Cars, cars, and more cars in this “booming” economy

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You make a good point above. My wife and I were a young married couple when I went in the Army, and it was rough making it on a Private's pay. Luckily, I had the knowledge to keep our old beater running, but anything significant that might have happened to it would perhaps have killed us in parts alone. Or led us into buying another beater from a used car lot at horrendous interest rates, and that new/used car would have been somewhat an unknown quantity.

When I made Sp4, we were still on a fairly stringent budget, but could see our way to clear to financing a new car. Which we did, and the spectre of unforeseen costs largely went away. The new car was under warranty, and we could take extended trips almost worry free. That would not have been the case with the old Dodge Dart with 150,000 or so on it.

Oh yeah I neglected to mention that when we were in our late twenties and early thirties we were buying used beaters.
Karen's first new car was a 1993 Eagle Vision (aka Dodge Intrepid) and before she could pay it off her former husband got it tee boned on the passenger side rear quarter panel and he wound up tweaking the rear axle on that side, so I got good at fixing crap like that so the car wouldn't dog leg down the road.
My first new car was a 2000 Kia Sportage OMG what a PoS that was, but it was what I could afford and I needed the 35 mpg because I was doing about 150 to 200 miles a day for work.

Kia seems to have reinvented themselves in the last six or seven years but that 2000 Sportage was a tinker toy with the structural integrity of a beer can.

 

[Ahlevah]

No I didn’t. I traded a paid-off loaded 2015 Impala LTZ which offset a lot of the sales tax. And wow, it’s depreciated a whopping $10,000.00 in five years. Go out and try to buy a new 2024 similar model today and see how much you’re paying.

Okay, so you bought a car in 2015, financed it, took a depreciation hit on that vehicle, then after you paid it off you immediately rolled its residual value into another vehicle at the top of its deprecation cycle. Is that correct? Nothing wrong with that if you prefer that new car smell and not having to worry about oil changes or repairs, but if you’re going to just dump it as soon as you pay it off wouldn’t it be cheaper to just lease one? Or do you also get your jollies by throwing money away? And for the record, that 3.5% financing went the way of the Dodo.

I’m retired. I went through my years of driving higher mileage used vehicles that had no warranty and I used to do a lot of the maintenance and repairs myself. Not anymore. I live my life and I enjoy driving a nice vehicle because I can afford it. I don’t scrimp by trying to squirrel away every dime I can, because even though I’ll have plenty of money to pass down, I can’t take it with me. So why not enjoy it?

I get it, and if you think you need to blow money just to enjoy your life farbeit for me to talk you out of it.

Don’t sit there and say you drive without insurance. Liability only, probably. Just don’t let any other driver wreck into you.

I have full liability. The upper liability limit on the policy is $500,000. I’m required to have it, because I also carry a multi-million-dollar umbrella policy. I also carry uninsured motorist and have a no-fault medical payments clause like moat people. And, yes, my premium through Progressive is ridiculously cheap. The cost of auto insurance is the collision and comprehensive coverage, which I don’t have. If I’m ever in an at-fault auto accident, which I never have, I’ll just throw the car away and get another used Toyota or Honda, something like a Rav4 or CRV. They’re cheap and reliable. In fact, they’re so reliable I’ll just warrant it myself.

And my loan, which is paid in full, was 3.5%. Gas is $2.77 per gallon here, at the QT right down the road. If I couldn’t handle the fuel cost, I wouldn’t have bought it.

I’ll bet my clunker still costs less, though. It almost pays me to drive it.

And there’s your crystal ball again. Yeah, if I had only bought Microsoft back in 1995…

Well, you were the guy who brought up the subject of “luck.” You didn’t have to be that lucky. You could have just leased the thing, or bought a Tundra, which retains about 74% of its value after five years even though it also now has a plastic tailgate handle.

None of us are on this planet forever. I’ve seen plenty of people live frugal lives, investing like mad for a retirement that they never make it to. And you can’t buy back time, either.

Okay, I realize I can be a bit snarky at times, but it’s never intended to be mean-spirited. So let me put it this way: You probably worked hard your entire life, as did I. You do with the fruits of your labor whatever it is that gives you the most pleasure and happiness. If that’s buying a new vehicle every few years on credit, you do that. Dave Ramsey isn’t here. I’m sure you do what you want, and have no regrets about it. Like you said, none of us are here forever.

Oh, you think I don’t travel? Or that owning my nice truck is some kind of sacrifice to other aspects of my life? You’re absolutely wrong. Going to St. Louis this weekend and we’ll make the six + hour trip in my wife’s nice 2019 Equinox. That’ll break my wallet, won’t it?

No, I made no such assumption. The point was to do whatever maximizes your own happiness. Maybe you don’t want to eat at Joe’s in Destin as much as I do.

But hey, enjoy wasting your time fixing oil leaks, brakes, overheating, or praying your sad vehicle makes it to that place 2 3/4 hours away. I’m past that stage in my life.

It’s a Toyota. It’s not like those Fords and Chevies you see broken down on the side of the road all the time. About the only thing I do to it is preventive maintenance.

And I assure you, I can afford it. I retired early at age 60 and I don’t even need to touch my investments thanks to my pension. You’re aiming at the wrong person here.

No need to be paranoid. I’m not “aiming” at you.

 

[StillBallin75]

Cars aren't selling because the prices are ridiculous, relative to a normal persons income. It's not just the inability to get financing.

Hell most people buying cars are already taking on loans they shouldn't be.

 

[Visbek]

Hello, your prophet of doom is back once again to talk about—the auto market!

Here we go

Here’s the main problem: the cost of financing.

Or.... The problem is that you want the economy to fail, and will regurgitate any flimsy excuse to make your case.

To wit: Average monthly total vehicle sales in 2024 are only down 5.8% below pre-pandemic levels. That's hardly a disaster, given higher interest rates.

Oh, about that? That's deliberate. The whole point of the Fed raising interest rates was to cool off an overheated economy.

Oh, and guess what? Surprise!!! There's some good news in auto sales data. Notably, used car sales are now back to normal.

Auto manufacturing employment is also recovering, and is way above pre-pandemic levels. It hasn't been this high in over 20 years. When do you plan to celebrate?

Another issue is customers are tapped out. 84-month loans have been discontinued...

Dude. 84 month auto loans are a terrible idea. The interest rates are nearly double a 60 month loan, and the total interest paid is nuts.

If you take out a $30,000 loan at 7%, you're going to pay $8,000 in interest. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

So there you have it, folks. More evidence of a “booming” economy.

It's evidence of a soft landing... which is exactly what we want.

Let me just add that getting access today to useful “boots on the ground” information is so much easier in this day of social media.

Yes, it's much easier to get access to manipulative and biased data, that services an agenda, than ever before.

 

[Grogu]

Okay, so you bought a car in 2015, financed it, took a depreciation hit on that vehicle, then after you paid it off you immediately rolled its residual value into another vehicle at the top of its deprecation cycle. Is that correct? Nothing wrong with that if you prefer that new car smell and not having to worry about oil changes or repairs, but if you’re going to just dump it as soon as you pay it off wouldn’t it be cheaper to just lease one? Or do you also get your jollies by throwing money away? And for the record, that 3.5% financing went the way of the Dodo.

What you don’t know is how much I had in that Impala, which is kind of a key point in calculating what my depreciation would be. My Impala was paid off, and so is my Silverado. I’ll be keeping that Silverado for another 4 or 5 years. I bought it because a) I wanted it, b) I got a great deal on it, c) I could afford it, and d) it was a pre-retirement gift to myself.

Ah yes, leasing, the method to having an overpriced vehicle or one normally out of your price range because you couldn’t afford to buy it. Leasing is strictly a cash flow finance tool. And a cardinal sin in leasing is dumping trade equity into a lease. There is only one reason to do that, and it’s to preserve cash to be used for other short term purposes.

I get it, and if you think you need to blow money just to enjoy your life farbeit for me to talk you out of it.

You’re blowing your money on trips with nothing to show for it but your own pleasure, so go figure. As I said, good luck sweating it out getting there if it breaks down on you.

I have full liability. <edited due to character limitation>

Then why beef about my insurance as something costly that I have?

I’ll bet my clunker still costs less, though. It almost pays me to drive it.

I like peace of mind when I get behind the wheel. Not a gamble that I make it to my destination.

Well, you were the guy who brought up the subject of “luck.” You didn’t have to be that lucky. You could have just leased the thing, or bought a Tundra, which retains about 74% of its value after five years even though it also now has a plastic tailgate handle.

Luck pertaining to when I bought it. Like pre-Covid. Try getting about $14,000.00 off MSRP on a full size pickup truck today. You can’t. I’d never buy a Tundra. I doubt they’ll be retaining any supposed 74% value (proof?) with that colossal engine replacement recall happening now.

Okay, I realize I can be a bit snarky at times, but it’s never intended to be mean-spirited. So let me put it this way: You probably worked hard your entire life, as did I. You do with the fruits of your labor whatever it is that gives you the most pleasure and happiness. If that’s buying a new vehicle every few years on credit, you do that. Dave Ramsey isn’t here. I’m sure you do what you want, and have no regrets about it. Like you said, none of us are here forever.

As I stated, I have no plans on trading my 5-year old paid off Silverado with 43,000 miles anytime soon. It will likely be 9-10 years old when I do, because I take immaculate care of it. I’m not churning vehicles. I’ve got more than enough money saved and invested, and I won’t have to draw on that for years because of my pension. I’ll probably have to take out RMDs at 72. Dave Ramsey wouldn’t have much to tear apart on my financial condition. Besides, I’d just tell him to get a life.

No, I made no such assumption. The point was to do whatever maximizes your own happiness. Maybe you don’t want to eat at Joe’s in Destin as much as I do.

My mistake then. It seemed you were pretty much being critical of my choice to buy a new vehicle while you extolled the virtues of your travel instead.

It’s a Toyota. It’s not like those Fords and Chevies you see broken down on the side of the road all the time. About the only thing I do to it is preventive maintenance.

See the Tundra recall commentary above.

No need to be paranoid. I’m not “aiming” at you.

Fair enough.

 

[Ahlevah]

You expect everyone else to be at the same point in life as you are?

No.

Or are you just looking down your nose at them because they aren't?

No, but no one’s going to get a free pass when it comes to stupidity when their stupid decisions affect other people. I’m not talking about people who, due to circumstances beyond their control, have bad things happen to them. I’m talking about the stupid people who lend money to other stupid people who buy more house or car than they can afford.

But the fact is, we're a minority...most people NEED new vehicles, and they NEED financing.

No, they don’t “need” new vehicles or financing if they can’t afford them. What they need to do is live within their means. In recent years people have been permitted to roll old auto loans into new ones. The Fed has encouraged this by providing cheap credit, and it’s shown a willingness to completely backstop this sort of activity. With prices for newer used vehicles crashing, that gravy train is over. Now, in an effort to spur homes sales, you have more idiots talking about 40-year mortgages. They’re nuts.

Do you have an alternative aside from keeping old used cars that don't necessarily fit everyone else's needs?

Take the bus. Ride a bicycle. Phone a friend. Save up for a beater. But don’t get in hock up to your eyeballs.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Take the bus. Ride a bicycle. Phone a friend. Save up for a beater. But don’t get in hock up to your eyeballs.

That would be bad for your doom and gloom theories, as it's obvious you're literally on your knees praying for more people to be in hock up to their eyeballs.
PS: Used cars are a funny thing because certain models end up actually appreciating in value, and for the average person it's always a surprise finding out which ones do.
For instance, it is hard to believe that two cars from "Breaking Bad" are actually going up in value right now, the Pontiac Aztek, which as ugly as it is, is still prettier than a Nissan Juke, and the 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue driven by "Mike Ermentraut".




Also, almost ANY vehicle built, driven or destroyed on the very popular Motor Trend show
"Roadkill".
Don't take my word for it, go and price a 1966 Ford Ranchero, a 70 Dodge Super Bee,
or even an AMC Hornet 360. Almost any of the over 200 car models featured on that show
winds up enjoying a market bump because Roadkill has a community of some 16 million hardcore
fans who latch onto anything Finnegan and Freiburger pick up as a project.

 

[Ahlevah]

Yes, it's much easier to get access to manipulative and biased data, that services an agenda, than ever before.

When you go to your FRED charts, you’re only getting data that comes from commercial banks. Non-bank lenders have assumed an ever larger role in auto finance in recent years, but they’re not too keen on sharing their data. So YouTube channels operated by auto dealers like David “Lucky” Lopez and others is insightful. I’m still trying to find a channel run by an auto dealer, real estate agent, or mortgage broker who will tell me how wonderful everything is, but I can’t find one. Luxury home sales—houses bought by the 1%ers, is probably doing okay, but that doesn’t really do much for the rest of us.

 

[Ahlevah]

What you don’t know is how much I had in that Impala, which is kind of a key point in calculating what my depreciation would be. My Impala was paid off, and so is my Silverado. I’ll be keeping that Silverado for another 4 or 5 years. I bought it because a) I wanted it, b) I got a great deal on it, c) I could afford it, and d) it was a pre-retirement gift to myself.

Okay, and I’m not faulting you for that at all. Where I’m really having issues is with the people who rolled old, underwater auto loans into new ones.

Ah yes, leasing, the method to having an overpriced vehicle or one normally out of your price range because you couldn’t afford to buy it. Leasing is strictly a cash flow finance tool. And a cardinal sin in leasing is dumping trade equity into a lease. There is only one reason to do that, and it’s to preserve cash to be used for other short term purposes.

I’m not saying use a lease to get into a car you otherwise could not afford. But they do tend to make sense for people who like luxury cars and want to get into a new one every few years, because those cars lose so much value quickly. A Mercedes C- or S-Class depreciates about 50% after five years. But whether to lease or buy depends on personal preference, driving habits, and the particular terms of the contract.

You’re blowing your money on trips with nothing to show for it but your own pleasure, so go figure.

Haha! Touché! But happiness itself is nothing more than a state of mind. Experiences are worth more than things to me at this point. Besides, you can’t take it with you.

As I said, good luck sweating it out getting there if it breaks down on you.

I suppose there’s always a first time, but in twenty years that Toyota hasn’t left me stranded yet. And I’m not sure I’d be any happier having my new(er) Chevy or Ford break down and leave me stranded hundreds of miles away from home but with the presumed comfort of knowing that the thing is covered under warranty. That’s why if I take a long trip I either fly or rent a car or both. If it breaks down I’ll use my extended towing coverage to have the thing towed to the nearest Hertz or Budget rental office, where it becomes their problem and they hand me the keys to another one. Then I always buy the CDW. That way if a rock cracks the windshield or dents the hood, that, too is the rental car company’s problem, not mine. Plus, when I rent I get the use of a new, often upgraded vehicle, which makes the trip more pleasurable.

Then why beef about my insurance as something costly that I have?

Because liability insurance is cheap. Collision is not. Modern cars have a lot of expensive parts like LiDAR sensors to replace, and people are crashing more than they used to. Also, I don’t have to bother with extended warranties or gap coverage either. Like I said, if it breaks down and ends up costing more to fix it than it’s worth, I’ll just junk it or sell it as is and get another one.

I like peace of mind when I get behind the wheel. Not a gamble that I make it to my destination.

Peace of mind for me is driving in South Mississippi, where 25% of drivers have no auto insurances, and not worrying about someone creaming my 20-year-old, twice-wrecked jalopy. (On one occasion it was rear-ended at a stoplight, and again in the left-rear quarter panel by a lady who hit me as she entered the road I was driving on. Altogether, it’s had about $7,000 worth of damage done to it, all of it paid by the other drivers’ insurer.) That was my first new car. After those two instances it was probably at that point that I said to myself it would be the last.

Then there are the parking lot morons who always want to bang the side of the car with their doors, or back into its bumper. Rocks and windshields are another problem. New windshields often have expensive sensors that need to be programmed. I don’t have that concern with windshields or any other crap that has to be programmed by a mechanic with an expensive scan tool. In short, I don’t worry about any of that. I don’t think I’d feel the same way if I had a typical new car, which sells today for about $48,000. That’s still real money to someone who worked most of his life for tips.

 

[beefheart]

I'm still having problems finding the car I want, its in demand. 2024/2024 Prius Prime hybrid electric.

 

[Ahlevah]

That would be bad for your doom and gloom theories, as it's obvious you're literally on your knees praying for more people to be in hock up to their eyeballs.

Actually, I’m on my knees praying for fewer stupid people who think they’re happier buying cars they can’t afford, as well as the even stupider people who give them the money.

PS: Used cars are a funny thing because certain models end up actually appreciating in value, and for the average person it's always a surprise finding out which ones do.

There were several references in Deadpool and Wolverine to a particular Honda Odyssey minivan. After the movie I made a comment to my son about how it would be cool to find one and put a lowering kit on it and hotrod it. I think I’d add a nice sound system with huge subwoofers as well.

**Warning: Adult Language!**

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Peace of mind for me is driving in South Mississippi, where 25% of drivers have no auto insurances, and not worrying about someone creaming my 20-year-old, twice-wrecked jalopy. (On one occasion it was rear-ended at a stoplight, and again in the left-rear quarter panel by a lady who hit me as she entered the road I was driving on. Altogether, it’s had about $7,000 worth of damage done to it, all of it paid by the other drivers’ insurer.) That was my first new car. After those two instances it was probably at that point that I said to myself it would be the last.

Then there are the parking lot morons who always want to bang the side of the car with their doors, or back into its bumper. Rocks and windshields are another problem. New windshields often have expensive sensors that need to be programmed. I don’t have that concern with windshields or any other crap that has to be programmed by a mechanic with an expensive scan tool. In short, I don’t worry about any of that. I don’t think I’d feel the same way if I had a typical new car, which sells today for about $48,000. That’s still real money to someone who worked most of his life for tips.

I never thought I would ever hear a person cheer for no insurance in any state.
Hagerty tells me that a 100% mint condition 65 Chrysler 300 could hit as high as 70 thousand bucks.
The kind I will end up getting won't be quite that nice but likely in the 30-40 range, so it won't have enjoyed a rotisserie or body off restoration.
It may have gotten mechanical and some significant cosmetic restore however, just not right down to the bare components...not quite.

And maybe one seat might have a tiny rip or the headliner isn't perfect, or maybe it has blemishes in one or two inside door "cards" (panels) as perfect examples are hard to find.

But these cars were around 5000 new if well optioned so adjusting for inflation they have held up well.
If it ends up being just a low mileage survivor in excellent condition it might be worth more as it is original...maybe an old man or old lady car.

There is a reason I intend to go with Hagerty for insurance. If you know, you know.
I'll be maintaining full coverage on that 65 Chrysler. The liability only policy on my eyesore 2006 Scion is about 69 dollars a month!

PS: Re no insurance, there are reasons why California finally allows illegals to get modified driver licenses, so that they CAN GET auto insurance.
No state or federal benefits, lots of restrictions, good only as a license to drive legally, not valid for much else.
But that protects both new and used car owners alike, and oddballs like me who own classics.

 

[Ahlevah]

I never thought I would ever hear a person cheer for no insurance in any state.

Who did that?

PS: Re no insurance, there are reasons why California finally allows illegals to get modified driver licenses, so that they CAN GET auto insurance.
No state or federal benefits, lots of restrictions, good only as a license to drive legally, not valid for much else.
But that protects both new and used car owners alike, and oddballs like me who own classics.

Here we just carry uninsured motorist coverage. Saves the hassle of filing a third-party claim. Even with all of the deadbeats, it’s still pretty cheap.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Who did that?

You did, you said it was peace of mind, were you being sarcastic?
District of Columbia used to have no insurance but that changed in the Eighties or Nineties, I think.

 

[Ahlevah]

You did, you said it was peace of mind, were you being sarcastic?

No, what I meant was peace of mind is not worrying about other drivers, a high percentage of whom are uninsured, wrecking my car because it isn’t worth much. I was really disgusted the first time a woman not paying attention or texting rear-ended me while I was sitting at a stoplight. That was when the car was still relatively new.

District of Columbia used to have no insurance but that changed in the Eighties or Nineties, I think.

The state has an insurance requirement, but it’s only enforced if you’re asked to show proof of insurance by law enforcement, say, if you’re in an accident or issued a traffic citation.

 

[Grogu]

Okay, and I’m not faulting you for that at all. Where I’m really having issues is with the people who rolled old, underwater auto loans into new ones.

Yeah, that’s not me.

I’m not saying use a lease to get into a car you otherwise could not afford. But they do tend to make sense for people who like luxury cars and want to get into a new one every few years, because those cars lose so much value quickly. A Mercedes C- or S-Class depreciates about 50% after five years. But whether to lease or buy depends on personal preference, driving habits, and the particular terms of the contract.

People in the market for new Mercedes can do as they please when it comes to financing or leasing. They’ve got the means to lease a new model every two or three years without a care. It’s the massive amount of Tahoes, Yukons, Suburbans, etc., driven by school moms with their kids in the back where you just know they are leased. $75,000.00 to $100,000.00 or more? Yeah, they aren’t straight up buying those or financing them on a four year retail note. And little do they know, but individuals leasing who have no capability to write of the lease payments as an operating expense are paying the rate of return (lease rate rarely if ever disclosed) on the entire cost of the vehicle for the lease term. How about paying 7.5% for three years on an $80,000.00 lease?

Haha! Touché! But happiness itself is nothing more than a state of mind. Experiences are worth more than things to me at this point. Besides, you can’t take it with you.

I’m doing the trips and enjoying my state of mind when getting behind the wheel of whatever I’m driving. I also had Camaros and Mustangs for years, purchased new. Toys that were really entertaining to drive and be seen in. When random people pay you compliments on your ride, that’s an extra kick.

I suppose there’s always a first time, but in twenty years that Toyota hasn’t left me stranded yet. And I’m not sure I’d be any happier having my new(er) Chevy or Ford break down and leave me stranded hundreds of miles away from home but with the presumed comfort of knowing that the thing is covered under warranty. <edited for character limit>

Never, ever had one of my purchased new vehicles leave me stranded, even after the warranty period. I fly and rent, too, when applicable. A few years ago, I got upgraded to a Land Rover on Maui, when I wouldn’t take their crappy Chrysler 300 (not your 1965 model 300 @Checkerboard Strangler). We then proceeded to take it on The Road to Hana.

Because liability insurance is cheap. Collision is not. Modern cars have a lot of expensive parts like LiDAR sensors to replace, and people are crashing more than they used to. Also, I don’t have to bother with extended warranties or gap coverage either. Like I said, if it breaks down and ends up costing more to fix it than it’s worth, I’ll just junk it or sell it as is and get another one.

I know what I can do behind the wheel. It’s the other guy who’s the wildcard in the equation. It always is. I want my vehicle replaced (I have that specific rider on my policy) if some uninsured jack wagon decides to play bumper cars with my vehicle. At 63, with the same company and agent for 30 years, they’ve got enough history on me to keep my rates low. Again, I can afford it.

Peace of mind for me is driving in South Mississippi, where 25% of drivers have no auto insurances, and not worrying about someone creaming my 20-year-old, twice-wrecked jalopy. <edited for character limit>

See above.

Then there are the parking lot morons who always want to bang the side of the car with their doors, or back into its bumper. Rocks and windshields are another problem. New windshields often have expensive sensors that need to be programmed. I don’t have that concern with windshields or any other crap that has to be programmed by a mechanic with an expensive scan tool. In short, I don’t worry about any of that. I don’t think I’d feel the same way if I had a typical new car, which sells today for about $48,000. That’s still real money to someone who worked most of his life for tips.

Nah, you can get a pretty nice new vehicle for around $30,000.00 or so if you put a little effort into it. My buddy just got a loaded Honda CR-V Hybrid Sport-L for $39,000.00. My Silverado doesn’t have a mark on it. My Impala was immaculate, as were my Mustangs. I never parked them in tight spots. As with my insurance comments, it’s the other guy to look out for.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

A few years ago, I got upgraded to a Land Rover on Maui, when I wouldn’t take their crappy Chrysler 300 (not your 1965 model 300 @Checkerboard Strangler).

The modern 300's began accumulating an extraordinary amount of problem reports between 2014 and 2022 and then the company changed hands under Stellantis, who began cutting corners.
The specific problem with the 5.7L Hemi V8 was the infamous Hemi ticking noise, which more often than not ends up being a minor exhaust leak caused by improperly manufactured exhaust manifolds. My nephew's HEMI car has the tick, he ignores it.



What do you specifically call crappy about the 300, ASIDE FROM an individual anecdote?
I left out personal anecdotes because it's entirely possible to pull up anecdotal horror stories about literally every consumer product ever made.

I dated a girl who had a Land Rover many years ago so don't get me started on "exotic" British cars LOL.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Actually, I’m on my knees praying for fewer stupid people who think they’re happier buying cars they can’t afford, as well as the even stupider people who give them the money.



There were several references in Deadpool and Wolverine to a particular Honda Odyssey minivan. After the movie I made a comment to my son about how it would be cool to find one and put a lowering kit on it and hotrod it. I think I’d add a nice sound system with huge subwoofers as well.

**Warning: Adult Language!**

It is claimed that the Odyssey is fast however I seem to have no trouble wasting them in a handicap equipped Pacifica, which by the way weighs almost a thousand pounds more than the stock version thanks to the ramp.

 

[Visbek]

When you go to your FRED charts, you’re only getting data that comes from commercial banks.

Nothing I linked "comes from commercial banks."

Chart #1 is from BLS research and surveys, not banks.

Chart #2 is employment data. Why in the world would you think that's coming from commercial banks?

Swing and a miss.

YouTube channels operated by auto dealers like David “Lucky” Lopez and others is insightful.

Yes, car dealers are well known for being honest and forthright. Especially used car dealers.

If you believe that, then I've got a bridge for sale. Excellent views of both Brooklyn AND Manhattan!

I’m still trying to find a channel run by an auto dealer, real estate agent, or mortgage broker who will tell me how wonderful everything is, but I can’t find one.

Yes, clearly we should fire everyone at the BLS, and hire you to do economic analysis and forecasts, based on... your expertise in watching YouTube.

 

[Ahlevah]

Never, ever had one of my purchased new vehicles leave me stranded, even after the warranty period.

You must have never owned a Volkswagen.

I know what I can do behind the wheel. It’s the other guy who’s the wildcard in the equation. It always is. I want my vehicle replaced (I have that specific rider on my policy) if some uninsured jack wagon decides to play bumper cars with my vehicle. At 63, with the same company and agent for 30 years, they’ve got enough history on me to keep my rates low. Again, I can afford it.

Precisely. Doesn’t matter how safe I’ve been. (I’ve never had an at-fault accident.) Twice I’ve been rear-ended just sitting at a stoplight. Then there was the little old lady who pulled out as I was driving past her and creamed me on the side, and the idiot at Walmart who backed into me while I was in the store. Unless you park in a far corner of the lot every time, they’ll figure out at way to hit you. So much for “peace of mind.” Now I just try to get the closest spot to the front door.

And if you have a clause that requires them to replace the vehicle, that isn’t free. Point being my auto insurance costs me less than $1,000 per year for two vehicles.

Nah, you can get a pretty nice new vehicle for around $30,000.00 or so if you put a little effort into it. My buddy just got a loaded Honda CR-V Hybrid Sport-L for $39,000.00. My Silverado doesn’t have a mark on it. My Impala was immaculate, as were my Mustangs. I never parked them in tight spots. As with my insurance comments, it’s the other guy to look out for.

My state rapes us on car tags. I’d be taking abuse on that $39,000 through a ten-year depreciation cycle, plus the cost of insuring it. I still might do it. The jury’s still out on that.

For all of the abuse it’s taken, this 20-year-old Toyota still looks pretty spiffy. I’ve always taken good care of it, putting four quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic and a Toyota OEM filter and pan washer on it every 5,000 miles. Yeah, I do it myself, because that way I know it was actually done correctly with the specified oil. You’d be amazed how many technicians could screw up an oil change. What kind of moron uses an impact wrench to tighten an oil drain plug? Keeping this thing on the road has become a game with me. The engine on it is so basic and easy to work on. I know it like the back of my hand. And it’s still a child, with less than 200,000 mikes in it. People routinely get 400,000 to 500,000 miles out of these motors with no issues.

It’s great that you haven’t had any problems with your truck, but if you visit owners’ forums on these things they’re filled with people cursing the day they ever bought one. Oil consumption, engine lifter failure, cylinder heads, timing chains—they’ve all got a gripe. I just drive. My neighbor recently had a cylinder go out on his newer Silverado. Fortunately, he was able to get it covered under warranty. So if you intend to keep yours for nine or ten years and want peace of mind you should consider spending thousands of dollars on an extended warranty.

Truth be told, Toyotas and Hondas can give you hundreds of thousands of miles of trouble-free service long after the equivalent Detroit or European product has been sent to the scrapheap. That 2.0 TSI engine in my Volkswagen, for example, is a nightmare. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

But a point I’ve tried to emphasize in this thread is a lot of people would be much better off financially if they didn’t invest so much money in cars—on depreciation, finance fees and interest payments, expensive parts and repairs, extended warranties, taxes, insurance…. The list goes on. Maybe you can afford to do that, but a lot of people can’t. Sending yourself into penury, destroyed credit, and the hands of debt collectors for “peace of mind” doesn’t sound like a good plan to me.

 

[Ahlevah]

Nothing I linked "comes from commercial banks."

Chart #1 is from BLS research and surveys, not banks.

Is this the same BLS that spent most of last year revising down stats from its BS surveys and then revised down year-on-year stats another 818,000 jobs? Good job! Keep up the good work!

Yes, clearly we should fire everyone at the BLS, and hire you to do economic analysis and forecasts, based on... your expertise in watching YouTube.

Clearly, because I and my YouTube guys couldn’t do any worse than you and the government! Economy’s “booming!”

 

[Visbek]

Is this the same BLS that spent most of last year revising down stats from its BS surveys and then revised down year-on-year stats another 818,000 jobs?

 

[Grogu]

You must have never owned a Volkswagen.

Nope. Too unreliable.

Precisely. Doesn’t matter how safe I’ve been. (I’ve never had an at-fault accident.) Twice I’ve been rear-ended just sitting at a stoplight. Then there was the little old lady who pulled out as I was driving past her and creamed me on the side, and the idiot at Walmart who backed into me while I was in the store. Unless you park in a far corner of the lot every time, they’ll figure out at way to hit you. So much for “peace of mind.” Now I just try to get the closest spot to the front door.

And if you have a clause that requires them to replace the vehicle, that isn’t free. Point being my auto insurance costs me less than $1,000 per year for two vehicles.

Hence me saying, “I can afford it.” I like peace of mind, as well.

My state rapes us on car tags. I’d be taking abuse on that $39,000 through a ten-year depreciation cycle, plus the cost of insuring it. I still might do it. The jury’s still out on that.

I pay $450.00 per year on my truck, $360.00 on the Equinox. But I no longer pay state income tax on my retirement income. So there’s that.

For all of the abuse it’s taken, this 20-year-old Toyota still looks pretty spiffy. I’ve always taken good care of it, putting four quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic and a Toyota OEM filter and pan washer on it every 5,000 miles. Yeah, I do it myself, because that way I know it was actually done correctly with the specified oil. You’d be amazed how many technicians could screw up an oil change. What kind of moron uses an impact wrench to tighten an oil drain plug? Keeping this thing on the road has become a game with me. The engine on it is so basic and easy to work on. I know it like the back of my hand. And it’s still a child, with less than 200,000 mikes in it. People routinely get 400,000 to 500,000 miles out of these motors with no issues.

I used to do my own oil changes and brake jobs. Not anymore. Back to the dealership Quick Lube lanes. They keep the records, so if something isn’t right, I’m not left holding the bag.

The Toyota may still look good, but when you rack up those kind of miles, everything else rattles loose. Do you need to turn up the radio when you drive to drown out the rattles?

It’s great that you haven’t had any problems with your truck, but if you visit owners’ forums on these things they’re filled with people cursing the day they ever bought one. Oil consumption, engine lifter failure, cylinder heads, timing chains—they’ve all got a gripe. I just drive. My neighbor recently had a cylinder go out on his newer Silverado. Fortunately, he was able to get it covered under warranty. So if you intend to keep yours for nine or ten years and want peace of mind you should consider spending thousands of dollars on an extended warranty.

I do my own extensive research before buying, and I’m well aware of any issues. And there are lots of amateur mechanics on the internet who think they know what they’re talking about, when they don’t. Lots of sour grapes. Think any of those 100,000 Tundra owners thought they’d be getting a brand new engine when they purchased their trucks?

Truth be told, Toyotas and Hondas can give you hundreds of thousands of miles of trouble-free service long after the equivalent Detroit or European product has been sent to the scrapheap. That 2.0 TSI engine in my Volkswagen, for example, is a nightmare. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

But a point I’ve tried to emphasize in this thread is a lot of people would be much better off financially if they didn’t invest so much money in cars—on depreciation, finance fees and interest payments, expensive parts and repairs, extended warranties, taxes, insurance…. The list goes on. Maybe you can afford to do that, but a lot of people can’t. Sending yourself into penury, destroyed credit, and the hands of debt collectors for “peace of mind” doesn’t sound like a good plan to me.

You either want to get somewhere safe and sound in comfort without worry, or you continually lose your mind about what it’s costing you. Going from point A to B is a basic part of American life- it’s not optional. I went through my share of used cars in my life, keeping them running right. My first car was a 1969 Chrysler Newport I bought for $200.00. I won’t go back to worrying about what will go wrong next, and whether I’ll get to my destination or not. I’m too old for those shenanigans, plus I have the disposable income to cover my driving lifestyle. My mortgage is paid in full.

 

[Ahlevah]

The Toyota may still look good, but when you rack up those kind of miles, everything else rattles loose. Do you need to turn up the radio when you drive to drown out the rattles?

Not at all. The car is still tight.

I do my own extensive research before buying, and I’m well aware of any issues. And there are lots of amateur mechanics on the internet who think they know what they’re talking about, when they don’t. Lots of sour grapes. Think any of those 100,000 Tundra owners thought they’d be getting a brand new engine when they purchased their trucks?

They were new. They just came with extra metal shavings.

Still, I’d put Toyota’s rep against any Big Three Detroit or European automaker. There’s a reason these vehicles tend to hold their resale value over other makes.

You either want to get somewhere safe and sound in comfort without worry, or you continually lose your mind about what it’s costing you. Going from point A to B is a basic part of American life- it’s not optional. I went through my share of used cars in my life, keeping them running right. My first car was a 1969 Chrysler Newport I bought for $200.00. I won’t go back to worrying about what will go wrong next, and whether I’ll get to my destination or not. I’m too old for those shenanigans, plus I have the disposable income to cover my driving lifestyle. My mortgage is paid in full.

Honestly, I don’t lose my mind over cost, and I don’t worry about the car breaking down. It has a naturally-aspirated 4-cylinder engine. It uses a drive chain, not a belt. It has an actual transmission with gears, and a mechanical water pump. There really isn’t much that can go wrong with it as long as you perform basic maintenance, which in itself isn’t much—filters and fluids.

Some of these modern cars, with their twin turbos, CVT transmissions, dual fuel injection, dynamic and active fuel management, LiDAR sensors, radar sensors for adaptive cruise control, climate control sensors, ECMs that do everything up to reading you the entire text of Homer’s Iliad—are just too expensive for their own good. Some of the scan tools required to reprogram these sensors and ECMs are in the tens of thousands of dollars. In some cases you can’t even change the battery without going to a dealer to get the new one programmed along with the ECM and/or ADAS. If the vehicle is out of warranty, and unless you’ve spent thousands of dollars on an extended one, you’re at their mercy for not only the cost of the parts but shop rates up to $200 per hour. No thanks. These added costs are a major reason many people have held onto their vehicles longer to the point that we have the oldest car fleet in our history. I think a lot of these vehicles will ultimately be replaced by Chinese EVs, because that’s what people will be able to afford.