China signals opening for trade talks with US

[RetiredAtLast]

You can't reverse economic and manufacturing progress anymore than you can hold back waves with your hand. As an economy ages, it either progresses or stagnates, we chose to not have kids working in factories, we chose to have nurses rather to keep digging coal. This country is a service based economy, you are not going to have factories suddenly pop-up and fill them with fired DC planners screwing i-phones together. Its absurd, you know it is.

What I know to be absurd is that kind of simplistic and, frankly, politics-driven, thinking. It's true that we have a largely service-based economy, and we used that rationale to allow our manufacturing base to fade. But it's not necessary that it be one or the other. For example, nothing keeps us from smelting steel or aluminum except lower prices from other countries, And why are their prices lower? Because of lower wages and our companies being blocked out of their markets by tariffs. If we raised tariffs to match theirs, or they lowered theirs, steel and aluminum smelted here would come very close to the prices charged here by foreign smelters; at least close enough that dishwasher manufacturers could afford to use American steel.

As it happens, a South Korean company is spending $7 billion to build a steel smelting plant right here in the USA. in Louisiana. (Maybe they'll need some "fired D.C. planners" to learn to administer a steel-making business.)

 

[L88]

China’s military launches live-fire exercise in escalation of blockade drills near Taiwan | CNN

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[RetiredAtLast]

Have you any specific examples of that happening?

Sure. China charges a 125% tariff on many U.S. products in China. That's why Trump imposed a 125% tariff on some Chinese products.

 

[Callen]

What I know to be absurd is that kind of simplistic and, frankly, politics-driven, thinking. It's true that we have a largely service-based economy, and we used that rationale to allow our manufacturing base to fade. But it's not necessary that it be one or the other. For example, nothing keeps us from smelting steel or aluminum except lower prices from other countries, And why are their prices lower? Because of lower wages and our companies being blocked out of their markets by tariffs. If we raised tariffs to match theirs, or they lowered theirs, steel and aluminum smelted here would come very close to the prices charged here by foreign smelters; at least close enough that dishwasher manufacturers could afford to use American steel.

I can't speak to steel but smelting aluminum in the States is cost prohibitive given your domestic supply of both bauxite and electricity. The CEO of Alcoa .

"Alcoa's CEO, Bill Oplinger, has stated that the company is facing significant challenges in restarting or expanding its U.S. aluminum production due to high electricity costs, even with proposed tariffs. While Alcoa produces aluminum in Canada, Iceland, and Australia, their U.S. plants have struggled with competitiveness due to energy costs. Oplinger has also mentioned the potential for job losses in the U.S. aluminum industry due to tariffs, and that Alcoa is seeking exemptions on Canadian imports. "

What's interesting to me, and underscores the importance of our trade relations, is that we send you aluminum which we can make cheaply given our access to bauxite and electricity and in return we import all our aluminum based finished products from the States. All our finished aluminum products from beer cans to aluminum foil to car parts come from the States. In my view screwing up that arrangement is just plain stupid.

 

[Callen]

Sure. China charges a 125% tariff on many U.S. products in China. That's why Trump imposed a 125% tariff on some Chinese products.

OK......China maybe although you provide no specifics.......now let's talk about the rest of the world

 

[Gimmesometruth]

What I know to be absurd is that kind of simplistic and, frankly, politics-driven, thinking. It's true that we have a largely service-based economy, and we used that rationale to allow our manufacturing base to fade.

No, "we" didn't "allow" anything. This mealy-mouthed trope is so absurd. You can't compete on wages with poorer nations, it is impossible, you compete by making higher level products, higher value products. Its why you take the kid out of the coal mine and turn him into a coder.

But it's not necessary that it be one or the other. For example, nothing keeps us from smelting steel or aluminum except lower prices from other countries,

Well....um......THATS THE FRIGGING POINT....

And why are their prices lower? Because of lower wages and our companies being blocked out of their markets by tariffs.

Their tariffs on our products does not cause their lower labor costs, thats all wrong. Rethink that.

If we raised tariffs to match theirs, or they lowered theirs, steel and aluminum smelted here would come very close to the prices charged here by foreign smelters; at least close enough that dishwasher manufacturers could afford to use American steel.

FALSE FALSE FALSE, again, we cannot match their labor costs, we have a higher living standard, it costs more to live here, you cannot change that with tariffs, it does not work like that.

As it happens, a South Korean company is spending $7 billion to build a steel smelting plant right here in the USA. in Louisiana. (Maybe they'll need some "fired D.C. planners" to learn to administer a steel-making business.)

It is going to be heavily subsidized, it funnels profits to SK, it will not produce steel competitive for export. All deals like this are done to avoid US import tariffs for US domestic consumption.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

That is not an argument of their correlation.

Of course it is. Not an arithmetic correlation, but a financial one.

Which has nothing to do with trade or debt directly, AND YOU HAVE REJECTED INCREASING INCOME REVENUE AS A MEANS TO COUNTER DEBT IN PREVIOUS DEBATES.

It doesn't have to be "direct." Your local car dealer might sell more cars if someone opened a new business employing people. There's no "direct" connection, but the two conditions affect each other. As for increasing income revenue, do you favor raising taxes on existing workers, or adding workers paying the same rates as existing workers? (NOTE: 500,000 people joined the work force last month, and 177,000 people got new jobs.)

Export demand? DUDE....we are engaging in a trade war, we are taking ourselves out of exporting, we are going to try to increase our domestic manufacturing for domestic consumption with tariffs, without subsidization, which makes our products completely uncompetitive for export in the first place. Further, other nations are going to block are exports with their tariffs on our uncompetative exports.

First, I am not a "dude." Second, you clearly have no idea whats going on. You see increased tariffs and seem to think that's the object of the activity. Try considering the wider field of international trade, balances, our debt, the national economy, the government benefits you're used to. It's your style of tiny thinking that's put us at such a precarious position.

What in the **** are you talking about?

You don't know, do you?

You just refuse to understand how insane this MAGA crap is.

Sadly, you think of it in those terms.
A few weeks ago, you guys were all predicting doom and horrible gloom because the stock market took a crap. Today the Dow is just 2% lower than a month ago, 5,000 points higher than early April. Maybe something is going right in spite of you,

 

[RetiredAtLast]

OK......China maybe although you provide no specifics.......now let's talk about the rest of the world

Do you expect me to give you a run-down on the tariffs imposed by almost 200 countries? Look it up.

 

[Callen]

Do you expect me to give you a run-down on the tariffs imposed by almost 200 countries? Look it up.

There aren't even 200 countries...look it up. Most countries have low or no tariffs on US imports. There are always very specific sectors which have higher tariffs...just like the States does.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

No, "we" didn't "allow" anything.

Of course we did. We accepted what we thought was a prestigious position of providing services instead of "mere hardware."

You can't compete on wages with poorer nations, it is impossible

Wait for it! You could be right! But only if you're talking about making the same products and only if tariffs are taken out of the pricing.

Well....um......THATS THE FRIGGING POINT....

I'm sorry. You're so tied up in partisan crap that you can't possibly grasp what most people think of as the bigger picture. For example, let's consider the next exchange in this thread. I said, "And why are their prices lower? Because of lower wages and our companies being blocked out of their markets by tariffs." Your response was, "Their tariffs on our products does not cause their lower labor costs, thats all wrong."

I referred to two factors: wages and tariffs. You thought I was saying that tariffs somehow cause low wages. Your reaction makes no sense. I don't know how to carry on a conversation with someone who does that.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

There aren't even 200 countries

There are 195., That's why I said, "almost 200."

Moat countries have low or no tariffs on US imports. There are always very specific sectors which have higher tariffs...just like the States does.

If you know all that then you don't need an answer from me.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Of course it is. Not an arithmetic correlation, but a financial one.

It doesn't have to be "direct." Your local car dealer might sell more cars if someone opened a new business employing people. There's no "direct" connection, but the two conditions affect each other. As for increasing income revenue, do you favor raising taxes on existing workers, or adding workers paying the same rates as existing workers? (NOTE: 500,000 people joined the work force last month, and 177,000 people got new jobs.)

This is so stupidly tiresome, our participation rate is not going to change because foxcon opens an i-phone factory. The admin is arguing that degreed civil servants they fire are going to work at factories that do not exist. This entire argument is a pipe dream, it is Flavor-aide chugging, it has no basis in reality.

First, I am not a "dude."

Coulda sworn you were male, my bad.

Second, you clearly have no idea whats going on. You see increased tariffs and seem to think that's the object of the activity. Try considering the wider field of international trade, balances, our debt, the national economy, the government benefits you're used to. It's your style of tiny thinking that's put us at such a precarious position.

You completely side-stepped away from the concept that other nations will apply tariffs in a trade war.....while telling me I need to understand international trade.

Well done.

You don't know, do you?

Sadly, you think of it in those terms.
A few weeks ago, you guys were all predicting doom and horrible gloom because the stock market took a crap. Today the Dow is just 2% lower than a month ago, 5,000 points higher than early April. Maybe something is going right in spite of you,

I was pointing out how the international markets are reacting to this insane brainless trade war. I'm not strictly relying upon it as an indicator of bad times ahead. But I get it, you are going to move the goalpost once again as you always do.

Let me know when you are able to recognize that the advanced US economy cannot compete on a wage basis with poorer nations on like products. Let me know when that sinks in

 

[Callen]

There are 195., That's why I said, "almost 200."

And how many of those have tariffs on American imports much less high ones? Do some homework before embarrassing yourself with Trump speak.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Of course we did. We accepted what we thought was a prestigious position of providing services instead of "mere hardware."

You have created some fictional "we". Private corporation looked for cheaper labor, other nations with cheaper labor and subsidized production started exporting. Thats how the world turns, you can't reverse it.

Wait for it! You could be right! But only if you're talking about making the same products and only if tariffs are taken out of the pricing.

The conversation, your items..... were metals

I'm sorry. You're so tied up in partisan crap that you can't possibly grasp what most people think of as the bigger picture. For example, let's consider the next exchange in this thread. I said, "And why are their prices lower? Because of lower wages and our companies being blocked out of their markets by tariffs." Your response was, "Their tariffs on our products does not cause their lower labor costs, thats all wrong."

I referred to two factors: wages and tariffs. You thought I was saying that tariffs somehow cause low wages. Your reaction makes no sense. I don't know how to carry on a conversation with someone who does that.

Tariffs on our products.....does not cause.....their lower production costs, their "price" to be low. Thier lower cost of living causes the price of their product to be low. YOU are talking about the relative costs AFTER a tariff is applied, but their nominal price level is due to their lower cost of production. The price was lower before any tariff is applied. We cannot compete with poorer nations on a wages.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

This is so stupidly tiresome, our participation rate is not going to change because foxcon opens an i-phone factory.

No, but half a million people joined the labor force last month. IF that's part of a trend, it'll be substantially more than an iphone factory.

The admin is arguing that degreed civil servants they fire

What makes you think that all of the people fired from government have degrees?

Coulda sworn you were male, my bad.

I am male, but I am not a "dude."

You completely side-stepped away from the concept that other nations will apply tariffs in a trade war.....while telling me I need to understand international trade.

I "side-stepped" away from the obvious. And you need to understand trade and it's impact on domestic finances.

I was pointing out how the international markets are reacting to this insane brainless trade war.

And I'm trying to help you understand that what's going on is not simply a trade war. You're having too much difficulty with that concept.

Let me know when you are able to recognize that the advanced US economy cannot compete on a wage basis with poorer nations on like products. Let me know when that sinks in

I KNOW THAT. And I haven't said that we should even try to. Let me know when something larger than that gets through to you.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Not an arithmetic correlation, but a financial one.

wow, I skipped over that gem, thats absurdly stupid.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

wow, I skipped over that gem, thats absurdly stupid.

You know some stuff, I'm sure. This just isn't it.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

No, but half a million people joined the labor force last month. IF that's part of a trend, it'll be substantially more than an iphone factory.

I have no idea what you are refencing, job growth came in at under 200K, and we are removing workers at an increasing rate.

What makes you think that all of the people fired from government have degrees?

Ah, ye olde absolutism and strawman....we've come to this.

I am male, but I am not a "dude."

what the **** ever

I "side-stepped" away from the obvious. And you need to understand trade and it's impact on domestic finances.

I understand that this admin is not going to eliminate FIT with tariffs, or any other flavor-aide chugging insanity your lot repeats here.

And I'm trying to help you understand that what's going on is not simply a trade war. You're having too much difficulty with that concept.

LOL...applying tariffs to end cheap imports...is not.....a trade war....chug chug.

I KNOW THAT. And I haven't said that we should even try to. Let me know when something larger than that gets through to you.

This entire exercise is a matter of stopping cheap imports...by....attempting to make their price rise above....domestic costs. It doesn't work, it is a pipe dream, it is flavor-aide chugging.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You know some stuff, I'm sure. This just isn't it.

I would never say something stupid like "financial correlations are not arithmetic correlations ".

That is a REALLY DUMB THING to say.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

I would never say something stupid like "financial correlations are not arithmetic correlations ".

That is a REALLY DUMB THING to say.

See? That's the trouble with this discussion., I didn't say that. You either think I did or just want to say that I did.

 

[noonereal]

We've lived on the national credit card, and now it's time to pay the Piper.

All countries do. You don't even know this do you.

No one has "declared war." If something has been "declared," it's that the field has to be leveled so that our products aren't kept from competing in other countries because of high tariffs.

Yes, ass hole has intensified an already existent war between the free world
Which we had been the leader of and the communist countries.

We could have had a plan. We could have been reasoned. We just ****ed up and there will be no fixing it.

 

[noonereal]

No. They sensibly took advantage of their much lower labor costs to make a wide variety of cheap products that we eagerly bought. They were so cheap that we stopped manufacturing those products and, eventually, lost our ability to make them. Now we don't even try to make them. American-designed products are shipped to Asia to be made, and the IP that goes with them is stolen.

Clue, this is a good thing.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

All countries do. You don't even know this do you.

So do a lot of people. And this country, like some people, has very nearly reached the point at which were going to have to stop doing things we want to because we have to pay the interest on our debt.

We could have had a plan. We could have been reasoned.

We could have, but the Biden administration (whoever they were) ignored it. They preferred to spend their time moving our government to the left. Trump knows that he only has two years that he can be sure of to try to get this effort done, so some of the niceties have to be short-circuited.

 

[RetiredAtLast]

Clue, this is a good thing.

Well, that certainly explains your pro-CCC position.

 

[noonereal]

So do a lot of people. And this country, like some people, has very nearly reached the point at which were going to have to stop doing things we want to because we have to pay the interest on our debt.

Where did you get your degree in economics? Trump U?

e could have, but the Biden administration (whoever they were) ignored it. They preferred to spend their time moving our government to the left. Trump knows that he only has two years that he can be sure of to try to get this effort done, so some of the niceties have to be short-circuited.

Biden gave us the greatest economy the world has ever know. But they don't teach this at Trump U do they?