Can we, right and left, find common ground on the transgender issue?

[Fletch]

Sports is the sole issue with trans people in America?

What else you got?

 

[reflechissez]

1. I've been on scores of forums going all the way back to the 90s on USENET, BBses, IRC, etc
2. There isn't a subject you can name that hasn't been discussed thousands of times, so, using your logic, we should all end all future threads and just post to old ones. Hey, how about reviving soc.support.transgendered or alt.transgendered if you really want to let your hair down? They were the thing for TG issues on Usenet 30 frickin' years ago.

The Reductio Ad Absurdum applied in #2 should reveal that your point is meaningless.

I had some ideas, so I put them up for discussion.

Next time, think before you post.

You do you, boo.

 

[Lursa]

Yes I did. You not liking my reasoning does not mean I didn’t tell it to you.

Quote it. If I lied, it would be in my posts and you could quote it. You dont, because you are lying that I did so.

If you could prove I lied, you would, right?

I explained why it was crap. Why lie about it.

You didnt directly refute my post, you denied and and complained about it and that amounts to "na huh." Why lie about it? Anyone can see that all you've done since you failed to do so is make this about me instead of the subject.

The most basic tactic after you failed to dispute my post with any debate...hide behind making it personal.

When you tried to pretend your post was civil that was you lying.

Ah...quote the "uncivil" parts of my initial post.

I already addressed it. And you know it.

More bobbing and weaving. You did not argue the views in my original post 149.

Edit: Are you really just here, posting over and over, that my post was "not civil?" OMG, You are hiding from debating my post because my post hurt your feelings? Have you seen rude posts on this forum? Apparently not.

 

[hooligan]

I suggest it be dealt with at the local level on a case by case basis.

Bingo.

For one - this is a MINISCULE "issue", 0.6% of the population 13 yrs or older are transgender. Only a fraction of that fraction play sports.

Secondly, the federal government has zero business concerning themselves with sports rules.

 

[madman]

As a liberal, I support the dignity and rights of trans individuals. But I also believe conservatives raise a fair point when they argue that biological males--especially those who haven’t fully transitioned--should not compete in women’s sports or use women’s intimate facilities without some reasonable framework in place. What I reject is the cruelty of how many on the right frame it--by calling trans women “men” and denying their identity entirely.

This isn’t about erasing anyone. It’s about designing fair, respectful systems that reflect reality.

On Sports:​

Sex matters in sports. Strength, speed, and stamina are not equally distributed after puberty. That’s why we have sex-separated sports to begin with. Simply identifying as female doesn’t negate the biological advantages that linger--even after hormone therapy. So we must address this without hostility.

• I support a tiered or handicap-style system--as suggested by Keith Olbermann--for events like track and field, where performance gaps can be measured and adjusted for.
• In contact or power sports, eligibility should be tied to hormone suppression duration and athletic benchmarks, not just self-identification.
• Let’s also explore “Open” or invitational categories, not to marginalize--but to include--without compromising the integrity of women’s competition.

Fairness to female athletes matters. So does inclusion. We can uphold both.

On Facilities:​

Women’s restrooms and locker rooms are about vulnerability, not just plumbing. It’s reasonable for women to want privacy and safety in those spaces. At the same time, not every trans woman is post-operative, and not every situation is simple.

• Post-op trans women--and those who have completed a full social and medical transition--should be treated as women in public life, including facilities.
• Pre-op trans women, especially those early in transition, must understand that some boundaries exist for a reason--and dignity goes both ways.
• Let’s build more unisex or single-stall options, and establish behavior-based guidelines: no disrobing in shared open spaces, no forcing discomfort on others.

No one is calling for “genital checks”--that’s a right-wing scare tactic. But neither should we ignore women’s valid concerns in the name of abstract ideology.

On Process:​

Policy should not be imposed top-down. Let women themselves--cis and trans--lead the discussion on what boundaries make sense in shared spaces. Respect begins with listening.

In Summary:​

Trans women are not “men.” But biology is real. And when identity and biology intersect--in sports, in locker rooms, in prisons--we need thoughtful, humane policy that acknowledges both.

This isn’t about erasure. It’s about design. It’s about fairness. It’s about respect—for all.

No, hatred cant see common ground.

 

[Lursa]

Yes I did. You not liking my reasoning does not mean I didn’t tell it to you.

I explained why it was crap.

Btw, what "reasoning" did you provide? I just went back and looked...and saw no such reasoning or explanation. Just trying to actually have a discussion, instead of responding to your deflections.

It's easy to requote your reasoning, right?

 

[j brown's body]

Just because someone can verbally claim they are a different sex or a cat or a dog or a gorilla or a plant doesn't make it so.

That's why the case-by-case basis is a good idea.

 

[Lisa]

Just because someone can verbally claim they are a different sex or a cat or a dog or a gorilla or a plant doesn't make it so.

The Transgender Brain: New Insights

Emerging research confirms that gender is manifested not just in the body but also in the brain, with experts now introducing the concept of 'brain gender.'

www.medscape.com

 

[Lisa]

This isn't organic in a 4 year old. A 14 year old maybe.

It is always organic because it is programmed in the brain before birth.

No they don't have you ever been around a 4 year old they know squat.

A child only needs to know their feelings. Certainly they know that.

No. It's a social construct that a child that age must be coached in in order to identify that way.

Gender identity is not a social construct. How it is expressed is socially determined. I have explained this to you multiple times, with sources.

I don't do struggle sessions.

Is a "struggle session" what you call a psych appointment or a college class because the classical definition of Chinese propaganda tactic doesn't apply here.

Nobody's ever died from not being able to get plastic surgery.

They died by suicide because of the lack of effective medical transition care. You should develop empathy for others, and stay out of medical care that you are not qualified to even judge. A person with a lack of empathy for others is a sociopath.

I'd question the ethics of doctors prescribing this to a child that young.

4 year olds arent getting hormones because their body won't be sufficiently developed to utilize them for another 8-10 years. A transition for a 4 year old is dressing/hair style and using the name of their choice. All of which is very reversible. If you want to discuss the subject them you should have a working knowledge of that idea, which is obvious that you do not. The fact that you read or listened to a podcast or a blog doesn't prepare you to discuss the subject in an intelligent manner.

 

[dairyair]

I appreciate the effort you went to in writing that post but if you want to talk about this then let’s just rip the bandaid off. Should we continue doing sex segregated sports and facilities or not? If the answer is yes then the trans should not be slotted on the basis of the shifting sands of psychological identity. There is no need to make it more complicated than that.

There is no reason to make it more complicated than that.
Let each sports organization determine who is and is not eligible. As they've been doing since the dawn of segregated sports. This in nothing new. It's 100 years of rules.

Keep gov't out of it. Afterall, we're talking less than 50 people or so.

 

[CLAX1911]

It is always organic because it is programmed in the brain before birth.

Doubt

A child only needs to know their feelings. Certainly they know that.


Gender identity is not a social construct. How it is expressed is socially determined. I have explained this to you multiple times, with sources.


Is a "struggle session" what you call a psych appointment or a college class because the classical definition of Chinese propaganda tactic doesn't apply here.

The struggle session is if I were to apologize for something I don't think it's wrong.

They died by suicide because of the lack of effective medical transition care.

Doubt

You should develop empathy for others, and stay out of medical care that you are not qualified to even judge. A person with a lack of empathy for others is a sociopath.

I think what you're doing is manipulating.

4 year olds arent getting hormones because their body won't be sufficiently developed to utilize them for another 8-10 years. A transition for a 4 year old is dressing/hair style and using the name of their choice. All of which is very reversible. If you want to discuss the subject them you should have a working knowledge of that idea, which is obvious that you do not. The fact that you read or listened to a podcast or a blog doesn't prepare you to discuss the subject in an intelligent manner.

Any parent with a 4 year old that I identifies as trans has implanted that idea in them you're not convincing the otherwise. The parent wants their kid to be trans so they do that. I don't care if you find a thousand perverted money hungry doctors to sign off of no that dog doesn't hunt.

And you know what nobody else believes it either I don't even think you believe it.

 

[CLAX1911]

It's funny how 'get a clue and recognize some people, including children, have a brain/body mismatch' so they stop being ignorant about it turns into 'encouragement of children to deny their biological sex' as if 'encouragement is the issue, in order to discriminate against transgender people. It's the same gabage as 'conversion therapy' fo]r gay people.

Why is it so often an abuse response or internalized homophobia if it's just the natural brain body mismatch why does it seem to select mostly autistic people victims of child abuse and so forth?

 

[Linuxcooldude]

Your idea denies a century of medical science that gender identity even exists, so no, common ground cannot be found on a very simplistic 6th grade understanding of human sexuality.

Gender identity perhaps in a mental capacity. But with a full on male body.

 

[Lisa]

Gender identity perhaps in a mental capacity. But with a full on male body.

What is this nonsense supposed to mean? Transgender people, both transmale and transfemale are not biologically intersexxed.

 

[Linuxcooldude]

What is this nonsense supposed to mean? Transgender people, both transmale and transfemale are not biologically intersexxed.

So you are confirming what we already know.

 

[CLAX1911]

So you are confirming what we already know.

It's puzzling to me why people always seem to bring up intersex people with relation to transgender people.

I heard one dude saying that because certain fish can change their sex therefore it's not out of the realm of possibility for humans. Fish can also breathe water humans can't do that for very long.

 

[Lisa]

So you are confirming what we already know.

Who ever told you it was ever anything otherwise? This is a reasonably simple subject if you bothered to learn from reputable sources.

 

[iliveonramen]

That’s a whole lot of strawman ask in one post. Well done.
Please quote all the people on the right claiming they only wanted to see criminals and gang members deported. Because I know the majority of Americans didn’t want just that.

Please quote where I said people only wanted to see criminals and gang members deported.

His entire campaign and people in his administration have constantly talked about gang members and criminals as their validation for additional executive powers. They've constantly talked about millions of criminals and gang members.

People on the right have constantly conflated immigration with gangs and drug cartels. I don't think it's very difficult to find plenty of quotes from either Trump, his administration, or his voters ranting about immigrant gangs and immigrants selling drugs.

What's a lot more difficult is finding Trump, his supporters, or his administration members telling people they are going after who they are currently targeting, working families, children, and trying to remove birthright citizenship, overturning asylum rules etc etc.

It's racism wrapped in national security, pretty much a hallmark of rightwing authoritarianism.

Please provide proof that any meaningful percentage of the right who believes that female sports should be just for females thought that Title IX was an injustice.

I will wait patiently but I think we both know you will be back with exactly zero proof.

What do you want?
Rightwing think tanks?

https://www.cato.org/commentary/title-ix-swings-wildly-invisible-enemy

Bush era rule that made it easier to deny new women's sports programs

Bush-Era Policy on Sports Gender Equity Reversed

Schools Must Now Provide Stronger Evidence that They Offer Equal Opportunities for Female Athletes

www.cbsnews.com

Bush's "Commission on Opportunity in Sports" was like every other modern rightwing move to undue progress in equality, they made up a problem "Men are the one's losing the ability to play sports" and came up with recommendations that would weaken protection of Title IX.

Bush Title IX Commission Readies Recommendations

The Bush administration's Title IX commission appears set to recommend that the 30-year-old gender equity law in sports be made less rigid, a commission member says.

www.foxnews.com

The complaining from conservatives over men's sport money being spent to fund women's collegiate sports was a constant gripe in the 90's and early 2000's. Maybe you wore born in 2016 when trans in sports became an issue and were unaware of conservative views of Title IX before then.

 

[braindrain]

Please quote where I said people only wanted to see criminals and gang members deported.

His entire campaign and people in his administration have constantly talked about gang members and criminals as their validation for additional executive powers. They've constantly talked about millions of criminals and gang members.

People on the right have constantly conflated immigration with gangs and drug cartels. I don't think it's very difficult to find plenty of quotes from either Trump, his administration, or his voters ranting about immigrant gangs and immigrants selling drugs.

What's a lot more difficult is finding Trump, his supporters, or his administration members telling people they are going after who they are currently targeting, working families, children, and trying to remove birthright citizenship, overturning asylum rules etc etc.

It's racism wrapped in national security, pretty much a hallmark of rightwing authoritarianism.

What do you want?
Rightwing think tanks?

https://www.cato.org/commentary/title-ix-swings-wildly-invisible-enemy

Bush era rule that made it easier to deny new women's sports programs

Bush-Era Policy on Sports Gender Equity Reversed

Schools Must Now Provide Stronger Evidence that They Offer Equal Opportunities for Female Athletes

www.cbsnews.com

Bush's "Commission on Opportunity in Sports" was like every other modern rightwing move to undue progress in equality, they made up a problem "Men are the one's losing the ability to play sports" and came up with recommendations that would weaken protection of Title IX.

Bush Title IX Commission Readies Recommendations

The Bush administration's Title IX commission appears set to recommend that the 30-year-old gender equity law in sports be made less rigid, a commission member says.

www.foxnews.com

The complaining from conservatives over men's sport money being spent to fund women's collegiate sports was a constant gripe in the 90's and early 2000's. Maybe you wore born in 2016 when trans in sports became an issue and were unaware of conservative views of Title IX before then.

I don't think there's a middle ground. They claimed that deportations were about criminals and gang members, but cheer when regular people are treated as cruel as possible.

It’s clear you are trying to state that they are only talking about criminals. Which was never the case. But it’s funny you ask me to quote you and then go on and keep talking about exactly what you are asking me to quote.

Sorry but enforcing the immigration laws of this country is not racism. And it is something the vast majority of the people in this country want. Even if that upsets the far left.

That Cato study does not say what you are trying to claim. Makes me wonder if you actually read it.

And then what do you know. Neither does your second link. Surprise surprise.

I know this might be a real hard thing for you to grasp but thinking that a law may need adjustments in its implementation as it is having some unseen issues is not the same thing as hating women’s sports or thinking that there should be no title IX

 

[JMR]

I suggest it be dealt with at the local level on a case by case basis.

That is how it should be handled.....BUT this is a red hot campaign issue and fanning the fires for a National Policy is a sure vote getter, especially for people who do not understand tariffs or conflicts of interest etc., but get animated while discussing genitalia.

 

[markdc]

As a liberal, I support the dignity and rights of trans individuals. But I also believe conservatives raise a fair point when they argue that biological males--especially those who haven’t fully transitioned--should not compete in women’s sports or use women’s intimate facilities without some reasonable framework in place. What I reject is the cruelty of how many on the right frame it--by calling trans women “men” and denying their identity entirely.

This isn’t about erasing anyone. It’s about designing fair, respectful systems that reflect reality.

On Sports:​

Sex matters in sports. Strength, speed, and stamina are not equally distributed after puberty. That’s why we have sex-separated sports to begin with. Simply identifying as female doesn’t negate the biological advantages that linger--even after hormone therapy. So we must address this without hostility.

• I support a tiered or handicap-style system--as suggested by Keith Olbermann--for events like track and field, where performance gaps can be measured and adjusted for.
• In contact or power sports, eligibility should be tied to hormone suppression duration and athletic benchmarks, not just self-identification.
• Let’s also explore “Open” or invitational categories, not to marginalize--but to include--without compromising the integrity of women’s competition.

Fairness to female athletes matters. So does inclusion. We can uphold both.

On Facilities:​

Women’s restrooms and locker rooms are about vulnerability, not just plumbing. It’s reasonable for women to want privacy and safety in those spaces. At the same time, not every trans woman is post-operative, and not every situation is simple.

• Post-op trans women--and those who have completed a full social and medical transition--should be treated as women in public life, including facilities.
• Pre-op trans women, especially those early in transition, must understand that some boundaries exist for a reason--and dignity goes both ways.
• Let’s build more unisex or single-stall options, and establish behavior-based guidelines: no disrobing in shared open spaces, no forcing discomfort on others.

No one is calling for “genital checks”--that’s a right-wing scare tactic. But neither should we ignore women’s valid concerns in the name of abstract ideology.

On Process:​

Policy should not be imposed top-down. Let women themselves--cis and trans--lead the discussion on what boundaries make sense in shared spaces. Respect begins with listening.

In Summary:​

Trans women are not “men.” But biology is real. And when identity and biology intersect--in sports, in locker rooms, in prisons--we need thoughtful, humane policy that acknowledges both.

This isn’t about erasure. It’s about design. It’s about fairness. It’s about respect—for all.

Here’s a common ground that makes common sense: biological males compete in male sports and biological females compete in female sports.

Sounds like a sensible solution to me.

Mark

 

[j brown's body]

Here’s a common ground that makes common sense: biological males compete in male sports and biological females compete in female sports.

Sounds like a sensible solution to me.

Mark

It never mattered before. Transgenders have been competing in girls sports for years without a problem. No sense changing it now just because the right-wing wants to make an issue out of it.

 

[j brown's body]

That is how it should be handled.....BUT this is a red hot campaign issue and fanning the fires for a National Policy is a sure vote getter, especially for people who do not understand tariffs or conflicts of interest etc., but get animated while discussing genitalia.

The Dems problem isn't that they have been supportive of transgenders, their problem is that they're too afraid to express that support and why they do support it.

They could simply paraphrase Republican Governor Cox when he vetoed the anti-trans bill in Utah:

"I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality. ...kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. I hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way."

Link

And that better way is to leave it up local sports leagues who have people who know the kids and determine on a case-by-case basis.

 

[BabaVoss]

The reality is that this issues has been used as a political football / wedge issue - by design.
Far more people are arguing about than are actually involved in it.
Respect people’s individual liberty.
If it doesn’t affect you, then mind your own business.

 

[j brown's body]

The reality is that this issues has been used as a political football / wedge issue - by design.
Far more people are arguing about than are actually involved in it.
Respect people’s individual liberty.
If it doesn’t affect you, then mind your own business.

"Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few."