• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Class Warfare"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well the numbers disagree with that, but I'll give you a pass.



Okay. Propose some military cuts.

Cut it back to what is was when we reduced our deficit the last time, to about $250 billion a year. And we would still be the biggest spenders on military on the planet.
 
Both are problem and we can't significantly address our debt without doing both. The one and only time we did in the last 30 years is when we did both.

Being 62 years old, I never really thought I would live long enough to see the idea that only one side of a budget needs to be dealt with. Somehow, someway we have fallen down the rabbit hole into a fantasy land populated by zealots and fantatics who believe that the Bookkeeping 101 text which shows both INCOME and EXPENDITURES is somehow on a par with Das Kapital.
 
Cut it back to what is was when we reduced our deficit the last time, to about $250 billion a year. And we would still be the biggest spenders on military on the planet.

What I mean is, propose some military expenses you think need to be cut.

I'm completely open to cutting military just not blindly cutting it.
 
Increase the wealthy tax rate to what? What do you feel would be an appropriate level of taxation before we start cutting spending to make up the difference?

Didn't you just see that he said both spending cuts and tax increases? And you have it backwards. We decide what spending levels we must have to set the tax rates.
 
Didn't you just see that he said both spending cuts and tax increases? And you have it backwards. We decide what spending levels we must have to set the tax rates.

Sorry.

Alright, so let's stop talking about taxes for now and talk about spending. Deal?
 
Last edited:
That's a straw man. I never said not to do that. I merely said that it isn't enough. You and others are neglecting to talk about the additional measures that need to be taken.

Yes, we also need to upgrade our health care system as the rest of the industrialized world has done to cut our health care costs in half.
 
It was poorly written, but I understood it. Let me give you another example. The Tea Party says that they're doing what's best for the economy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing what's best for the economy. If someone opposes the Tea Party, does that mean that they want a bad economy? Of course not, it just means that you disagree about which policies are good for the economy.
The Tea Party is merely an example of addlepated right-wing cognitive dissonance. They complain about taxes and spending being too high at a time when taxes and spending are falling. The simple facts meanwhile are that nearly everything that the Tea Party proclaims would be good for the economy would actually be bad for the economy. The debate with them is not whether chicken or fish would be the better basis for a healthy diet, but rather whether chicken or radioactive waste would.

Nowadays, some people are saying that the pie needs to be divided more evenly, and almost all of those people are claiming to be advocates for the middle class, but there are many of us who believe that that will hurt the middle class by making the pie smaller.
How would these people explain the failure of the Bush Tax Cuts for the Rich? Are they not aware that transfering large amounts of wealth to the already wealthy acts as a brake on the economy by marginally reducing the velocity of money? Do they fail also to understand that even the small adjustment of m\oving back to the tax rates of the late 1990's for the top two brackets would have a significant impact in reversing that error?

The Cold War taught us that large doses of socialism do tremendous harm...
LOL! Socialism had nothing to do with it. The Cold War may have taught us that command economies tend not to be very effective or efficient, but how many people had you seen running around calling for one those anyway? Socialism meanwhile continues to be a hallmark of EVERY economy you can name. The only modern difference is one of degree.

...and Western Europe taught us that small doses of socialism do minor harm.
By helping to turn their societies into some of the nicest and happiest in the world?

Just look at the data; the US has a much higher standard of living than Europe, yet some people still insist that the US needs to be more like Europe.
Is that the only bit of data we should look at? What if we have a particular problem, and they have already found the perfect solution for it? Should we ignore it because adopting it would make us more like Europe and we have a higher standard of living than they do? That wouldn't make any sense to me.
 
Last edited:
net tax payers have certainly more credibility attacking those who pander to net tax consumers than the other way around
Keep in mind that my wealth, like my background, training, experience, and intelligence in these matters, exceeds yours.
 
Last edited:
What I mean is, propose some military expenses you think need to be cut.

I'm completely open to cutting military just not blindly cutting it.

Decade long optional wars for "nation building".

Most of our military bases around the world, especially in places like Japan and Germany who should be able to take care of themselves at this point

Non replacement of nuclear weapons until we get down to a point where we only have a couple hundred, rather than thousands.

As planned already, cut the number of ground troops, since multiple wars on the ground are not likely to occur in the foreseeable future.

Those are the big items I see.
 
Sorry.

Alright, so let's stop talking about taxes for now and talk about spending. Deal?

One without the other doesn't address our deficit significantly.
 
Just a wee bit tired of the same old dishonest talking points:

How would these people explain the failure of the Bush Tax Cuts for the Rich?

They were not just "for the rich."

Are they not aware that transfering large amounts of wealth to the already wealthy--

Tax cuts are not direct wealth transfers.
 
Obama claims to be FOR the middle class, but a very high % of people disapprove of his handling of the economy.
On what grounds? Are these people who can balance their own checkbook or are they the same old Magic Wand people who wanted him to kiss it all better as soon as he was sworn into office?
 
One without the other doesn't address our deficit significantly.

But you just said we decide taxes based on spending. So how can we talk about taxes when we haven't even established a fair level of spending?
 
Many middle class people have a 401k, so an increase in the capital gains tax could be interpreted as class warfare against the middle class.
When did you last pay taxes on the capital gains in your 401-k?
 
Yes, I realize that 50% is higher than what we have now, and I'm not completely opposed to any tax increase ever, but I am opposed to demonizing the rich and I worry about how it will affect me and the rest of the middle class.
No one is demonizing the rich. But they sure are laughing at you for being worried about what a hard time they are having.
 
Both are problem and we can't significantly address our deficit without doing both. The one and only time we did reduce the deficit significantly in the last 30 years is when we did both.
If we bring the tax rates back to where they were in the 90s, they'll be LESS progressive, not more progressive.
 
Yes, we also need to upgrade our health care system as the rest of the industrialized world has done to cut our health care costs in half.
Repealing Obamacare would be a huge step toward balancing the budget.
 
Outlays are the problem, not revenues.
Wrong. Outlays are in line with post-WWII historical trends. Receipts are WAY out of skew.
 
Repealing Obamacare would be a huge step toward balancing the budget.

I see you understand "Obamacare".
How will it save us money?- I am asking this sincerely.
 
Last edited:
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
I don't know. I always found these a little more scary...

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do.
-- Ronald Reagan

And that's only seven words.
 
I'm willing to start there and I'm willing to make major cuts, but even if we completely eliminated military spending, we wouldn't be close to balancing the budget. If you eliminate the Bush tax cuts for the top bracket, and leave the other brackets alone, we're still light years away from a balanced budget.
We HAD a balanced budget in 2001. Why did the idiots mess with it?
 
The real solution is to increase taxes on the wealthy and cut spending.
The real solution is to increase revenues sufficiently to come within hailing distance of outlays. Outlays are a given. There is no waste, fraud, and abuse. There is no bloat, no fat, no pork that you can cut that will amount to a hill of beans. The outlays curve is practically constant over time. It is the revenue curve that shifts around, either causing or solving problems. If we can't get revenues repaired, we simply continue to run huge deficits.
 
Being 62 years old, I never really thought I would live long enough to see the idea that only one side of a budget needs to be dealt with. Somehow, someway we have fallen down the rabbit hole into a fantasy land populated by zealots and fantatics who believe that the Bookkeeping 101 text which shows both INCOME and EXPENDITURES is somehow on a par with Das Kapital.
Yes, these are the fruits of a 30-year right-wing investment in creating an alternative information media of their own. First, one that could influence other media, then one that could dominate them. These days, they push out the most ridiculous malarkey, and still there are still those who will slop it all up. Doesn't say much for democracy, at least not American style.
 
Just a wee bit tired of the same old dishonest talking points:
They were not just "for the rich."
LOL! When I get five figures up front while the average guy gets maybe enough for a decent dinner out, and then my part grows each year while his part shrinks, that was a tax cut for the rich. About 50% of the annual benefits of provisions still in effect accrue to the top 1%. I guess that's cool by you because not 100% goes to the top 1%.

Tax cuts are not direct wealth transfers.
Yes, they are. When Bush arrived, the top 1% were paying 25 cents out of every dollar of AGI in federal income taxes. He cut that to less than 21 cents. That's four cents and change out of every dollar in direct wealth to the already wealthy. Then there was the huge increase in income share that went to the top 1% on top of all that.
 
If we bring the tax rates back to where they were in the 90s, they'll be LESS progressive, not more progressive.
The proposal affects only the top two brackets. The 35% marginal rate on taxable income above $379,150 would become 39.6%. The 33% marginal rate on AGI between $212,300 and $379,150 would become 35%. For many, their actual tax bill would not change because even with the increase in their 1040 tax calculations, their AMT calculations would still produce a higher number.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom