Christian secularists

[ChezC3]

Then you would look entirely foolish if you were to do so. A secular state is neutral toward religion or non-religion alike.

and thats what communism's end would achieve...

better brush up on your Leftist studies...

 

[Paleocon]

The majority of the governments in the history of the world were also monarchies. Not exactly a wise arguments.



You need to understand that I don't follow your tribalist mentality. I may be an atheist, but I don't share the viewpoints of the USSR or China. I believe in freedom of religion and I put a christian who shares that belief before an atheist who does not.

Its you who must defend the actions of the Soviet Union, as they follow your philosophy simply with a different label on top.

Please at least try to keep up. You asserted that the idea of a confessional state is "pedantic nonsense", thus my reply. And yes my reply also applies to monarchies, the idea of monarchy isn't "pedantic nonsense" either.

Nice try. You made the claim that confessional states are more violent than secular ones, I disproved that claim and now you're trying to commit a "No True Scotsman" fallacy by implying that violent governments weren't really secular.

 

[Manc Skipper]

and thats what communism's end would achieve...

better brush up on your Leftist studies...

There's none so blind....

 

[rathi]

Please at least try to keep up. You asserted that the idea of a confessional state is "pedantic nonsense", thus my reply. And yes my reply also applies to monarchies, the idea of monarchy isn't "pedantic nonsense" either.

There is no meaningful difference between a confessional state and a theocracy. When Mohammed was alive he ruled a theocracy, when he died the Caliphate became a confessional state. Nothing changed but the label.

Nice try. You made the claim that confessional states are more violent than secular ones, I disproved that claim and now you're trying to commit a "No True Scotsman" fallacy by implying that violent governments weren't really secular.

No, I claimed that confessional states are more oppressive than ones with freedom of religion.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Do you not understand the definition of words? There is a difference between a theocracy and a confessional state.

The secular Soviet Union killed over one hundred and ten million people.

Logical Fallacies» ‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy

No that does not apply. Not even close.

First it was the atheist USSR killed 110 million. Now the war cry is the secular USSR has killed 110 million. Next you will be claiming Hitler and the nazis were secular.

Secularism is religious neutrality.
Communism is replaced religion with the state.

See the difference now?



INTERESTING OBSERVATION:
As I am looking through various bits of the internet for information for this thread, I am finding very curious new wiki definitions.
All of which have this disclaimer:

This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2011)

Is confessional state a new coined term, the new buzz word from the catholic camp akin to intelligent design? Just wondering. IIRC this is the third page I have come across is researching information for this thread. :aliens3:

I wonder if I can find the term used prior to Jan 2011. Vox Nova discusses the term in Feb 2011. Now my spider senses are tingling...

 

[RogueWarrior]

and thats what communism's end would achieve...

better brush up on your Leftist studies...

communism was never neutral versus religion. Religion was competition for the loyalties of its citizens.

 

[ChezC3]

communism was never neutral versus religion. Religion was competition for the loyalties of its citizens.

I think you and the Guv'nor are mistaking the leading up to for what the end result was suppose to be.

 

[ChezC3]

There's none so blind....

Well, lift that patch off your eye old boy and have a look see...

 

[Goshin]

Ok hold up... do we have a precise definition of what exactly a confessional state IS? That might help.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Ok hold up... do we have a precise definition of what exactly a confessional state IS? That might help.

that is what I was looking up and found a very sparse wiki page with the disclaimer.
it is the new buzz phrase.
Paleocon needs to define some terms. Otherwise we will taking around in circles because of unclear terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_state

The author of the page is probably an American RC.

 

[Paleocon]

There is no meaningful difference between a confessional state and a theocracy. When Mohammed was alive he ruled a theocracy, when he died the Caliphate became a confessional state. Nothing changed but the label.




No, I claimed that confessional states are more oppressive than ones with freedom of religion.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

No that does not apply. Not even close.

First it was the atheist USSR killed 110 million. Now the war cry is the secular USSR has killed 110 million. Next you will be claiming Hitler and the nazis were secular.

Secularism is religious neutrality.
Communism is replaced religion with the state.

See the difference now?



INTERESTING OBSERVATION:
As I am looking through various bits of the internet for information for this thread, I am finding very curious new wiki definitions.
All of which have this disclaimer:



Is confessional state a new coined term, the new buzz word from the catholic camp akin to intelligent design? Just wondering. IIRC this is the third page I have come across is researching information for this thread. :aliens3:

I wonder if I can find the term used prior to Jan 2011. Vox Nova discusses the term in Feb 2011. Now my spider senses are tingling...

State atheism is a subset of secularism, unless you're asserting that atheism is a religion.

You caught me. Three years ago I anticipated we would be having this conversation so I made all that up and posted it on the Wikipedia page.

Ok hold up... do we have a precise definition of what exactly a confessional state IS? That might help.

A state with an official religion.

 

[Monserrat]

Despite their constituting the majority of Christians, Christian secularists (that is those who are Christians, who believe that the government should be neutral in religious matters) still boggle my mind. Claiming on the one hand that Christianity is the true religion, but on the other that the government should be neutral towards religion. I'm creating this thread as a discussion of confessionalism vs. secularism.

I'm intending this as a discussion which presupposes the existence of religious truth and which is about how that should influence civil government, obviously atheists, agnostics, deists, and the like will support secularism, but that is uninteresting, this discussion should be between confessionalism and Christian secularists, not the irreligious.

As this is to be a general discussion of confessionalism versus secularism, and not of which religion is correct, if you're a Muslim, a Bhuddist, or belong to some other religion which teaches that every person objectively ought to convert, then please feel free to jump in with your opinions either way, although again this is intended as a discussion of confessionalism vs. secularism in general, not of which religion is correct/which religion should be supported by the state. When the poll says "not Christian" it's referring only to those who are members of some type of missionary religion.

Why does it boggle your mind that a Christian might not want the government to favor Christianity in rule and laws? There are too many Christian denominations out there that have some very crazy screwed up notions regarding religion and the last thing I would want is to give them any more control then they might already have over the government. The only way to protect everybody and to really preserve Christianity is by having the government be completely separate from it.

 

[Paleocon]

Specifically for any Catholic secularists out there:

THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX

See the 77th error.

 

[Goshin]

A state with an official religion.

Well if we go by Europe in general and England in particular, it looks like the best way to destroy a religion is to make it the official and state-supported religion.


Erm.... not really what I wanted...

 

[Paleocon]

Why does it boggle your mind that a Christian might not want the government to favor Christianity in rule and laws? There are too many Christian denominations out there that have some very crazy screwed up notions regarding religion and the last thing I would want is to give them any more control then they might already have over the government. The only way to protect everybody and to really preserve Christianity is by having the government be completely separate from it.

See the syllabus of errors, errors 55 and 77 to be specific.

 

[Paleocon]

Well if we go by Europe in general and England in particular, it looks like the best way to destroy a religion is to make it the official and state-supported religion.


Erm.... not really what I wanted...

Christianity remained strong in a Europe for over a millennium. Might it not be more reasonable to say that Christianity declined, and a few legal remnants of medieval Europe remain?

 

[Paleocon]

Why does it boggle your mind that a Christian might not want the government to favor Christianity in rule and laws? There are too many Christian denominations out there that have some very crazy screwed up notions regarding religion and the last thing I would want is to give them any more control then they might already have over the government. The only way to protect everybody and to really preserve Christianity is by having the government be completely separate from it.

Do you really think it a coincidence that the decline of Christian faith occurred around the same time at secularization, while it remained strong for over a millennium before that?

 

[RogueWarrior]

State atheism is a subset of secularism, unless you're asserting that atheism is a religion.

You caught me. Three years ago I anticipated we would be having this conversation so I made all that up and posted it on the Wikipedia page.

I wasn't accusing. Just observation of the relative newness of the term. It seems to be prevalent in recent RC articles. Buzz phrase.

Unless the 1st is repealed, the US will never be a 'confessional state.' If the 1st was repealed, I would be investing in popcorn manufacturers because the rest of the world will be sitting back laughing their asses off, watching americans decide which version of christianity they would follow and what if any restrictions would be imposed on the others or the irreligious.

 

[Paleocon]

I wasn't accusing. Just observation of the relative newness of the term. It seems to be prevalent in recent RC articles. Buzz phrase.

Unless the 1st is repealed, the US will never be a 'confessional state.' If the 1st was repealed, I would be investing in popcorn manufacturers because the rest of the world will be sitting back laughing their asses off, watching americans decide which version of christianity they would follow and what if any restrictions would be imposed on the others or the irreligious.

Obviously the establishment clause would have to be repealed.

 

[Monserrat]

See the syllabus of errors, errors 55 and 77 to be specific.

There's nothing in Catholic doctrine saying that we must try to obtain a christian government. It's not in the bible either so again, what do you have against Christians who are secularists?

 

[Paleocon]

There's nothing in Catholic doctrine saying that we must try to obtain a christian government. It's not in the bible either so again, what do you have against Christians who are secularists?

The syllabus of errors (or more precisely the contradictory of the statements therein) is Catholic teaching. I don't have anything against them personally, I just find it absurd that they would hold such a position even though it is directly contrary to an orthodox understanding of Christian social teaching.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Obviously the establishment clause would have to be repealed.

Is that what you want?
Need to know so I can prepare my buy order for Orville.

 

[Paleocon]

Is that what you want?
Need to know so I can prepare my buy order for Orville.

Obviously that's what I want.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Christianity remained strong in a Europe for over a millennium. Might it not be more reasonable to say that Christianity declined, and a few legal remnants of medieval Europe remain?

So you'd be well pleased to see modern day crusades, show your own narrow version of God's love at gun point and all that?

 

[Paleocon]

So you'd be well pleased to see modern day crusades, show your own narrow version of God's love at gun point and all that?

If a country is trying to reclaim land stolen from it, that it has never surrendered the right to, then it is justified, as are any countries that wish to assist it.