• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Catch the predator. To the shame of the F-22 "Raptor"

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed

The video shows training dogfight between a French fighter "Rafale" and the American 5th generation fighter F-22 "Raptor." And oddly enough, this sham fight, American fighter pilot - it turns out defeated! And not once, but with the score 4-1 in favor of the French in a series of five battles of training!

What should be interesting for us in this video?
1) "Raptor" can bring down even airplanes 4th generation.
2)Record air fight, unmasks the myth of the "super-maneuverability» F-22. French "Rafale" in the course of the battle hanging on the tail of the "Raptor". And the pilot of the "Raptor" can not do anything. Aerobatic properties of the French machines are a head taller than the American F-22.
3) Statements about "invisibility" F-22, and so puts a big question, is now clearly debunked. French "Rafale" repeatedly and confidently captures and maintains "Raptor" to its aiming system.
 

Thoreau72

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
29,639
Reaction score
7,637
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Wow, very cool video--thanks :)

Makes you wonder how the Sukoi would do.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
This is the first time I actually watched this video but a few weeks ago I heard a few naval aviators (FA-18 pilots) talking about the video.
It has little to do with the quality or maneuverability of the F-22 or Rafael but the quality of the pilots who were flying these aircraft.

What I did pick up in the conversation, the dog fight wasn't under combat conditions as if it were a "Red Flag" or "Top Gun" combat training mission.

But the biggest problem that the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps fighter pilots are experiencing going back almost three years now it that most fighter squadrons in America have had sever cuts made that funds aren't available for just not maintenance and spare parts but even for fuel. That most squadrons are only flying between 20 % to 60% of the scheduled flight training missions. This goes back over two years ago before sequestration.

It gets even worse. One fighter squadron while going through an air superiority course were ordered to land and refuel and return to their home air base to attend sensitivity training courses. I guess in todays PC military, everyone is required to attend PC sensitivity classes instead of training for war. This has a sever impact of combat readiness.

Since then, 1/3 of the Air Force squadrons have been grounded. Navy Air Wings have been deactivated. and worse of all, the navy Blue Angels have been grounded.

I suppose you can search for a website that has a forum where professionals participate in where they nick pic away at this video. But I think it comes down to that the French pilot's Cn'C isn't Barak Obama so he's getting sufficient time in the cockpit to prepare for air combat.
 

Occam's Razor

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
2,069
Reaction score
1,122
Location
Oregon
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
This is the first time I actually watched this video but a few weeks ago I heard a few naval aviators (FA-18 pilots) talking about the video.
It has little to do with the quality or maneuverability of the F-22 or Rafael but the quality of the pilots who were flying these aircraft.

What I did pick up in the conversation, the dog fight wasn't under combat conditions as if it were a "Red Flag" or "Top Gun" combat training mission.

But the biggest problem that the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps fighter pilots are experiencing going back almost three years now it that most fighter squadrons in America have had sever cuts made that funds aren't available for just not maintenance and spare parts but even for fuel. That most squadrons are only flying between 20 % to 60% of the scheduled flight training missions. This goes back over two years ago before sequestration.

It gets even worse. One fighter squadron while going through an air superiority course were ordered to land and refuel and return to their home air base to attend sensitivity training courses. I guess in todays PC military, everyone is required to attend PC sensitivity classes instead of training for war. This has a sever impact of combat readiness.

Since then, 1/3 of the Air Force squadrons have been grounded. Navy Air Wings have been deactivated. and worse of all, the navy Blue Angels have been grounded.

I suppose you can search for a website that has a forum where professionals participate in where they nick pic away at this video. But I think it comes down to that the French pilot's Cn'C isn't Barak Obama so he's getting sufficient time in the cockpit to prepare for air combat.

Great, now all the terrorists and rogue states know...

... way to go! :)
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Great, now all the terrorists and rogue states know...

... way to go! :)
Hay Occam's Razor. :2wave:

But damn it Occam's razor, you just confirmed it for them. :)

But wasn't it Senator Obama back in 2007 who said that since Al Qaeda doesn't have a navy or air force we don't need a navy or air force ? I believe he said something like that.

There's one PD forum member flolating around here who some months ago was arguing that aerial dog fights are a thing in the past and you will never see fighters engaged in dog fights again.
I mentioned to him they said the same thing during the early 1960's and that's why the first F-4's Phantoms were built without a gun. Vietnam would prove that to be wrong.

I'll do a little nitpicking on the video. You don't get involved in a dog fight while carrying external fuel tanks. The F-22 was carrying two external fuel tanks.

I'm old enough to have personally known P-51 pilots who use to escort AAF B-17's over Europe during WW ll. They said as soon as they saw Luftwaffe fighters they dropped their external fuel tanks.
 

Surtr

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
7,017
Reaction score
2,980
Location
The greatest planet in the world.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
But wasn't it Senator Obama back in 2007 who said that since Al Qaeda doesn't have a navy or air force we don't need a navy or air force ? I believe he said something like that.
Maybe, but we would have had a hell of a time getting boots and fresh supplies on the ground on a regular basis without them. I guess it is asking a lot to expect a pencil pusher in DC to understand things like logistics, or that the Military does a hell of a lot more than kill people, though.
 

PirateMk1

Resident Martian ;)
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
16,879
Reaction score
8,086
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Hay Occam's Razor. :2wave:

But damn it Occam's razor, you just confirmed it for them. :)

But wasn't it Senator Obama back in 2007 who said that since Al Qaeda doesn't have a navy or air force we don't need a navy or air force ? I believe he said something like that.

There's one PD forum member flolating around here who some months ago was arguing that aerial dog fights are a thing in the past and you will never see fighters engaged in dog fights again.
I mentioned to him they said the same thing during the early 1960's and that's why the first F-4's Phantoms were built without a gun. Vietnam would prove that to be wrong.

I'll do a little nitpicking on the video. You don't get involved in a dog fight while carrying external fuel tanks. The F-22 was carrying two external fuel tanks.

I'm old enough to have personally known P-51 pilots who use to escort AAF B-17's over Europe during WW ll. They said as soon as they saw Luftwaffe fighters they dropped their external fuel tanks.

If the F-22 had drop tanks on as you claim, then he would be in a CAT-3 condition, which means no extreme maneuvering and no inverted flight. He was sitting duck basically. Why he would have drop tanks in this scenario is vague to me. They would screw up his stealth, maneuverability, power to weight ratio. Its unusual to keep the tanks attached. The only reason pilots need real flight time is to condition their bodies for actual combat because as you heard the pilot on the video combat flights are extremely strenuous and it takes time for one to become acclimated. The simulators nowadays are very very good. So much so they can be used to certify people on aircraft.

Oh I agree we will see aerial dogfights, though I doubt with manned aircraft. Good pilots are expensive and rare. Aircraft are much easier to replace.
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I think we can all agree that the Taliban Air Force hasn't fared well against the Raptor Now anyone that thinks the Armée de l'Air has a chance against the USAF might have to reconsider their position? I'm thinkin' one AWACS and three Squadrons of Falcons would decide it in an afternoon of course that is if we still have that many active? :mrgreen:
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,964
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think we can all agree that every modern plane is a great machinery for destruction. You don't build bad planes. You build good planes. And all of them have some hidden, cool things that are supposed to give them the edge.

The F-22 is a good fighter. The Rafale is a good one. The new mig is a good one. etc.

Heck. Look at the modern tanks too.
Abrams is a great tank.
So is the Merkava for the jews.
So is the british challenger
So is the german leopold.
so is the french leclerc.
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Hay Occam's Razor. :2wave:

But damn it Occam's razor, you just confirmed it for them. :)

But wasn't it Senator Obama back in 2007 who said that since Al Qaeda doesn't have a navy or air force we don't need a navy or air force ? I believe he said something like that.

There's one PD forum member flolating around here who some months ago was arguing that aerial dog fights are a thing in the past and you will never see fighters engaged in dog fights again.
I mentioned to him they said the same thing during the early 1960's and that's why the first F-4's Phantoms were built without a gun. Vietnam would prove that to be wrong.

I'll do a little nitpicking on the video. You don't get involved in a dog fight while carrying external fuel tanks. The F-22 was carrying two external fuel tanks.

I'm old enough to have personally known P-51 pilots who use to escort AAF B-17's over Europe during WW ll. They said as soon as they saw Luftwaffe fighters they dropped their external fuel tanks.

In the video, filmed from the cockpit of French fighter, no external fuel tanks to "Raptor" is not observed.
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Rainman of all the nations you listed who is going to be on which side?
Are these nations going to be facing the Chinese?
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think we can all agree that every modern plane is a great machinery for destruction. You don't build bad planes. You build good planes. And all of them have some hidden, cool things that are supposed to give them the edge.

The F-22 is a good fighter. The Rafale is a good one. The new mig is a good one. etc.

Heck. Look at the modern tanks too.
Abrams is a great tank.
So is the Merkava for the jews.
So is the british challenger
So is the german leopold.
so is the french leclerc.

I think the F-22 prefer to use as an interceptor in the medium and long distances, where the links of the F-22, using data from aerial surveillance of aircraft control (E-3 «Sentry» or Boeing 737 AEW & C), must "shoot" the enemy from long range . This is due to the fact that the F-22 is very expensive and so is the prestige of the U.S. Air Force and their "invincible" image. The loss of the F-22 in combat will destroy an idea of ​​U.S. military aviation as the best and most advanced in the world. Therefore, the "Raptor" will never be allowed into the melee, where much depends on the skill of the pilot and the "military success" rather than from perfect technique. In a real fight, "Raptor" to work in passive mode of its radar and will shy away from rapprochement with the enemy for a short distance.
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
That's true I can't think of a nation that we will go to war with that would even warrant the use of the Raptor to gain absolute air superiority.
But trust me they'll use it, I mean c'mon they are bombing them poor tally-bons with B-2's for heavens sake :doh
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
At medium and long range - F-22 is a very tough opponent. It has reduced visibility in some ranges of radio waves and infrared part of the optical spectrum. This makes it difficult not only to detect its presence as a firm grip of the purpose weapon. He is able to approach the target of attack at supersonic cruising speeds, which reduces the time of his stay in the area of ​​the ground-based air defense and allows you to "get away" from enemy fighters. It has a very sophisticated means of communication and airborne reconnaissance and strike systems, allowing work on targets without their telltale radiation (in passive mode). All this gives the F-22 benefits, but does it only element of U.S. aerial reconnaissance-strike complexes. Element with a fairly narrow function, but effective in the performance of the complex. In isolation from the means of aerial reconnaissance and control - "Raptor" loses much of its advantages.
In the fight with the F-22 are particularly important means of electronic warfare (EW) and the means of long-range air defense. In addition, the missiles of "air-air" large radius, for example, Russian - P-37, RBB-DB, CS-172 (which are superior in range all Western equivalents) and some other developments. In addition, - aircraft management, for these missiles - a great goal, and actively radiating perfectly with the background of noise. And without them, the F-22 loses most of its benefits.
 
Last edited:

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Certainly you aren't trying to suggest the Former Soviet Union (much less the French) would have a ghost of a chance against the US in a military conflict ?
 

apdst

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
133,631
Reaction score
30,928
Location
Bagdad, La.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative

The video shows training dogfight between a French fighter "Rafale" and the American 5th generation fighter F-22 "Raptor." And oddly enough, this sham fight, American fighter pilot - it turns out defeated! And not once, but with the score 4-1 in favor of the French in a series of five battles of training!

What should be interesting for us in this video?
1) "Raptor" can bring down even airplanes 4th generation.
2)Record air fight, unmasks the myth of the "super-maneuverability» F-22. French "Rafale" in the course of the battle hanging on the tail of the "Raptor". And the pilot of the "Raptor" can not do anything. Aerobatic properties of the French machines are a head taller than the American F-22.
3) Statements about "invisibility" F-22, and so puts a big question, is now clearly debunked. French "Rafale" repeatedly and confidently captures and maintains "Raptor" to its aiming system.

Let's have a do-over...with live munitions...and see how it turns out.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Maybe, but we would have had a hell of a time getting boots and fresh supplies on the ground on a regular basis without them. I guess it is asking a lot to expect a pencil pusher in DC to understand things like logistics, or that the Military does a hell of a lot more than kill people, though.

Fed Ex will probably take over the logistical support for the Air Force the way things are going with the Obama administration. If Obama doesn't accomplish it by the end of 2016, Hillary will in 2017.
 

Surtr

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
7,017
Reaction score
2,980
Location
The greatest planet in the world.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Fed Ex will probably take over the logistical support for the Air Force the way things are going with the Obama administration. If Obama doesn't accomplish it by the end of 2016, Hillary will in 2017.

Increasing cost, while drastically reducing efficiency. Sounds about right for DC.
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Let's have a do-over...with live munitions...and see how it turns out.

In a live battle - 5:0. ("Raptor" perish). Excellent pilot, spending battle on the simulator "Raptor". (4:1) In reality - American pilots are weak. (no training). Although it will be even worse. (judging by the reduction of the budget)
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
In that case I think the USA should just surrender now and save the time and effort.
Only question is: surrender to who?
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
In that case I think the USA should just surrender now and save the time and effort.
Only question is: surrender to who?

* laughs * it does not help. 17 000 000 000 000 - external debt. Internal - a lot more.

Only question is: surrender to who?

Apache, Navajo or Cheyenne

political-pictures-geronimo-illegal-aliens.jpg
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
:lamo good one
Don't worry 'bout that bottomless pit of debt we are flinging ourselves into
I'm sure if we just keep on digging everything will work out just fine ;)
If we dig all the way through we'll end up in China?

At the rate things are going we may never get to see the Raptor in combat since it seems the only way to
really see what our aircraft are capable of is to give em to the Israelis ? :boom
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
:lamo good one
Don't worry 'bout that bottomless pit of debt we are flinging ourselves into
I'm sure if we just keep on digging everything will work out just fine ;)
If we dig all the way through we'll end up in China?

At the rate things are going we may never get to see the Raptor in combat since it seems the only way to
really see what our aircraft are capable of is to give em to the Israelis ? :boom

* laughs *
"Raptor" to give the Israelis - a good idea. And in time. Because - palestinians shoot down Israeli fighter jet commonplace sticks. Palestinians shoot down Israeli fighter jet in Gaza - News - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video
 

AngryOldGuy

double secret probation
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
658
Location
Phx,Az
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
well ok the Pali's claim to have shot it down the Jews say it was a crash and it ended up in the Med
and the pilots are all quite safe

I will say it's a good thing the Rooskies aren't into providing their best anti-aircraft weapons to the nutcase terrorist organizations
that could make it a bit rough for the western flyers eh?
 

Tovarish

Banned
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
417
Reaction score
54
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
well ok the Pali's claim to have shot it down the Jews say it was a crash and it ended up in the Med
and the pilots are all quite safe

I will say it's a good thing the Rooskies aren't into providing their best anti-aircraft weapons to the nutcase terrorist organizations
that could make it a bit rough for the western flyers eh?

There is no contradiction. Palestinian stick damaged Israeli aircraft - ( not "Rapter", yet).

...for the western flyers eh?

Probably Russian still learning from the Americans. (For example - the chemical weapons Saddam Hussein.)

By the way, the terrorists are secured by American and Israeli weapons. Look - Libya, Syria, ..... Pakistan, .... In general worldwide. Russian do not sell weapons to terrorists.
 
Top Bottom