Challenge for liberals/progressives

Fishking said:

Yes...because my intent is clear, but people were trying to weasel out of it. I'm like a genuine positive comments about the U.S. that doesn't have negatives attached to it. And this doesn't mean that there aren't problems, there is no place that has no problems. That doesn't mean one can't be proud or positive about some aspects or accomplishments of their country.

All I see from liberals and progressives, day in and day out, is extreme criticism. Nothing positive, ever. It's gotten to the point where there is even a NYT article saying that the American flag is divisive now. There has to be something to unite over.

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It seems that what you were looking for is "We have lovely national forests and our apple pie is to die for."

The problem with your request is that, "lovely national forests" aside, we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment. The journey of improvement is marked by the negative reality we climbed out of. We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy (a monarchist would be offended by this). Slaves were freed (a southern confederate would be offended by this). Women gained the right to vote (a misogynist would be offended by this). African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties (a racist would be offended by this). And we saved ourselves from fascism using democratic institutions (you are offended by me saying this).

You're annoyed because mentioning the negative thing we overcame offends you. And that's not my problem; that's yours.

Fishking said:

Yes...because my intent is clear, but people were trying to weasel out of it. I'm like a genuine positive comments about the U.S. that doesn't have negatives attached to it. And this doesn't mean that there aren't problems, there is no place that has no problems. That doesn't mean one can't be proud or positive about some aspects or accomplishments of their country.

All I see from liberals and progressives, day in and day out, is extreme criticism. Nothing positive, ever. It's gotten to the point where there is even a NYT article saying that the American flag is divisive now. There has to be something to unite over.

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Right, we should unite behind this?

Cardinal said:

A nation's democratic institutions saved itself from fascism. Sorry that you think so low of the U.S. that you don't see this as an amazing thing. Name me for one other country that managed to use democratic institutions to stop its descent into fascism. And while I'm not a historian, I'm not sure there is one.

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Again, just the same coded insult based in partisanship rehashed from your previous comment.

Cardinal said:

It seems that what you were looking for is "We have lovely national forests and our apple pie is to die for."

The problem with your request is that, "lovely national forests" aside, we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment. The journey of improvement is marked by the negative reality we climbed out of. We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy (a monarchist would be offended by this). Slaves were freed (a southern confederate would be offended by this). Women gained the right to vote (a misogynist would be offended by this). African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties (a racist would be offended by this). And we saved ourselves from fascism using democratic institutions (you are offended by me saying this).

You're annoyed because mentioning the negative thing we overcame offends you. And that's not my problem; that's yours.

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All of those things you wrote, without adding "so and so terrible people would be offended by this" stand on their own. Thanks for you contributions.

mrjurrs said:

Right, we should unite behind this?
View attachment 67341409

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Where the **** did I say that?

Fishking said:

All of those things you wrote, without adding "so and so terrible people would be offended by this" stand on their own. Thanks for you contributions.

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To a person against women's right to vote, praising women's suffrage is a "coded insult." If I want to praise women's suffrage, I have no obligations to avoid making that praise in order to consider the feelings of that person. You're just on the wrong side of an important issue, and that's your problem; not mine.

To somebody on the right side of an issue, praising our democratic institutions for saving us from fascism isn't a coded insult but, as you put it, a thing that stands on its own.

Cardinal said:

To a person against women's right to vote, praising women's suffrage is a "coded insult." If I want to praise women's suffrage, I have no obligations to avoid making that praise in order to consider the feelings of that person. You're just on the wrong side of an important issue, and that's your problem; not mine.

To somebody on the right side of an issue, praising our democratic institutions for saving us from fascism isn't a coded insult but, as you put it, a thing that stands on its own.

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The point is still going over you head. All of those things you could've said straight up, without mentioning anything else.
-we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment
-We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy
-Slaves were freed
-Women gained the right to vote
-African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties

Boom! Done. Fact is, you really only wanted to call Trump a fascist and, by proxy, anyone who supported him. That was your intent. You then generated a whole list of things to try and obfuscate and link other things to your original comment, just to insult more. You're so transparent.

Fishking said:

Ah....so if you have a wife or family and you complement them you also throw in a couple of negatives because nothing can be talked about singularly in a positive manner. Weird.

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No, I do not. I didn't say anything that would imply that, either. Think more carefully. Given what I said, do you think I believe that unbridled and complete honesty is an unadulterated good in all situations? No, obviously I do not (and just as obviously, it is not). Do I know that there are things about my family that are evil? Yes, I do know that--there's something evil about all families. The very concept has a certain evil to it. Of course, it has good as well--and usually, families are more good than evil.

But that's the point--if you're being completely honest, there is nothing that is wholly and thoroughgoingly good. So when it comes to a challenge to (presumably honestly) name something that is an unqualified good, that is impossible.

Fishking said:

The point is still going over you head. All of those things you could've said straight up, without mentioning anything else.
-we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment
-We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy
-Slaves were freed
-Women gained the right to vote
-African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties

Boom! Done. Fact is, you really only wanted to call Trump a fascist and, by proxy, anyone who supported him. That was your intent. You then generated a whole list of things to try and obfuscate and link other things to your original comment, just to insult more. You're so transparent.

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You can't think of anything modern? My caveat is that it has to be a proven fact.

JMB802 said:

You can't think of anything modern? My caveat is that it has to be a proven fact.

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Those weren't things I wrote, those were quoted from the person I was responding to. Care to try again?

ashurbanipal said:

No, I do not. I didn't say anything that would imply that, either. Think more carefully. Given what I said, do you think I believe that unbridled and complete honesty is an unadulterated good in all situations? No, obviously not. Do I know that there are things about my family that are evil? Yes, I do know that--there's something evil about all families. The very concept has a certain evil to it. Of course, it has good as well--and usually, families are more good than evil. But that's the point--if you're being completely honest, there is nothing that is wholly and thoroughgoingly good.

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Yet you do it, none-the-less. Now how about you try your hand at it with regard to the OP, or don't.

Fishking said:

Those weren't things I wrote, those were quoted from the person I was responding to. Care to try again?

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You should put quotes in quotations. Care to try again?

Fishking said:

I'm posting this challenge for anyone who identifies as a liberal/progressive to post something positive about the United States of America, and to do so without equivocations or disclaimers.

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Fishking said:

The point is still going over you head. All of those things you could've said straight up, without mentioning anything else.
-we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment

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I like examples. "We're on a journey of betterment" without specifics is no better than "Imagine world peace." Looks fine on a bumper sticker, but not good for much else.

Fishking said:

-We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy

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Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against monarchists.

Fishking said:

-Slaves were freed

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Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against Southern Confederates.

Fishking said:

-Women gained the right to vote

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Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against misogynists.

Fishking said:

-African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties

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Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against racists.

Fishking said:

Boom! Done. Fact is, you really only wanted to call Trump a fascist and, by proxy, anyone who supported him. That was your intent. You then generated a whole list of things to try and obfuscate and link other things to your original comment, just to insult more. You're so transparent.

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JMB802 said:

American Pride Ticks Up From Last Year's Record Low

After reaching new lows last year, the percentages of U.S. adults who are extremely or very proud to be Americans have recovered somewhat, mostly because of increases among Democrats.

news.gallup.com

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Do you have something personally you want to say? Remember, it's caveated with not making a backhanding insult about Trump, which is basically what your article is. Ya'll do understand that the United States didn't pop into existence in 2016, right?

JMB802 said:

You should put quotes in quotations. Care to try again?

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You butted into a conversation with someone else, without informing yourself of the context. That's your fault, not mine. Try again, but actually answer the OP.

Cardinal said:

I like examples. "We're on a journey of betterment" without specifics is no better than "Imagine world peace." Looks fine on a bumper sticker, but not good for much else.

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Wrong. It means that we've seen constant improvement.

Cardinal said:

Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against monarchists.

Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against Southern Confederates.

Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against misogynists.

Uh oh, you just made a coded insult against racists.

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Nope...none of those comments did that. In fact, I didn't mention those groups at all. I know this is super hard for you.

Fishking said:

Yet you do it, none-the-less. Now how about you try your hand at it with regard to the OP, or don't.

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Two different situations. My wife never asks me to tell her something about herself that is good without qualification. You're asking for something that isn't possible.

Do I think there's good about this country? You bet! It's full of lots of good people--most people at all points of the political spectrum are generally good people (just not perfectly good, and of course there are bad people too). We try to do good things in the world (we screw it up pretty often, though). People are significantly free--more than in most other countries and certainly more than has historically been the case in most parts of the world (but we've still got a lot of room for improvement, especially where power interacts with freedom). There are lots of public libraries (but knowledge is a double-edged sword). We have fantastic wealth (that should probably be distributed in more egalitarian fashion). There are lots and lots of lovely trees (some of which are dying due to environmental destruction and climate change).

You didn't ask us to simply pay America a compliment. You provided a more complicated challenge--one that, again, cannot be met.

Fishking said:

Wrong. It means that we've seen constant improvement.

Nope...none of those comments did that. In fact, I didn't mention those groups at all. I know this is super hard for you.

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The monarchist, the misogynist, the Southern Confederate and the racist would have no problem seeing the "coded insult," just as you saw a coded insult when I praised the United States for using democratic institutions to reverse fascism. It says far more about the offended party than the speaker.

Fishking said:

You butted into a conversation with someone else, without informing yourself of the context. That's your fault, not mine. Try again, but actually answer the OP.

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You don't get to choose which comments I respond to, you don't know how to use the quote function, I did answer the OP and "your" thread has too many foolish rules.

I'm out. Have a great day!

Here, I'll show you what I mean:

Fishking said:

-we're a nation that is always on a journey of betterment

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Sure, but that implies we aren't perfect...which just proves my point. Further, are we really doing the very best we can do? I doubt it.

Fishking said:

-We established our independence to rid ourselves of monarchy

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This could only be an unadulterated good if there were nothing evil in our history...but of course, there is.

Fishking said:

-Slaves were freed

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Sure. How many were not freed (e.g. died before emancipation)? Here, you're talking about justice finally delivered after a long injustice--but justice is never an unadulterated good. Ask the family of a murder victim which they would rather--to have their loved one back so that no trial or investigation were ever necessary, or to see the murderer caught and punished appropriately? I suspect nearly 100% would opt for the former; and (crucially) anyone can recognize that the former is much more good than the latter. We do the latter only because it's the best we can do in this world...which is again exactly my point. We can only ever manifest a partial good.

Fishking said:

-Women gained the right to vote

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See above re: slavery, and make the appropriate substitutions here. Furthermore, are there unwise women who exercise their franchise unwisely? Surely there are, just as there are unwise men who do the same--hard to figure out how you could call an unwise person with power a good thing.

Fishking said:

-African Americans gained (in part) their civil liberties

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See above re: slavery and women's franchise.

Fishking said:

Boom! Done. Fact is, you really only wanted to call Trump a fascist and, by proxy, anyone who supported him. That was your intent. You then generated a whole list of things to try and obfuscate and link other things to your original comment, just to insult more. You're so transparent.

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Now, aren't all of the above preferable to the alternative? Absolutely! If there are slaves, we should free them. If women may not vote, we should ensure that they may. If members of a race are not equal before the law, we should ensure that they become so. But preferable and wholly good are not the same thing.

Part of the point of being a progressive is noticing that there are improvements to be made, and to focus on those. Many conservatives seem to think (and perhaps some make this point disingenuously) that such indicates progressives hate America. I'm afraid I don't see that reasoning, however--you don't expend so much energy on something you don't care about, and you don't try to improve what you hate.

Fishking said:

I'm posting this challenge for anyone who identifies as a liberal/progressive to post something positive about the United States of America, and to do so without equivocations or disclaimers.

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The US has provided great gifts to the world: a modern form of representative democracy, plus our singular contributions of jazz and rock and roll.

JMB802 said:

You don't get to choose which comments I respond to, you don't know how to use the quote function, I did answer the OP and "your" thread has too many foolish rules.

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Yes, you're free to make idiotic responses due to you butting into a conversasion that you didn't bother to obtain the context for. Fire away.

JMB802 said:

I'm out. Have a great day!

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No, you didn't, and I addressed that. If you can't answer the question then I agree that it's best for you to "be out" of the thread.

ashurbanipal said:

Two different situations. My wife never asks me to tell her something about herself that is good without qualification. You're asking for something that isn't possible.

Do I think there's good about this country? You bet! It's full of lots of good people--most people at all points of the political spectrum are generally good people (just not perfectly good, and of course there are bad people too). We try to do good things in the world (we screw it up pretty often, though). People are significantly free--more than in most other countries and certainly more than has historically been the case in most parts of the world (but we've still got a lot of room for improvement, especially where power interacts with freedom). There are lots of public libraries (but knowledge is a double-edged sword). We have fantastic wealth (that should probably be distributed in more egalitarian fashion). There are lots and lots of lovely trees (some of which are dying due to environmental destruction and climate change).

You didn't ask us to simply pay America a compliment. You provided a more complicated challenge--one that, again, cannot be met.

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It's actually quite easily met. Many have done it already.

Fishking said:

Yes, you're free to make idiotic responses due to you butting into a conversasion that you didn't bother to obtain the context for. Fire away.

No, you didn't, and I addressed that. If you can't answer the question then I agree that it's best for you to "be out" of the thread.

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It's best for me to be out of the thread? HAHAHA.
Read post #65, that's your answer.
Have a great day!