Can two lives become one?

[roguenuke]

So according to most of those against abortion, life begins at conception. If true, how does chimerism fit into that perspective? For that matter, where do identical twins fit?

For those unaware, chimerism is when two fertilized eggs, early in gestation (days or weeks at most), combine to form a single embryo and generally develops into a single fetus, then a single person is born. On even more rare occasion, the single chimeric embryo can divide to become two twins as well.

And of course identical twins would be one fertilized egg splitting into two embryos generally again very early in gestation. I think conjoined twins is when it happens later in gestation and would also be a part of this discussion.

Where exactly does the other life end or begin? How do you determine which life ended when chimerism occurs? Which life began at conception and which life begins with the split when it comes to identical twins? If you believe in souls, when does the soul enter a body or leave a body?

 

[Lursa]

Well this is going to end up mixing defined objective science with subjective belief or opinion.

Because when an individual human life, with Homo sapiens DNA, begins is basic 5th grade biology: at fertilization/implantation. Why would this be debated?

So just IMO trying to use the science in your OP semantically confuses things re: the abortion debate.

 

[roguenuke]

Well this is going to end up mixing defined objective science with subjective belief or opinion.

Because when an individual human life, with Homo sapiens DNA, begins is basic 5th grade biology: at fertilization/implantation. Why would this be debated?

So just IMO trying to use the science in your OP semantically confuses things re: the abortion debate.

But when life itself begins is even debated in science. When does a life become two or two become one when it comes to those things I mentioned?

Chimeras start as 2 lives from your basic 5th grade biology. At what point are they becoming just one life? You can't really say either died when we see signs of both sets of DNA, sometimes throughout the one person's body, just in different places. Would we consider that one life or 2 since the DNA itself can replicate within just one living organism, one body? I would say it was one life because of we only recognize one fully formed person, but it messes with the recognition of "life begins at conception" because that would mean there were two lives there at one time, up til the merger.

Did both lives begin at conception for identical twins eventhough only one egg was fertilized, so only one life existed at that point?

 

[Lursa]

But when life itself begins is even debated in science. When does a life become two or two become one when it comes to those things I mentioned?

Chimeras start as 2 lives from your basic 5th grade biology. At what point are they becoming just one life? You can't really say either died when we see signs of both sets of DNA, sometimes throughout the one person's body, just in different places. Would we consider that one life or 2 since the DNA itself can replicate within just one living organism, one body? I would say it was one life because of we only recognize one fully formed person, but it messes with the recognition of "life begins at conception" because that would mean there were two lives there at one time, up til the merger.

Why does that matter in a discussion on abortion? If it doesnt, I'll just pass on the debate. No big deal. It doesnt matter how many lives are in there, anti-abortities are against women ending those lives. If physiological processes influence the number of lives, again, not sure how it matters in the context of abortion.

 

[roguenuke]

Why does that matter in a discussion on abortion? If it doesnt, I'll just pass on the debate. No big deal. It doesnt how many lives are in there, anti-abortities are against women ending those lives. If physiological processes influence the number of lives, again, not sure how it matters in the context of abortion.

It's about getting people to question their thought processes. I wasn't always prochoice myself. Getting people to recognize that things aren't as straight forward, fixed as they believe can get those thought processes going.

 

[Gordy327]

It's about getting people to question their thought processes.

I am not optimisitc anti abortionists would change. They seem hung up with beliefs and feelings on the matter.

 

[roguenuke]

I am not optimisitc anti abortionists would change. They seem hung up with beliefs and feelings on the matter.

Again though, I was one of them. I used to argue on this board that there should be heartbeat bills. It was over about decade or more ago, but I had many of those debates with people.

 

[Gordy327]

Again though, I was one of them. I used to argue on this board that there should be heartbeat bills. It was over about decade or more ago, but I had many of those debates with people.

Unfortunately, most of them are not like you.

 

[roguenuke]

Unfortunately, most of them are not like you.

I have hope that some people are, can be.

 

[reinaert]

I think that the cult of the holy fetus is at this point beyond all attempts at ratiocination. You cannot think through to reasoned terms with them, since they have elevated the fetus to a divinely touched eidolon. They want a new christendom, and accompanying dark ages, and nothing is going to stop them but the sort of total defeat which, not unrelatedly, democratic societies cannot muster against reactionaries who seize the machinery of the state.

 

[Gordy327]

I have hope that some people are, can be.

As i said, im not that optimistic.

 

[quip]

So according to most of those against abortion, life begins at conception. If true, how does chimerism fit into that perspective? For that matter, where do identical twins fit?

For those unaware, chimerism is when two fertilized eggs, early in gestation (days or weeks at most), combine to form a single embryo and generally develops into a single fetus, then a single person is born. On even more rare occasion, the single chimeric embryo can divide to become two twins as well.

And of course identical twins would be one fertilized egg splitting into two embryos generally again very early in gestation. I think conjoined twins is when it happens later in gestation and would also be a part of this discussion.

Where exactly does the other life end or begin? How do you determine which life ended when chimerism occurs? Which life began at conception and which life begins with the split when it comes to identical twins? If you believe in souls, when does the soul enter a body or leave a body?

It won't matter. The declaration "Life begins at conception!" is less an appeal to reality than moreso, a siren song for conservative sectarianism.

 

[Taylor]

But when life itself begins is even debated in science.

Pretty much everything is debated in science.

 

[Taylor]

It won't matter. The declaration "Life begins at conception!" is less an appeal to reality than moreso, a siren song for conservative sectarianism.

When do you think life begins?

 

[Bodi]

When do you think life begins?

Who cares? The only thing that matters is that a woman that be pregnant should be left alone to decide what she wants to do about it.



'

 

[ataraxia]

So according to most of those against abortion, life begins at conception. If true, how does chimerism fit into that perspective? For that matter, where do identical twins fit?

For those unaware, chimerism is when two fertilized eggs, early in gestation (days or weeks at most), combine to form a single embryo and generally develops into a single fetus, then a single person is born. On even more rare occasion, the single chimeric embryo can divide to become two twins as well.

And of course identical twins would be one fertilized egg splitting into two embryos generally again very early in gestation. I think conjoined twins is when it happens later in gestation and would also be a part of this discussion.

Where exactly does the other life end or begin? How do you determine which life ended when chimerism occurs? Which life began at conception and which life begins with the split when it comes to identical twins? If you believe in souls, when does the soul enter a body or leave a body?

This may seem weird, but I have to say it because I think it applies to a situation like this: I have been reading the philosophy of these philosophers, considered generally as "postmodern" philosophers: Deleuze and Guattari. They have a very interesting metaphysics of how the world works. They liken it to a rhizome. This holds in many different things in life: but in this situation it seems to apply to what it is to be an individual. It is not a tree, a singular entity from which roots and branches diverge. It is an "assemblage" that forms a network with all sorts of other entities: both socially and biologically. Such cases highlight the difficulty of even finding the "stem" or "tree trunk" of what it is to be an individual, a subject. It is not so neatly defined. There are so many things, biologic and environmental and cultural, that go into making a person (roots), and so many things that come out of it (branches)- a chaotic network of stuff, many of it even contradictory. And like a living rhizome, it is constantly dynamic and shifting.

I have found this to be a very enlightening and even therapeutic way of thinking about the self, about ideologies, about identities, about meaning in life, etc, etc...

Rhizome (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Addendum: BTW, this seems very much to converge on some of the insights from Buddhism, and its ideas of Anatta (the no-self, not as an individualistic ego- but a nodal point merging in all directions with the rest of the universe).

 

[quip]

When do you think life begins?

Difficult to discern without political, ideological interpretation.

We do know that the mother is an alive and sentient human being, let's start with her and go from there.

 

[Fletch]

I am not optimisitc anti abortionists would change. They seem hung up with beliefs and feelings on the matter.

Why would they change. Life begins at conception. Those who believe that abortion ends a human life are correct. There is nothing to think over.

 

[Lursa]

Why would they change. Life begins at conception. Those who believe that abortion ends a human life are correct. There is nothing to think over.

Agreed. The question really is should all that the woman is and may be, and all she is to others, and her rights under the Constitution, be superseded by the state (govt) demanding she risk all that, sacrifice all that...for the unborn life.

In other words, who says it's wrong? Not the Const, not Dobbs. Who else, what authority, is allowed to take away American adults rights with no due process?

 

[quip]

Why would they change. Life begins at conception. Those who believe that abortion ends a human life are correct. There is nothing to think over.

Perhaps, by refusing to hide behind the vague pronouncement of "life" and taking an earnest, non-reactionary examination of the issue.

 

[Fletch]

Perhaps, by refusing to hide behind the vague pronouncement of "life" and taking an ernest, non-reactionary examination of the issue.

There is nothing vague about life or when it begins. Unless your goal is to terminate that life without a guilty conscience.

 

[Hamish Howl]

So according to most of those against abortion, life begins at conception. If true, how does chimerism fit into that perspective? For that matter, where do identical twins fit?

For those unaware, chimerism is when two fertilized eggs, early in gestation (days or weeks at most), combine to form a single embryo and generally develops into a single fetus, then a single person is born. On even more rare occasion, the single chimeric embryo can divide to become two twins as well.

And of course identical twins would be one fertilized egg splitting into two embryos generally again very early in gestation. I think conjoined twins is when it happens later in gestation and would also be a part of this discussion.

Where exactly does the other life end or begin? How do you determine which life ended when chimerism occurs? Which life began at conception and which life begins with the split when it comes to identical twins? If you believe in souls, when does the soul enter a body or leave a body?

It gets better.

Luce and I are identical twins. Should have been triplets, but we noshed on Little Billy in the womb.

That means that Luce and I each have one and a half souls, which makes us holier than all of you peasants.

 

[Fletch]

Agreed. The question really is should all that the woman is and may be, and all she is to others, and her rights under the Constitution, be superseded by the state (govt) demanding she risk all that, sacrifice all that...for the unborn life.

In other words, who says it's wrong? Not the Const, not Dobbs. Who else, what authority, is allowed to take away American adults rights with no due process?

Weird that we are somehow able to agree on the most contentious of all issues but disagree on all the rest. lol

 

[Fletch]

It gets better.

Luce and I are identical twins. Should have been triplets, but we noshed on Little Billy in the womb.

That means that Luce and I each have one and a half souls, which makes us holier than all of you peasants.

Mmm Nah I better not....

 

[quip]

There is nothing vague about life or when it begins. Unless your goal is to terminate that life without a guilty conscience.

It's an vague generalization intentionally designed by anti-choicers to call a calculated end to any further critical inquiries onto the issue.