China's CCP warns Elon Musk against sharing Wuhan lab leak report

[Surrealistik]

So the US defending an existing hegemony by thwarting a rival is so much better than... trying to reduce an existing hegemony? C'mon.

Yes. After all, Chinese aspirations on reducing Western hegemony means supplanting it with autocracy, censorship, genocide and systemic oppression.

As imperfect as American leadership is, the balance of evidence clearly suggests that Chinese hegemony would be far worse.

China has gradually revved up military spending... while the US shoveled immense sums at the Pentagon...

Sheer and absurd whataboutism that doesn't actually address the indisputable acceleration in Chinese militarization since the 2000s tandem with its trade wealth, and its recent propensity for aggressive muscle flexing, intimidation and saber rattling under Xi.

Oh wow, IP theft is a pretty serious thing. The US is far too upstanding and civilized to do something like that! Oh, wait, it did. It jacked tons of European industrial and manufacturing advances during its own rise...

More tiresome whataboutism. Ah yes, because IP theft of textiles technology during a segment of the 1800s and early 1900s, the value of which the article failed to quantify no less, is totally and absolutely comparable to tens of trillions of dollars of IP theft from the US alone since trade normalization, nevermind the doubtless trillions likewise stolen from the EU and other countries. In the modern era, no other country, including other developing nations, have engaged in technology and IP theft nearly as severely and prolifically as China; there is simply no defense or basis of comparison; they are truly unparalleled and in a class of their own for egregious theft of technology, research and IP.

China was far more totalitarian, and militarily aggressive, and independent of the US, in 1972...

That Xi's China is somewhat less bad on certain specific dimensions doesn't remotely obviate the indisputable fact that they are a far greater threat now than they ever were in 1972 as poor, egregiously underdeveloped and largely backwards country where the technological and military gulf between it and the States was orders of magnitude greater than it is in the present day; when it lacked any kind of capability to seriously menace our armed forces; when it scarcely had a nuclear arsenal, nevermind the ability to reliably deliver nuclear warheads to the United States compared to its modern NBC capabilities and delivery systems. Again, you are being willfully obtuse; I'm just not sure if it's simply because you're just trying to win the argument and don't wish the concede the point despite the facts clearly being against you, or you genuinely and zealously support China to the point of being disingenuous, or some combination thereof.

 

[Surrealistik]

Their international influence has grown -- but part of this is because the West has left big gaps in infrastructure aid, or was reluctant to forgive debts, or tried to bully recipients. In a few cases, China has already sprung its debt traps...

Yes, no shit China is buying influence by sloshing around the money it has accumulated from IP theft and trade with the West; effectively an admission of my point, and all the more reason to divest and cease dealing with the country in an orderly and controlled manner.

To your credit, at least you can admit that with this money China is by and large playing the old Cold War playbook with regards to overwhelmingly self-serving infrastructure investment and toxic debt trap diplomacy.

And again, you fail to recognize that China is economically dependent upon the US. Both nations would face severe economic pain if all trade stopped between them...

Clearly you have some reading comprehension issues in light of this response.

A: I have only ever advocated for the gradual and orderly disentanglement and divestment over time with China, including in a prior post where I responded to you directly; obviously going abruptly cold turkey is neither feasible nor reasonable. The US should continue its ongoing reallocation of manufacturing to friendly and increasingly cost competitive nations that don't have open designs on supplanting our hegemony, or imposing their will on the world at large.

B: They are not an existential threat to the US for the time being, which I have all but pointed out in literally the post you responded to, nor have I asserted that they presently are. Your conspicuous and deliberate minimization of the CCP's brutal treatment of their citizenry and ethnic minorities is noted moreover. Imagine reducing modern genocides and oppressive Orwellian nightmare panopticons to 'treats its citizens badly'; absolutely disgusting and contemptible; again you should be ashamed of yourself. Moreover, it is both naïve and foolhardy to dismiss the long term threat China poses to international freedom and indeed even domestic freedoms through increased leverage of diplomatic, economic and military pressures it already regularly exploits to stifle criticism and dissent if its power and influence are allowed to grow unchecked and uncontested.

 

[Metric Mouse]

Show proof that Biden increased the China tariffs.

Biden took the tarrifs that Trump tweeted and doubled down on them, staking them firmly into offical positions of the United States. He didn't increase tarrifs, which no one claimed he did... (why would he increase tarrifs on China?)

He didn't increase tarrifs on China. He just supported Trump's. Good thing trade wars are good and easy to win, and tariffs don't hurt Americans....

Oh wait?

 

[The Mark]

I studied constitutional law in college. My B.A. degree’s in government. I know what a constitutional right is, and I understand to whom it applies. But you’re missing my point.

A right is only worth your ability to exercise it. If Elon Musk or anyone living within the territorial borders of the United States is constrained in their ability to voice an opinion without incurring some sort of sanction by a foreign country or entity, that’s a state of affairs we shouldn’t tolerate without a response. More and more we’re seeing the Chinese government insert itself into the political discourse of this country, whether by intimidating or even kidnapping Chinese citizens who’ve been given refuge here or by setting up “police stations” within our borders, political lobbying, advertising, social media, or by threatening Americans who don’t toe their line with sanctions of some sort.

We need to understand that China under Chairman Xi has become increasingly totalitarian. It’s bad news, and we should move to decouple ourselves from it and stop accepting it like a “normal” country or hoping it will somehow change. It’s not, and it won’t. Time to wake up, people.

Consequences of Musk's actions are what China said, and any response will be the consequences of theirs (China).

Our system allows outside influence, so if we don't want it that system has to change.

 

[SMTA]

Meh. I hated the tarrifs until Biden doubled down on them. Since Biden increased them, they must have been good

Biden took the tarrifs that Trump tweeted and doubled down on them, staking them firmly into offical positions of the United States. He didn't increase tarrifs, which no one claimed he did... (why would he increase tarrifs on China?)

He didn't increase tarrifs on China. He just supported Trump's. Good thing trade wars are good and easy to win, and tariffs don't hurt Americans....

Oh wait?

Busted.
You lied, in writing, twice, and got caught.
Again.
You seem very discombobulated.
Again.
And you still don’t understand how tariffs work and who actually pays for them.

 

[PoS]

What a dumbass statement.

What a dumbass appeal to the stone fallacy lol

I know which one you have.

View attachment 67439182

So you love Trump and Putin, we get it already.

 

[Rexedgar]

No. Elon Musk doesn’t live in China. He lives in Texas—the land of Angus cattle, West Texas Intermediate Crude, and big opinions on everything under a Midland summer sun. But going forward he’ll need to shut up on topics depicting China in a negative light if he wants to continue doing business there unfettered. While it’s not an official surrender of his right of free speech, it might as well be.

When in Rome………..

 

[snakestretcher]

Who was refraining from criticism of the West? Also, if we're talking about the cumulative sins of America versus China specifically as we were, yes, I would assert that America deserves less criticism and has moral superiority because China's sins under the CCP alone have been collectively far worse; again, the depravity of Mao's reign by itself outstrips all the worst parts of American history combined in terms of sheer horror, moral and ethical lapse, and present day China's offenses remain more egregious than those of than present day America.

Further, Visbek literally came out of nowhere with abrupt and baseless accusations of xenophobia, in addition to whataboutism and deflection featuring a bunch of ridiculous false equivalencies for reasons that mystify me. Obviously America has done terrible shit, but that doesn't make Ahlevah's assertions incorrect, nor does it merit going on such a ridiculous and bogus tangent of American policy missteps and apologism where China is going to come off looking far worse anyways if we conduct a point by point accounting and inventory of all the horrible things that it has done.

In short, try to actually address the actual point at hand rather than making this a tangential contest of whataboutism and moral superiority that China under the CCP is going to lose badly regardless.

It's a matter of balance; America good, China bad is simplistic in the extreme.

 

[snakestretcher]

It does under certain circumstances: 1) when the criticism is used solely as a means to deflect and not address the actual argument; 2) when the alleged sins are not comparable.

The first is beyond dispute: your sole motivation is as a means to distract from or justify Chinese behavior. And your second is a layup or a gimme to refute. Let me explain.

Earlier, you tried to compare U.S. involvement in various wars in the decades since WWII to the Chinese communist extermination of tens of millions of its own citizens. The first example was the Korean War, in which you tried to lay the deaths of millions of Koreans at America’s doorstep. Let me point out a few facts.

When the communists invaded South Korea in June, 1950, the South faced an actual, imminent existential threat. The first order of business in that circumstance was not to lose, because it was literally a matter of their lives versus those of their enemy. When your enemy is sending hundreds of thousands of soldiers through its cities on a cramped peninsula even as it doesn’t distinguish between combatants and civilians but considers every comrade a soldier for the cause, you don’t have the time or pleasure to discriminate. A U.S. military doctrine that includes civilian populations as potential strategic targets, where justified, existed then and it exists today, as we see in the United States’ nuclear deterrent policy of Mutual Assured Destruction (M.A.D.). Sorry, but if it’s a case of us or them, then guess what? It’s them.

And what was the result of that war? It had its growing pains, but what ultimately emerged was a democratic, prosperous, and free South Korea. Meanwhile, how are things with China’s communist pal in the north, which not only enslaves its own populace but continues to be a regional and growing strategic threat to international stability and the rules-based international order?

Sorry, but no. Your tally of communist-inspired deaths is coming up millions of civilians short. The 3 or 4 million dead Koreans you want to ascribe to America really should be added to China’s 50 million starved and executed Chinese.

I don't believe I mentioned Korea. Oh, and the two Koreas are still technically at war, despite appearances to the contrary. I get that as an American you want to defend your country, but decades of honouring distant nations which never even threatened the US with your freedom bombs leaves those nations hostile to the US despite the passing years. If we take Iran, 1953, as an example both British and US meddling back then, culminating in the CIA overthrowing a legitimate democracy and installing a vicious dictator in its stead, has resulted in the Iran we have today and all the accompanying issues. We, the West, created that monster. I won't detail the numerous war crimes committed by the US in pursuit of the democracy certain nations never 'enjoyed', nor wanted. Iraq is a prime example; a maelstrom of tribal in-fighting, ethnic conflict and corruption within a tottering pastiche of democracy foisted on the country by NATO at America's behest. Success? Victory?
Yes Saddam was a monster, but he was Iraq's monster. Where was the West during the African genocides in Darfur and the Congo, for example? Nothing material or political to be gained for us there, so we allowed those monsters to continue the slaughter, unchallenged.

 

[snakestretcher]

No. Elon Musk doesn’t live in China. He lives in Texas—the land of Angus cattle, West Texas Intermediate Crude, and big opinions on everything under a Midland summer sun. But going forward he’ll need to shut up on topics depicting China in a negative light if he wants to continue doing business there unfettered. While it’s not an official surrender of his right of free speech, it might as well be.

Ahem; the 'land of Angus cattle' is Scotland. The breed is called Aberdeen Angus for a reason; the breed originated in the region around Kincardine and Angus.

 

[ralfy]

For example, from 2014:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[ClaraD]

Oops they already banned it.

No, they didn't. I still have tik tok on my phone and can still watch it and/or upload videos to it.

 

[snakestretcher]

No, they didn't. I still have tik tok on my phone and can still watch it and/or upload videos to it.

I believe it is government/federal employees for whom the ban applies.

Why TikTok is being banned on gov’t phones in US and beyond

The United States is ratcheting up national security concerns about TikTok, mandating that all federal employees delete the Chinese-owned social media app from government-issued mobile phones.

apnews.com

 

[ClaraD]

No foreign government has a constitutional right to access the private data of Americans by using a proxy. TikTok is a security threat. It shouldn’t be permitted to operate in this country under current conditions.

You can try to block them from accessing it, but you cannot block Americans from downloading the app itself...that is called CHOICE my friend...and our right to exercise our free speech, whenever and however we want.

 

[ClaraD]

I believe it is government/federal employees for whom the ban applies.

Why TikTok is being banned on gov’t phones in US and beyond

The United States is ratcheting up national security concerns about TikTok, mandating that all federal employees delete the Chinese-owned social media app from government-issued mobile phones.

apnews.com

I don't think government employees should have any non-pertinent apps on their government-issued phones. Mouse knows damn well I am referring to their intentions to ban it for all Americans.

 

[snakestretcher]

You can try to block them from accessing it, but you cannot block Americans from downloading the app itself...that is called CHOICE my friend...and our right to exercise our free speech, whenever and however we want.

duplicate

 

[Grand Mal]

Ahem; the 'land of Angus cattle' is Scotland. The breed is called Aberdeen Angus for a reason; the breed originated in the region around Kincardine and Angus.

Herefords then. The land of Hereford cattle.

 

[Ahlevah]

Consequences of Musk's actions are what China said, and any response will be the consequences of theirs (China).

Our system allows outside influence, so if we don't want it that system has to change.

I’m not advocating that we change our system. I like our system just fine. We could effectively deal with national security threats like TikTok, assuming our legislators haven’t yet sold their souls to Beijing.

What I want us to do is approach China not as a friendly political and business rival and trading partner, but as a potential adversary in the same way they approach us. I mean, their actions belie the fluffy words of peace and harmony we’ve seen emanating in recent months from the lips of their official spokespeople at their foreign ministry, perhaps because they sense they’re starting to piss off their largest direct investor and purchaser of their crap. As hedge fund manager Kyle Bass, who advocates a complete decoupling from China, said moments ago on CNBC, “Their partnership with Russia should tell you all you need to know.”

 

[Ahlevah]

When in Rome………..

That’s the point: time to leave Rome—then prepare to burn it to the ground if necessary.

 

[Ahlevah]

I don't believe I mentioned Korea.

Don’t you read your own articles? It was mentioned in the article you linked in Post #97 concerning “America’s wars,” where you asked me if I “really wanted to play this game” (of comparing Mao’s atrocities to America’s presumed atrocities, which were chalked up at something like 12 million people). Anyway, yeah, I do.

 

[Ahlevah]

Ahem; the 'land of Angus cattle' is Scotland. The breed is called Aberdeen Angus for a reason; the breed originated in the region around Kincardine and Angus.

Maybe I should have been less specific and just said “land of lots of big cows,” like Texas Longhorns. Do they have those in Scotland? How about a Gigafactory? Space City?

 

[Ahlevah]

You can try to block them from accessing it, but you cannot block Americans from downloading the app itself...that is called CHOICE my friend...and our right to exercise our free speech, whenever and however we want.

We can set the terms under which social media companies operate in this country, just as other democracies like India and the E.U. have done. China’s banned our social media. We should do likewise, unless we want 100 million-plus miniature Chinese spy bots gathering data and using algorithms to influence our populace, especially impressionable young people who are the overwhelming users of TikTok.

 

[ClaraD]

We can set the terms under which social media companies operate in this country, just as other democracies like India and the E.U. have done. China’s banned our social media. We should do likewise, unless we want 100 million-plus miniature Chinese spy bots gathering data and using algorithms to influence our populace, especially impressionable young people who are the overwhelming users of TikTok.

nope, you really cannot. You cannot across the board ban a media company, because you don't like the country they are based in. Question...have you sent your phone back to China? your computer? You better get marching on doing that, because my bets are both have been made in China.

 

[snakestretcher]

Herefords then. The land of Hereford cattle.

No, that's Herefordshire, way down south in the West Midlands

Hereford cattle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[snakestretcher]

nope, you really cannot. You cannot across the board ban a media company, because you don't like the country they are based in. Question...have you sent your phone back to China? your computer? You better get marching on doing that, because my bets are both have been made in China.

...as well as just about every other electronic appliance in the home. Buy American? Sure, if you can both afford it-and find it!