Changing Roles

[Bodi]

Sure it does, if you believe in it hard enough, all yer dreams will come true.

That doesn't even make sense...

 

[Gimmesometruth]

That doesn't even make sense...

You reference yet ANOTHER one of your losing arguments.

The neverending story...

 

[Bodi]

You reference yet ANOTHER one of your losing arguments.

The neverending story...

Where are you taking Mexican Jesus?

 

[The Mark]

In another thread we have been talking about male and female roles in society and how that affects pay.

I have often thought about movie roles and how minorities complain, and often rightly so, that their roles are not properly portrayed by authentic cultures, etc. The obvious is when white actors back in the day did Black Face, or in that Roman Holiday movie the white guy played the angry Chinese neighbor. There are a ton... Alec Guiness played an Arab Sheik in Lawrence of Arabia and all the white guys that played Native Americans in all those Westerns.

Talk of stealing black roles is huge. Denzel has screamed racism for decades.

That was back in a more racist white driven world to be sure and has been mostly stamped out due to social pressure and that is fine.

What I am seeing is that it seems to be OK to do what is wrong to minorities to white people though... Talk of the new James Bond is the black English guy, Idris?, who just played in the Star Trek movie. Denzel and Will Smith have played white characters. Idris also played the Norse God in Thor. Sam Jackson is Nick Fury in the Avengers.

We even have white non-Americans playing Americans. A western a few years ago included Englishman Christian Bale and Australian Russel Crow as American cowboys.

I am certainly not sayin' that the white American male actor is oppressed... but isn't it a double standard?

This thread is not a racism or whatever thread... just an opportunity to discuss it thread.

IS there a double standard?

Many of the roles I've heard there are complaints about were never "white" roles to begin with, IMO.

Speaking specifically to these examples:

I fail to see how James Bond being played by a black person is changing anything about the character - I never considered Bond to be one person in the first place - rather, it's a fictional job title/position - "James Bond, 007", rather than an individual actually named James Bond. Certainly by now it's clear that no one person is James Bond.

That said, I'm by no means an expert on the Bond story and history, so perhaps he's supposed to be a white male for some reason I am unaware of.

I have a little more sympathy for the problems some had with the casting of a black person as Heimdall - there are certain religious aspects to that, and there may be an argument for Heimdall being white in Norse mythology (although I am by no means an expert on that either).

Frankly, regarding Nick Fury, I've never seen him as anything other than Sam Jackson - I never read that many comics as a child, so really my first introduction to the character was as it is portrayed by Sam Jackson.
In short, to me, a Nick Fury who isn't black is weird.


I have to wonder how much of the possible double standard you are seeing is based on past versions of a character skewing your concept of what that fictional character should be.

 

[DiAnna]

Hmm, it looks like some guys are still pissed off because last year's Star Wars blockbuster was led by a jedi hero who was female. :lol:

 

[Henrin]

Hmm, it looks like some guys are still pissed off because last year's Star Wars blockbuster was led by a jedi hero who was female. :lol:

That's pretty much becoming the norm, so...

Btw, why do women want to be masculine? Is there a reason for that?

 

[The Mark]

That's pretty much becoming the norm, so...

Btw, why do women want to be masculine? Is there a reason for that?

Is it impossible to be both strong and feminine?

 

[Henrin]

Is it impossible to be both strong and feminine?

The role is a masculine role. Do you think being a warrior and feminine behavior go together for some reason?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Many of the roles I've heard there are complaints about were never "white" roles to begin with, IMO.

Speaking specifically to these examples:

I fail to see how James Bond being played by a black person is changing anything about the character - I never considered Bond to be one person in the first place - rather, it's a fictional job title/position - "James Bond, 007", rather than an individual actually named James Bond. Certainly by now it's clear that no one person is James Bond.

That said, I'm by no means an expert on the Bond story and history, so perhaps he's supposed to be a white male for some reason I am unaware of.

I have a little more sympathy for the problems some had with the casting of a black person as Heimdall - there are certain religious aspects to that, and there may be an argument for Heimdall being white in Norse mythology (although I am by no means an expert on that either).

Frankly, regarding Nick Fury, I've never seen him as anything other than Sam Jackson - I never read that many comics as a child, so really my first introduction to the character was as it is portrayed by Sam Jackson.
In short, to me, a Nick Fury who isn't black is weird.


I have to wonder how much of the possible double standard you are seeing is based on past versions of a character skewing your concept of what that fictional character should be.

Re James Bond
I learned this last year. His back story in the books are that he is of Scottish French ethnically.

Of course for the movies it has no effect and Idris would do well in the role

 

[The Mark]

Re James Bond
I learned this last year. His back story in the books are that he is of Scottish French ethnically.

Of course for the movies it has no effect and Idris would do well in the role

While less likely, it is possible that he could be ethnically Scottish and French, while also being black-skinned.

 

[The Mark]

The role is a masculine role. Do you think being a warrior and feminine behavior go together for some reason?

I'm not sure I follow.

It seems entirely possible for a woman to be both a warrior and feminine, assuming the definitions of both are not too narrow.


Possibly I am using broader definitions.

 

[Henrin]

I'm not sure I follow.

It seems entirely possible for a woman to be both a warrior and feminine, assuming the definitions of both are not too narrow.


Possibly I am using broader definitions.

Of course it is not possible for her to be both. Being a warrior is masculine behavior, so by becoming a warrior she is acting like a man. She might be feminine in appearance, but that doesn't make her not manly in behavior. Of course, some of these women in real life aren't really feminine in appearance either.

 

[The Mark]

Of course it is not possible for her to be both. Being a warrior is masculine behavior, so by becoming a warrior she is acting like a man. She might be feminine in appearance, but that doesn't make her not manly in behavior. Of course, some of these women in real life aren't really feminine in appearance either.

Perhaps I have a different understanding of Warrior, I hadn't realized it was specifically masculine behavior.

 

[Henrin]

Perhaps I have a different understanding of Warrior, I hadn't realized it was specifically masculine behavior.

How was that unknown to you? Why would you think that it was feminine behavior for women to act tough and fight? It has no relation to their natural tendencies or their natural strengths, so it obviously can't fit.

 

[The Mark]

How was that unknown to you? Why would you think that it was feminine behavior for women to act tough and fight? It has no relation to their natural tendencies or their natural strengths, so it obviously can't fit.

I'm unsure how many of those tendencies are cultural and how many are genetic.

 

[Henrin]

I'm unsure how many of those tendencies are cultural and how many are genetic.

You think it's cultural for women to not be warriors or have a strong tendency to fight in the first place? Clearly they're less aggressive of the two sexes and they have never really shown a great tendency towards the behavior.

 

[Goshin]

In another thread we have been talking about male and female roles in society and how that affects pay.

I have often thought about movie roles and how minorities complain, and often rightly so, that their roles are not properly portrayed by authentic cultures, etc. The obvious is when white actors back in the day did Black Face, or in that Roman Holiday movie the white guy played the angry Chinese neighbor. There are a ton... Alec Guiness played an Arab Sheik in Lawrence of Arabia and all the white guys that played Native Americans in all those Westerns.

Talk of stealing black roles is huge. Denzel has screamed racism for decades.

That was back in a more racist white driven world to be sure and has been mostly stamped out due to social pressure and that is fine.

What I am seeing is that it seems to be OK to do what is wrong to minorities to white people though... Talk of the new James Bond is the black English guy, Idris?, who just played in the Star Trek movie. Denzel and Will Smith have played white characters. Idris also played the Norse God in Thor. Sam Jackson is Nick Fury in the Avengers.

We even have white non-Americans playing Americans. A western a few years ago included Englishman Christian Bale and Australian Russel Crow as American cowboys.

I am certainly not sayin' that the white American male actor is oppressed... but isn't it a double standard?

This thread is not a racism or whatever thread... just an opportunity to discuss it thread.

IS there a double standard?

Of course there is a double standard. This is the era of **** all white people in general and **** all men in general, and most especially **** all white men as doubly damned, and most especially in the various media.

 

[Henrin]

Of course there is a double standard. This is the era of **** all white people in general and **** all men in general, and most especially **** all white men as doubly damned, and most especially in the various media.

No Goshin, it's **** all straight cisgender white males. I perdict there will be more in the future, but hey, for now we're both only the worst thing on the planet four times over.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Of course there is a double standard. This is the era of **** all white people in general and **** all men in general, and most especially **** all white men as doubly damned, and most especially in the various media.

I feel so oppressed I need a safe space

 

[Goshin]

I feel so oppressed I need a safe space

I already got one of those. 13 acres of woodlands around my house.


Does wonders for the ol' nerves.

 

[The Mark]

You think it's cultural for women to not be warriors or have a strong tendency to fight in the first place? Clearly they're less aggressive of the two sexes and they have never really shown a great tendency towards the behavior.

I said I'm unsure.

I know that there must be outlying situations, at least, wherein women have become experienced combatants - warriors.
I also know that among those outliers, there must also have been some women who managed to maintain "feminine" behavior (although I'm not entirely clear how that word is defined, come to think of it).

I don't have all the information, so I don't know how much of an outlier such a thing might be.


I will grant that most cultures around the world emphasis males as combatants, but my point is that it may be just that, cultural.

 

[Henrin]

I said I'm unsure.

I know that there must be outlying situations, at least, wherein women have become experienced combatants - warriors.
I also know that among those outliers, there must also have been some women who managed to maintain "feminine" behavior (although I'm not entirely clear how that word is defined, come to think of it).

I don't have all the information, so I don't know how much of an outlier such a thing might be.


I will grant that most cultures around the world emphasis males as combatants, but my point is that it may be just that, cultural.

So what, she is feminine in all things outside of her training to be a warrior, her fighting as a warrior, and all the other stuff that goes into being say a Marine like lifting weights to pick up a bunch of muscle? I'm sorry, but I don't even think you know what feminine is or your definition is damn near useless.

 

[Fiddytree]

Superheroes have been over-exposed over the last several years, so my care-o-meter is on empty. Now, the shameless double pandering we're getting with the Ghostbusters Universe (first the bad all-chick film, then the obviously man-baby assuaging 2nd film that's coming), that's been irking me.

 

[Henrin]

Superheroes have been over-exposed over the last several years, so my care-o-meter is on empty. Now, the shameless double pandering we're getting with the Ghostbusters Universe (first the bad all-chick film, then the obviously man-baby assuaging 2nd film that's coming), that's been irking me.

Lol. They already ****ed themselves with the first movie.

 

[The Mark]

Superheroes have been over-exposed over the last several years, so my care-o-meter is on empty. Now, the shameless double pandering we're getting with the Ghostbusters Universe (first the bad all-chick film, then the obviously man-baby assuaging 2nd film that's coming), that's been irking me.

I haven't seen the new ghostbusters, but I wouldn't really consider that a Superhero movie.