who can't deal with the reality of nature, shouldn't be trying to control it. It seems to end up badly for all concerned.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Game management needs to be based on science, not on politics or feelings. Animals are not people. Wild animals are not pets.

In California, the feel good environmentalists outlawed hunting mountain lions some time ago. The result? Fewer deer, and much difficulty reestablishing bighorns in the Sierra. Go figure. This year, they've outlawed hunting bears with dogs. Likely outcome? More bears, of course, and more breaking into cars and cabins.

 

[Lutherf]

Game management needs to be based on science, not on politics or feelings. Animals are not people. Wild animals are not pets.

In California, the feel good environmentalists outlawed hunting mountain lions some time ago. The result? Fewer deer, and much difficulty reestablishing bighorns in the Sierra. Go figure. This year, they've outlawed hunting bears with dogs. Likely outcome? More bears, of course, and more breaking into cars and cabins.

Our herds of deer and sheep in this area have diminished substantially in the 20 or so years I've been out here due to a major fire and a few years of dryer than normal weather. I figure that the relocation was a good idea since regrowth after the fire has been excellent. If the lions were taken out to allow the herd a couple of years to develop I can understand that but, to the best of my knowledge, we don't have a significant problem with over predation in this area. If the lions out here are running out of javalina and rabbits it's news to me.

 

[APACHERAT]

Game management needs to be based on science, not on politics or feelings. Animals are not people. Wild animals are not pets.

In California, the feel good environmentalists outlawed hunting mountain lions some time ago. The result? Fewer deer, and much difficulty reestablishing bighorns in the Sierra. Go figure. This year, they've outlawed hunting bears with dogs. Likely outcome? More bears, of course, and more breaking into cars and cabins.

Before the stupid people in California went to the polls and voted to outlaw mountain lion hunting in the state, big horn sheep were found throughout the San Gabriel Mountains north of L.A. from the San Fernando Valley to the west to I-15 and the San Bernardino Mountains to the east.

Within a decade the big horn sheep disappeared and can now only be found in the San Gabriels from the San Gabriel River above Azusa going east to the I-15. The lions ate them all. Also the Mule deer population was also devastated in many areas. The lions also ate them.

Just adding a couple of mountain lions into an area is enough to throw the entire environmental system whacky. It's not nice for environmental tree hugging whackos to be messing with mother nature.

 

[Master PO]

2 lions, 2 sheep moved to Tucson's Catalina Mountains now dead



So F&G collects a couple of dozen critters from the Yuma area and transplants them here (we already have small populations of both lions and sheep) then when the lions are suspected of killing the sheep F&G decides to shoot the lions.

I have to ask myself.....WTF!!!

What the hell did they expect the lions to eat? Mesquite beans?

I'm a big fan of having critters in the mountains. It makes hikes more entertaining when you spot a bighorn or a bear or a mountain lion. I also don't have a big problem with taking out certain predators when they start getting a hankering for domestic animals but taking them out because they're going after wild sheep......? That's just nuts.

Lutherf, ...i find your postings very often entertaining, and get be a little spring in my spirit from them,....thanks!

 

[Gimmesometruth]

2 lions, 2 sheep moved to Tucson's Catalina Mountains now dead



So F&G collects a couple of dozen critters from the Yuma area and transplants them here (we already have small populations of both lions and sheep) then when the lions are suspected of killing the sheep F&G decides to shoot the lions.

I have to ask myself.....WTF!!!

What the hell did they expect the lions to eat? Mesquite beans?

I'm a big fan of having critters in the mountains. It makes hikes more entertaining when you spot a bighorn or a bear or a mountain lion. I also don't have a big problem with taking out certain predators when they start getting a hankering for domestic animals but taking them out because they're going after wild sheep......? That's just nuts.

No Luther, we did not have populations of Big Horn in the Catalinas, they have been extinct in our mountains since the 90's.....hence the reason for the 5 year reintroduction plan here. G&F knew when the BH were killed (they were wearing transponders), could tell the attacks were from ML, and was confirmed on autopsy of the cats. If you want to see BH on your hikes in the Catalinas, then you should support the effort to reintro them into the next best habitat in AZ.

 

[CanadaJohn]

2 lions, 2 sheep moved to Tucson's Catalina Mountains now dead



So F&G collects a couple of dozen critters from the Yuma area and transplants them here (we already have small populations of both lions and sheep) then when the lions are suspected of killing the sheep F&G decides to shoot the lions.

I have to ask myself.....WTF!!!

What the hell did they expect the lions to eat? Mesquite beans?

I'm a big fan of having critters in the mountains. It makes hikes more entertaining when you spot a bighorn or a bear or a mountain lion. I also don't have a big problem with taking out certain predators when they start getting a hankering for domestic animals but taking them out because they're going after wild sheep......? That's just nuts.

The same type of person who brings you this idiocy is the same type of person who will join a PETA protest march.

 

[Lutherf]

No Luther, we did not have populations of Big Horn in the Catalinas, they have been extinct in our mountains since the 90's.....hence the reason for the 5 year reintroduction plan here. G&F knew when the BH were killed (they were wearing transponders), could tell the attacks were from ML, and was confirmed on autopsy of the cats. If you want to see BH on your hikes in the Catalinas, then you should support the effort to reintro them into the next best habitat in AZ.

There used to be a family of them up in the Pusch Ridge area and another in the Sycamore Reservoir area. Granted, it's been years since I've seen any but we'd definitely run into them from time to time.

I have no problem with moving the sheep from Yuma to the Catalinas. I actually LIKE the idea. I am not, however, such a big fan of killing off the mountain lions who are also natural residents of this area...at least not unless the population is getting out of hand.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

There used to be a family of them up in the Pusch Ridge area and another in the Sycamore Reservoir area. Granted, it's been years since I've seen any but we'd definitely run into them from time to time.

Not since the 1990's.

I have no problem with moving the sheep from Yuma to the Catalinas. I actually LIKE the idea. I am not, however, such a big fan of killing off the mountain lions who are also natural residents of this area...at least not unless the population is getting out of hand.

The plan is not to "kill off" the mountain lion population.

Stop making such silly, ignorant argument.

 

[Lutherf]

Not since the 1990's.

The plan is not to "kill off" the mountain lion population.

Stop making such silly, ignorant argument.

Not seeing sheep in the last 10 years or so makes sense since the fires messed up a lot of their habitat but WRT the lions...which ones are they killing off then? Only the ones that like to snack on sheep? How do you propose one goes about making that determination?

To the best of my knowledge we don't have an unsustainably large cat population so they shouldn't be a huge deterrent to rebuilding the sheep population. Of course there will be some predation but the cats aren't going to all of a sudden change their diet just because something new to eat pops up.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Not seeing sheep in the last 10 years or so makes sense since the fires messed up a lot of their habitat but WRT the lions...which ones are they killing off then? Only the ones that like to snack on sheep? How do you propose one goes about making that determination?

Uh...G&F successfully made that decision as I previously stated.

To the best of my knowledge we don't have an unsustainably large cat population so they shouldn't be a huge deterrent to rebuilding the sheep population. Of course there will be some predation but the cats aren't going to all of a sudden change their diet just because something new to eat pops up.

Uh, obviously when BH are reintroed, and the cats DO kill them....for food.....the cats HAVE changed their diets to the new prey.....uh....duh.

The plan is to get a sustainable population of BH established....with the fore-knowledge that some cats will be culled to allow the establishment.

 

[Lutherf]

Uh...G&F successfully made that decision as I previously stated.

Uh, obviously when BH are reintroed, and the cats DO kill them....for food.....the cats HAVE changed their diets to the new prey.....uh....duh.

The plan is to get a sustainable population of BH established....with the fore-knowledge that some cats will be culled to allow the establishment.

But F&G isn't making a determination of how many cats will be killed. The way it is now if they find a dead sheep with signs that a cat took it they go out and kill a cat to make up for it.

Sheep are natural prey for cats but these cats aren't going to switch to an all sheep diet. A hungry cat is going to go after what it can get whether it's rabbits, javalina, deer or sheep. Predation happens. If the sheep are going to be able to build a strong population they need to be able to deal with their environment. Making that environment unnaturally safe for them doesn't help.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

But F&G isn't making a determination of how many cats will be killed. The way it is now if they find a dead sheep with signs that a cat took it they go out and kill a cat to make up for it.

Seriously....you believe that this 5 year reintroduction plan.....has not made calculations on the number of cats that might have to be killed to allow the re-establishment? You think they just do this in the fly?

Sheep are natural prey for cats but these cats aren't going to switch to an all sheep diet.

I never said they would.

A hungry cat is going to go after what it can get whether it's rabbits, javalina, deer or sheep. Predation happens. If the sheep are going to be able to build a strong population they need to be able to deal with their environment. Making that environment unnaturally safe for them doesn't help.

Now, suddenly, without explanation, you supposedly have calculated what is the ratio of cats in the Pusch Ridge Wilderness (PRW) , Santa Catalina Mountains to BHS....and know what is "unnatural"!

Amazing! Is this an area of expertise you can back-up with cited studies you have published?

 

[rhinefire]

Why are circus elephants killed after they attack?????

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

It is a natural cycle

If there are lot of prey, then the predator population will grow. Then when the prey is diminished in population the mountain lions will diminish in population as well. There is no need to hunt them as their population will drop through a natural cycle

 

[Grand Mal]

But F&G isn't making a determination of how many cats will be killed. The way it is now if they find a dead sheep with signs that a cat took it they go out and kill a cat to make up for it.

Sheep are natural prey for cats but these cats aren't going to switch to an all sheep diet. A hungry cat is going to go after what it can get whether it's rabbits, javalina, deer or sheep. Predation happens. If the sheep are going to be able to build a strong population they need to be able to deal with their environment. Making that environment unnaturally safe for them doesn't help.

I don't get why it all requires engineering. Here (British Columbia) there's a healthy population of cougars (insert middle-aged women joke) and there's no problem with them threatening the survival of prey species. They are occasionally a danger to people- especially, for some reason, on Vancouver Island- but no-one has ever suggested they're killing too many deer or sheep or golden retrievers or whatever. Maybe some people think nothing can run smoothly without being managed.