Can you debate gun control using only logical arguments...

[RF667799]

Absurdist reasoning.
You cannot acknowledge the fundamental relationship between firearms and firearm violence because it would undermine your entire world view.
Firearms are necessary for firearm violence.

How many times do you have to be reassured that is true? Nobody has argued differently.

Firearm access facilitates use of firearms
Firearm use increases as access increases.

Not necessarily. You continually try to make universally true claims out of things that aren't universally true.

Firearms use increases the likelihood death and injury.

Accidental death or injury? Likely true. Is it a significant risk? No.

Firearms are a risk factor for death and injury.

See above.

 

[jaeger19]

Absurdist reasoning.

You’ve tried , you’ve failed. We all know.

You cannot acknowledge the fundamental relationship between firearms and firearm violence because it would undermine your entire world view.

The only fundamental relationship is that to do violence with a firearm , there has to be a firearm.
Wishkabibble.

Firearms are necessary for firearm violence.

See above dude.

Firearm access facilitates use of firearms

Sure

Firearm use increases as access increases.

Not necessarily .

Firearms use increases the likelihood death and injury.

Not necessarily

Firearms are a risk factor for death and injury.

Not necessarily.

 

[Spock]

You’ve tried , you’ve failed. We all know.

The only fundamental relationship is that to do violence with a firearm , there has to be a firearm.
Wishkabibble.

See above dude.

Sure

Not necessarily .


Not necessarily

Not necessarily.

The trend is clear. Firearm access facilitates homicide, suicide and accidental death-- that is the simple truth.
Whatever occasional exceptions you may want to present do not change the overall impact of firearms on society.
All forces that shape outcome in public health do not have universal and absolute predictability and your attempts to dismiss the consequences of the firearm overburden in American society is unethical for someone who claims to be involved with healthcare.

Firearms access endangers children and adults. Violent crime is facilitated with firearms and, since means matter, suicide efforts are more likely to be fatal when a firearm is used.

These are the facts that shape the firearm problem in America and have resulted in the US exceptional firearm death and injury rate.
Your dissembling, hyperbole, deflection, avoidance and straw man arguments are reprehensible and shameful.

 

[rahl]

The trend is clear. Firearm access facilitates homicide, suicide and accidental death-- that is the simple truth.

No they don’t.

Whatever occasional exceptions you may want to present do not change the overall impact of firearms on society.
All forces that shape outcome in public health do not have universal and absolute predictability and your attempts to dismiss the consequences of the firearm overburden in American society is unethical for someone who claims to be involved with healthcare.

Firearms access endangers children and adults. Violent crime is facilitated with firearms and, since means matter, suicide efforts are more likely to be fatal when a firearm is used.

These are the facts that shape the firearm problem in America and have resulted in the US exceptional firearm death and injury rate.
Your dissembling, hyperbole, deflection, avoidance and straw man arguments are reprehensible and shameful.

 

[CLAX1911]

The trend is clear. Firearm access facilitates homicide, suicide and accidental death-- that is the simple truth.

I'm not suicidal and I'm careful so no.

Whatever occasional exceptions you may want to present do not change the overall impact of firearms on society.
All forces that shape outcome in public health do not have universal and absolute predictability and your attempts to dismiss the consequences of the firearm overburden in American society is unethical for someone who claims to be involved with healthcare.

Americans choose not to have gun control

Firearms access endangers children and adults. Violent crime is facilitated with firearms and, since means matter, suicide efforts are more likely to be fatal when a firearm is used.

Firearms are weapons, yes.

These are the facts that shape the firearm problem in America and have resulted in the US exceptional firearm death and injury rate.

There's not a problem with firearms there's a problem with criminals and suicide.

Your dissembling, hyperbole, deflection, avoidance and straw man arguments are reprehensible and shameful.

I don't think you know what any of these words mean.

 

[jaeger19]

The trend is clear. Firearm access facilitates homicide, suicide and accidental death-- that is the simple truth.

Facilitates it but does not cause it. So do sticks , ropes , knives , and rocks.
That’s simple fact.

Whatever occasional exceptions you may want to present do not change the overall impact of firearms on society.

The impact on society is positive. That’s true.

All forces that shape outcome in public health do not have universal and absolute predictability

Yet you claim they do. You are the one that constantly claims that firearms increases overall risk of death. Regardless of any intent , training experience , etc of the person wielding the firearm.

and your attempts to dismiss the consequences of the firearm overburden in American society is unethical for someone who claims to be involved with healthcare.

Ha. You have no moral high ground.
My position is to use resources you would waste on CAUSES of violence and suicide. Preventing death and injury regardless of tool used.
Your position is based on a pure bias that 12 of every thirteen gun owners is irresponsible , suicidal or criminal.
Your position is preposterous. And because of that you want to waste valuable resources disarming people who are. It a threat , rather than use those resources to prevent overall death and injury.
What do you say to the man whose son has taken his life by hanging?
“Aren’t you glad you glad we spent billions on gun buybacks and enforcing gun bans instead of mental health access? “

Firearms access endangers children and adults.

Not necessarily.

Violent crime is facilitated with firearms and, since means matter, suicide efforts are more likely to be fatal when a firearm is used.

On suicide, that’s because suicide completers are more likley to choose a more lethal means. As shone by s. Korea. Without firearms suicide completers simply choose another deadly method.
Face facts dude. Disarming the non suicidal guy in the next county does nothing to prevent the suicide of the suicidal man here .
Improving mental health access and treatment does.

These are the facts that shape the firearm problem in America and have resulted in the US exceptional firearm death and injury rate.

Which is a meaningless statistic . You cannot and will not accept this fact that your premise is built upon a lie. That lie is that firearms increases overall violence is a valid measure of safety. It’s not.
It’s also built on the lie that firearms do not have any positive uses and that is also a lie.

Your dissembling, hyperbole, deflection, avoidance and straw man arguments are reprehensible and shameful.

Yeah no.
You are the one that should be ashamed of yourself . You’ve had to lie, deflect avoid , strawman and make personal remarks.
Basically you are projecting your behavior onto others.

 

[Spock]

Facilitates it but does not cause it. So do sticks , ropes , knives , and rocks.
That’s simple fact.

The impact on society is positive. That’s true.

Yet you claim they do. You are the one that constantly claims that firearms increases overall risk of death. Regardless of any intent , training experience , etc of the person wielding the firearm.


Ha. You have no moral high ground.
My position is to use resources you would waste on CAUSES of violence and suicide. Preventing death and injury regardless of tool used.
Your position is based on a pure bias that 12 of every thirteen gun owners is irresponsible , suicidal or criminal.
Your position is preposterous. And because of that you want to waste valuable resources disarming people who are. It a threat , rather than use those resources to prevent overall death and injury.
What do you say to the man whose son has taken his life by hanging?
“Aren’t you glad you glad we spent billions on gun buybacks and enforcing gun bans instead of mental health access? “


Not necessarily.

On suicide, that’s because suicide completers are more likley to choose a more lethal means. As shone by s. Korea. Without firearms suicide completers simply choose another deadly method.
Face facts dude. Disarming the non suicidal guy in the next county does nothing to prevent the suicide of the suicidal man here .
Improving mental health access and treatment does.

Apparently it is so important to your that convenient access to firearms by the entire population that you cannot find any space in your firearm bigotry for better regulation and reduction in firearm prevalence.

Which is a meaningless statistic . You cannot and will not accept this fact that your premise is built upon a lie. That lie is that firearms increases overall violence is a valid measure of safety. It’s not.
It’s also built on the lie that firearms do not have any positive uses and that is also a lie.

There is no lie in 100,000 yearly casualties and a firearm violence rate many times greater than equivalent countries.
The lie is your denial that these lives lost and changed are insignificant in the grand scheme of firearm promotion.

Yeah no.
You are the one that should be ashamed of yourself . You’ve had to lie, deflect avoid , strawman and make personal remarks.
Basically you are projecting your behavior onto others.

My conscience is clear. I have not been promoting policies and philosophies that will only result in more death and injury among children and adults.

 

[CLAX1911]

Apparently it is so important to your that convenient access to firearms by the entire population that you cannot find any space in your firearm bigotry for better regulation and reduction in firearm prevalence.

Indeed. Is the government has too much control over as is.

There is no lie in 100,000 yearly casualties and a firearm violence rate many times greater than equivalent countries.

Go live in those other countries

The lie is your denial that these lives lost and changed are insignificant in the grand scheme of firearm promotion.

Deal with it.

My conscience is clear. I have not been promoting policies and philosophies that will only result in more death and injury among children and adults.

My conscience is clear too advocating for rights is not advocating for murder. Your gaslighting failed.

 

[RF667799]

Apparently it is so important to your that convenient access to firearms by the entire population that you cannot find any space in your firearm bigotry for better regulation and reduction in firearm prevalence.

Little less lettuce.

There is no lie in 100,000 yearly casualties and a firearm violence rate many times greater than equivalent countries.
The lie is your denial that these lives lost and changed are insignificant in the grand scheme of firearm promotion.

Not insignificant except statistically. They just don't outweigh the benefits.

My conscience is clear. I have not been promoting policies and philosophies that will only result in more death and injury among children and adults.

Begs the question.

 

[jaeger19]

Apparently it is so important to your that convenient access to firearms by the entire population that you cannot find any space in your firearm bigotry for better regulation and reduction in firearm prevalence.

There is no lie in 100,000 yearly casualties and a firearm violence rate many times greater than equivalent countries.
The lie is your denial that these lives lost and changed are insignificant in the grand scheme of firearm promotion.

My conscience is clear. I have not been promoting policies and philosophies that will only result in more death and injury among children and adults.

Apparently it is so important to your that convenient access to firearms by the entire population that you cannot find any space in your firearm bigotry for better regulation and reduction in firearm prevalence.

Nope . Gun banners gotta lie.
I simply have no patience for useless regulation whose only purpose is to disarm people who are no threat to themselves or others simply because of the irrational fear s of gun banners.
Cripes man , you can’t even DEFINE gun prevalence.lmao.

I have however proposed effective firearm regulation that would reduce the access of firearms to criminals and would reduce accidents but you summarily rejected them.
1. Rather than have to maintain and check a database that includes every single American citizen , it would more effective to simply identify the exceedingly small population of people prohibited from firearms. Simply designate such people by marking their drivers license or state id. “ ineligible for firearms”
Then any person who was selling a firearm , or lending one , etc could simply ask to see the persons drivers licenses license.
Easy peasey.
2. I’ve proposed mandatory firearm safety education in public schools starting in elementary school and proceeding forward through high school. This would have course reduce accidents tremendously as people would all benefit from training in firearm safety and use over a period of years in an organized program rather than the gun banners proposal that a one or two day firearm course is sufficient.

You of course rejected both proposals despite both having supporting science and logic behind them.

There is no lie in 100,000 yearly casualties and a firearm violence rate many times greater than equivalent countries.

Well yes there is . It’s the gun banners lie in assuming that these causalities would not still happen as people who contemplating suicide simply switch to another deadly tool( as s. Koreans etc do)
Or that murderers won’t simply switch to another deadly method.

I on the other hand propose solutions that will reduce suicide and violencecehayever the tool used.

The lie is your denial that these lives lost and changed are insignificant in the grand scheme of firearm promotion.

No. unlike you, I am concerned with ALL lives lost . Not just those who’ve died from someone using a specific tool.

Thus I’ve proposed that instead of wasting valuable resources on useless regulation that will do nothing , we should focus on things like mental health and education, relieving poverty and racial inequity . Things that are scientifically proven to reduce both suicide and violence.

Rec
My conscience is clear. I have not been promoting policies and philosophies that will only result in more death and injury among children and adults.

See above. Because oh yes you have. It’s why when a mass shooting happens yet again from someone with a mental health issue , you gun banners turn the whole conversation away from preventing the person the person from committing the shooting to promoting background checks that the shooter already passed!!!
Frankly you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Spock]

Nope . Gun banners gotta lie.
I simply have no patience for useless regulation whose only purpose is to disarm people who are no threat to themselves or others simply because of the irrational fear s of gun banners.
Cripes man , you can’t even DEFINE gun prevalence.lmao.

I have however proposed effective firearm regulation that would reduce the access of firearms to criminals and would reduce accidents but you summarily rejected them.
1. Rather than have to maintain and check a database that includes every single American citizen , it would more effective to simply identify the exceedingly small population of people prohibited from firearms. Simply designate such people by marking their drivers license or state id. “ ineligible for firearms”
Then any person who was selling a firearm , or lending one , etc could simply ask to see the persons drivers licenses license.
Easy peasey.
2. I’ve proposed mandatory firearm safety education in public schools starting in elementary school and proceeding forward through high school. This would have course reduce accidents tremendously as people would all benefit from training in firearm safety and use over a period of years in an organized program rather than the gun banners proposal that a one or two day firearm course is sufficient.

You of course rejected both proposals despite both having supporting science and logic behind them.


Well yes there is . It’s the gun banners lie in assuming that these causalities would not still happen as people who contemplating suicide simply switch to another deadly tool( as s. Koreans etc do)
Or that murderers won’t simply switch to another deadly method.

I on the other hand propose solutions that will reduce suicide and violencecehayever the tool used.


No. unlike you, I am concerned with ALL lives lost . Not just those who’ve died from someone using a specific tool.

Thus I’ve proposed that instead of wasting valuable resources on useless regulation that will do nothing , we should focus on things like mental health and education, relieving poverty and racial inequity . Things that are scientifically proven to reduce both suicide and violence.

See above. Because oh yes you have. It’s why when a mass shooting happens yet again from someone with a mental health issue , you gun banners turn the whole conversation away from preventing the person the person from committing the shooting to promoting background checks that the shooter already passed!!!
Frankly you should be ashamed of yourself.

Fundamentally, you are demanding perfection in elimination of suicide or crime by workaround measures that avoid the real problem--
too many easily and unnecessarily available firearms.

Mandated firearms education falls into the category of learning to make poisons and explosives by a group of individuals (teenagers) who are known for frontal lobe immaturity-- poor judgment and great impulsivity.

If you were concerned with ALL lives, you would recognize that firearm access is a simple and effective issue to address. However, the real issue is that, as a gun fanatic, you are unwilling to accept the reality of the damaging firearm prevalence. Crime, homicide and suicide do not happen due to lack of education about firearms. Accidental injury can be reduced by simple and limited instruction, not the promotion-under-the-guise-of-education approach that is firearms training in schools.
Shameful cupidity by you.

 

[jaeger19]

Fundamentally, you are demanding perfection in elimination of suicide or crime by workaround measures that avoid the real problem--

too many easily and unnecessarily available firearms.

Yeah sorry. Logically the real problem is too many people who have suicidal ideation , who could have gotten treatment and never become suicidal.
If getting rid of guns was the answer to preventing suicide?
N. Korea would have one of the lowest rates in the world. Not the one of the highest.
You simply cannot get around the facts.

Mandated firearms education falls into the category of learning to make poisons and explosives by a group of individuals (teenagers) who are known for frontal lobe immaturity-- poor judgment and great impulsivity.

Interesting. So you are against Hunters education then?
Please explain.
Let’s delve into this.
Currently millions of children learn to hunt and learn firearm safety at ages of 9 and 10.
and because of that. Nothing happens.

But let’s hear your thoughts on when children should learn firearm safety before hunting .

If you were concerned with ALL lives, you would recognize that firearm access is a simple and effective issue to address.

No. Thats ludicrous. People simply switch to other deadly methods as in s. Korea suicides and the uk which boasts a higher murder rate than Germany , or New Zealand that have far more guns.

However, the real issue is that, as a gun fanatic, you are unwilling to accept the reality of the damaging firearm prevalence.

Silly goose. Define that prevalence exactly and cite what the actual us prevalence is. Then we can talk.
Lmao.

Crime, homicide and suicide do not happen due to lack of education about firearms.

But accidents do. Apparently you now don’t care about accidents with firearms . What about” little jimmy shooting out his brothers eye??”
You are so laughable.

Accidental injury can be reduced by simple and limited instruction, not the promotion-under-the-guise-of-education approach that is firearms training in schools.
Shameful cupidity by you.

Gun banners gotta lie.
I refer you to your post #1623
And I quote :
Spock: “3. firearms are inherently dangerous and require special skill to operate to decrease risk”

“ special skills”
To now “ simple and limited instruction”
Lmao.

Why can’t you debate honestly.
Lmao.
So sad.

 

[Spock]

Yeah sorry. Logically the real problem is too many people who have suicidal ideation , who could have gotten treatment and never become suicidal.
If getting rid of guns was the answer to preventing suicide?
N. Korea would have one of the lowest rates in the world. Not the one of the highest.

No one knows the suicide rate in North Korea with verifiable accuracy.

You simply cannot get around the facts.

The facts are that similar countries with fewer firearms and better regulation have less firearm violence. Not a complicated concept.

Interesting. So you are against Hunters education then?
Please explain.
Let’s delve into this.
Currently millions of children learn to hunt and learn firearm safety at ages of 9 and 10.
and because of that. Nothing happens.

You promote mandatory school firearm training with hunter education? Get your statements straight.

But let’s hear your thoughts on when children should learn firearm safety before hunting .

No. Thats ludicrous. People simply switch to other deadly methods as in s. Korea suicides and the uk which boasts a higher murder rate than Germany , or New Zealand that have far more guns.

Never proven. If suicide is pre-destined, then your "mental health treatment" arguments are false.

Silly goose. Define that prevalence exactly and cite what the actual us prevalence is. Then we can talk.
Lmao.

But accidents do. Apparently you now don’t care about accidents with firearms . What about” little jimmy shooting out his brothers eye??”
You are so laughable.

Gun banners gotta lie.
I refer you to your post #1623
And I quote :
Spock: “3. firearms are inherently dangerous and require special skill to operate to decrease risk”

“ special skills”
To now “ simple and limited instruction”
Lmao.

Why can’t you debate honestly.
Lmao.
So sad.

Bloviating and useless nonsensical statements.
Provide peer-reviewed studies for your claims, not your pseudo-curated list of cherry-picked propaganda.

 

[CLAX1911]

Fundamentally, you are demanding perfection in elimination of suicide or crime by workaround measures that avoid the real problem--
too many easily and unnecessarily available firearms.

If you're going to disarm me you need to absolutely be perfect.

Mandated firearms education falls into the category of learning to make poisons and explosives by a group of individuals (teenagers) who are known for frontal lobe immaturity-- poor judgment and great impulsivity.

You only object to knowledge because you're afraid people will find out how full of it you are.

If you were concerned with ALL lives, you would recognize that firearm access is a simple and effective issue to address.

If you're going to disarm me you must be perfect first.

However, the real issue is that, as a gun fanatic, you are unwilling to accept the reality of the damaging firearm prevalence.

It's meant to be damaging that's the selling feature it's a weapon.

Crime, homicide and suicide do not happen due to lack of education about firearms.

Yeah they happen because of a failure of law and unless you can make the law absolutely perfect you can't disarm it without taking away all of my rights

Accidental injury can be reduced by simple and limited instruction, not the promotion-under-the-guise-of-education approach that is firearms training in schools.
Shameful cupidity by you.

The only reason you oppose knowledge is because people will realize how full of it you are.

 

[jaeger19]

No one knows the suicide rate in North Korea with verifiable accuracy.

South Korea .

The facts are that similar countries with fewer firearms and better regulation have less firearm violence. Not a complicated concept.

Not only “ not complicated”. But ridiculous as well as “ firearm violence” as you well know is and invalid statistic.

You promote mandatory school firearm training with hunter education? Get your statements straight.

Well yeah I’d promote hunters education along with mandatory school training .

Never proven. If suicide is pre-destined, then your "mental health treatment" arguments are false.

When you make such statements it’s hard to know whether you are simply being obtuse or whether you are truly that ignorant.

Hopefully , you realize that mental health issues with suicidal intent / ideation is the cause of suicide.
Not “ access to ropes , or firearms or drugs”
Mental health treatment either prevents a person from developing suicidal intent and or it stops the suicidal intent of the person . Thus preventing suicide and saving lives.
Is this really a hard concept for you to understand?

Bloviating and useless nonsensical statements.
Provide peer-reviewed studies for your claims, not your pseudo-curated list of cherry-picked propaganda.

Oh I’ve provided many. Just recently when you claimed that the prevalence of having sex can’t be measured.
Lmao.

But lest continue with your latest flub. Why divert?

I refer you to your post #1623
And I quote :
Spock: “3. firearms are inherently dangerous and require special skill to operate to decrease risk”

“ special skills”
To now “ simple and limited instruction”
Lmao.

Which is it Spock? Hmmmm

 

[Spock]

South Korea .

Not only “ not complicated”. But ridiculous as well as “ firearm violence” as you well know is and invalid statistic.

Firearm violence is a well-establish public health metric. You seem to be determined not to understand it.

Well yeah I’d promote hunters education along with mandatory school training .

That would be a waste of precious educational opportunity better spent on other subjects.

When you make such statements it’s hard to know whether you are simply being obtuse or whether you are truly that ignorant.

Hopefully , you realize that mental health issues with suicidal intent / ideation is the cause of suicide.

You deny that access to means is irrelevant to suicide completion when, in fact, access to firearms increases suicide completion.
Proven.

Not “ access to ropes , or firearms or drugs”
Mental health treatment either prevents a person from developing suicidal intent and or it stops the suicidal intent of the person . Thus preventing suicide and saving lives.

Mental health services, while important, are unrealistic solutions to suicide and your faux concern for unlikely mental health access is merely a ruse to avoid taking a much more effective immediate action-- reducing means.

Is this really a hard concept for you to understand?



Oh I’ve provided many. Just recently when you claimed that the prevalence of having sex can’t be measured.
Lmao.

and you quote a study that depended upon the most unreliable source of information- historical survey questionnaire. And, in the fashion of someone who know nothing about data collection you seem to think that accurately demonstrates prevalence.

But lest continue with your latest flub. Why divert?

I refer you to your post #1623
And I quote :
Spock: “3. firearms are inherently dangerous and require special skill to operate to decrease risk”

“ special skills”
To now “ simple and limited instruction”
Lmao.

Which is it Spock? Hmmmm

Both. Accuracy, care and continued operation requires a developed skill and the simple discharge of a weapon is easy.
In your world, simplistic thinking rules; in the real world, problems are complex.

 

[RF667799]

Firearm violence is a well-establish public health metric. You seem to be determined not to understand it.

That would be a waste of precious educational opportunity better spent on other subjects.

You deny that access to means is irrelevant to suicide completion when, in fact, access to firearms increases suicide completion.
Proven.

Mental health services, while important, are unrealistic solutions to suicide and your faux concern for unlikely mental health access is merely a ruse to avoid taking a much more effective immediate action-- reducing means.

"Important but unrealistic solutions"

 

[jaeger19]

Firearm violence is a well-establish public health metric. You seem to be determined not to understand it.

Great.
Let’s test its usefulness as a public safety metric.
One community has 100 suicides per 100000 people and all suicides are by means other than a firearm
A similar community has 3 suicides per 10000 and all suicides are by firearm .
Which community has the larger problem with suicide?

One community has 100 murders per 100000 none of the involve a firearm
A similar community has 2 murders per 100000 people but both done with a firearm?
Which community has a larger problem with violence?

These questions aren’t meant to be rhetorical.
However we all know that you gun banners can’t be honest and so you will never answer them.
You will never ever have any credibility in this debate if you continue to use “ gun violence” as a metric .

That would be a waste of precious educational opportunity better spent on other subjects.

Saving lives is a waste of time? Please explain.

You deny that access to means is irrelevant to suicide completion when, in fact, access to firearms increases suicide completion.

Nope I don’t deny that. I deny that access to ONLY ONE means is relevant.
Tell me since you disparage my medical knowledge .
If a patient reveals to me that they are having suicide ideation , and I first suggest having them remove firearms from their house and they say “ I don’t have any firearms “ should I tell them “ well then you have nothing to worry about “????

Because youve been saying that 1. Treatment for mental heath issues won’t and can’t reduce that suicide ideation or stop it.
2. The only means restriction necessary is firearms .

See how silly you are???

P

Mental health services, while important, are unrealistic solutions to suicide

See above . Sweet baby Jesus.

and your faux concern for unlikely mental health access is merely a ruse to avoid taking a much more effective immediate action-- reducing means.

See above.

and you quote a study that depended upon the most unreliable source of information- historical survey questionnaire.

So what? It’s still a measure. You realize their is error in pretty much all measurements right?
Use a tape measure to measure a cut board and you’ll get several answers due to the tape measures standard deviation of error.
( thickness of lines etc).
Not to mention your measuring error.

That fact does not mean all measurements are useless.

And, in the fashion of someone who know nothing about data collection you seem to think that accurately demonstrates prevalence.

See above.

Both. Accuracy, care and continued operation requires a developed skill and the simple discharge of a weapon is easy.

Except you just disparaged the effectiveness of training that developed skill.

In your world, simplistic thinking rules; in the real world, problems are complex.

See above.
Gun banners gotta lie.

Explain again why mandatory firearm education in public school to develop the skill to handle firearms safely won’t save lives from accidents.

 

[Spock]

Great.
Let’s test its usefulness as a public safety metric.
One community has 100 suicides per 100000 people and all suicides are by means other than a firearm
A similar community has 3 suicides per 10000 and all suicides are by firearm .
Which community has the larger problem with suicide?

One community has 100 murders per 100000 none of the involve a firearm
A similar community has 2 murders per 100000 people but both done with a firearm?
Which community has a larger problem with violence?

These questions aren’t meant to be rhetorical.
However we all know that you gun banners can’t be honest and so you will never answer them.
You will never ever have any credibility in this debate if you continue to use “ gun violence” as a metric .

Your irrelevant comments do not change the well established fact that firearm violence describes the social cost of firearm death and injury.
I know gun fanatics want to change the discussion; however the facts remain in spite of the proganda.

Saving lives is a waste of time? Please explain.

Nope I don’t deny that. I deny that access to ONLY ONE means is relevant.
Tell me since you disparage my medical knowledge .
If a patient reveals to me that they are having suicide ideation , and I first suggest having them remove firearms from their house and they say “ I don’t have any firearms “ should I tell them “ well then you have nothing to worry about “????

Firearm access is a risk factor for death and injury in ANY circumstance.

Because youve been saying that 1. Treatment for mental heath issues won’t and can’t reduce that suicide ideation or stop it.

Wrong. I approve of mental health care. I do not approve of the excuse offered that mental health access is more significant than firearm access.
All the mental health care in the world will not prevent every determined individual who has firearm access to use that weapon.

2. The only means restriction necessary is firearms .

See how silly you are???


See above . Sweet baby Jesus.

See above.

So what? It’s still a measure. You realize their is error in pretty much all measurements right?

Intentionally accepting bad data is the first indication of sloppy research. All data is not created equal.

Use a tape measure to measure a cut board and you’ll get several answers due to the tape measures standard deviation of error.
( thickness of lines etc).
Not to mention your measuring error.

That fact does not mean all measurements are useless.

The assumption that any measurement is inherently valuable is merely a excuse to validate poor data.

See above.

Except you just disparaged the effectiveness of training that developed skill.

See above.
Gun banners gotta lie.

Explain again why mandatory firearm education in public school to develop the skill to handle firearms safely won’t save lives from accidents.

You should prove that interrupting academic education with firearm training has risk/benefit value.
I suspect most children know the concept of a gun and that firearm accidents (a small part of firearm violence) are related to impulsive actions and errors in judgment, not technical knowledge deficits. So, "mandatory firearm training" is nothing more than equivalent to training children to smoke or drink alcohol or to do drugs.

 

[Spock]

The logical argument:
Compare the USA to Australia (similar language, geography, culture, economic status, diversity, history)

xxxxxxxxxxx Australia
firearm death rates:
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opin...es-revealed-25-years-on-from-port-arthur.html

3.5 per 100 gun ownership

1/100,000 population firearm death rate

The stats

Port Arthur On a quiet Sunday in April, 1996, a single gunman armed with military-style semi-automatic weapons shot dead 35...

www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au

xxxxxxxxxxx USA

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

32 per 100 gun ownership

Firearm violence rate

10+/100,000 population firearm death rate

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/annual-gun-violence-data

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Conclusion

more firearm access, more firearm death

 

[rahl]

You deny that access to means is irrelevant to suicide completion when, in fact, access to firearms increases suicide completion.
Proven.

Nope. Firearms are irrelevant to homicide and suicide rates.

 

[RF667799]

The logical argument:
Compare the USA to Australia (similar language, geography, culture, economic status, diversity, history)

xxxxxxxxxxx Australia
firearm death rates:
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opin...es-revealed-25-years-on-from-port-arthur.html

3.5 per 100 gun ownership

1/100,000 population firearm death rate

The stats

Port Arthur On a quiet Sunday in April, 1996, a single gunman armed with military-style semi-automatic weapons shot dead 35...

www.gunsafetyalliance.org.au

xxxxxxxxxxx USA

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

32 per 100 gun ownership

Firearm violence rate

10+/100,000 population firearm death rate

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/annual-gun-violence-data

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Conclusion

more firearm access, more firearm death

Cherry picked comparison

"Gun violence"

Baby talk

Typical extremist nonsense.

 

[JMB1911A1]

Cherry picked comparison

"Gun violence"

Baby talk

Typical extremist nonsense.

Yup. Magical guns that cause “gun violence”.

 

[Spock]

Yup. Magical guns that cause “gun violence”.

Nope. Real guns.

 

[jaeger19]

Your irrelevant comments

Just can’t help lying can you.
Let’s test its usefulness as a public safety metric.
One community has 100 suicides per 100000 people and all suicides are by means other than a firearm
A similar community has 3 suicides per 10000 and all suicides are by firearm .
Which community has a larger problem with suicide?

Wrong. I approve of mental health care.

Hmm just a couple of posts ago you said
Spock:Mental health services, while important, are unrealistic solutions to suicide

You just said that mental health treatment is unrealistic treatment!

I do not approve of the excuse offered that mental health access is more significant than firearm access.

Yeah and that’s so ridiculous that it’s astounding to me that you would even say that.
Seriously, in your bias against firearms it’s like you forget that all the other people who die by suicide without using a firearm.

All the mental health care in the world will not prevent every determined individual who has firearm access to use that weapon.

Holy crap yes it will . If that mental health is effective it will prevent not only a firearm from being used but any other method

Intentionally accepting bad data is the first indication of sloppy research. All data is not created equal.

Very true. We all wish you understood that.

The assumption that any measurement is inherently valuable is merely an excuse to validate poor data.

Who made that assumption? Certainly not me.
For example the measurement of firearm violence is completely useless.
However your theory is that when confronted with scientific evidence you don’t like. You immediately dismiss it unless the accuracy of the data is 100 percent.
And then in the next breath you make assumptions about the prevalence of firearms when admitting you can’t measure prevalence.
Lmao

You should prove that interrupting academic education with firearm training has risk/benefit value.

Already cited a number of scientific research that shows firearm training reduces the chance of accidents.

I suspect most children know the concept of a gun and that firearm accidents (a small part of firearm violence) are related to impulsive actions and errors in judgment,

Cripes . Do you hear yourself ?
So children now don’t have to be taught safety behaviors and responsibility because “ they know that accidents “ result from impulsive actions and bad judgement.”
So no need for sex education, drivers education, safe handling of tools in shop class,
Etc.
lmao.

not technical knowledge deficits.

You just said to use a firearm safely they need special skill.???
Lmao

So, "mandatory firearm training" is nothing more than equivalent to training children to smoke or drink alcohol or to do drugs.

I see , so sex education just teaches them to have unprotected sex.
Drug and alcohol counseling teaches them to drink and take drugs ,
Drivers education teaches them to drive recklessly !!

Honestly Spock. I have to thank you.
People who are on the fence about gun control ask me all the time why I don’t accept “ reasonable gun control”
And I try and illustrate how gun control advocates are unreasonable.

Which is what you have helped me do here.
Splendidly so I might add.

You’ve now managed to argue that mental health treatment is ineffective in preventing or stopping suicide ideation and the best solution is to take away firearms from people who are not suicidal. !!! Lmao.

You’ve argued that firearm prevalence and the prevalence of sexuality in teens can’t be measured .

You’ve argued that firearm violence is a valid statistic but can’t answer a simple question about suicide or safety.


You’ve argued now that mandatory firearm training for hunters education , in schools or in private are unnecessary because all a person needs to know is that “ accidents are related to impulsive actions and bad judgement”.

“ hey Spock do we need to teach children the dangers of talking to strangers and going with them?
Spock “ heck no, we just need to teach them that accidents are from impulsive actions and bad judgement”.

You have done an awesome job of demonstrating why no one should ever listen to a gun control advocate

I thank you.

”