Can someone who was all up in arms about masks explain the abortion decision to me?

[Cameron]

The SCOTUS decision essentially says that a day-old fetus has life/liberty interests sufficient to compel its "mother" to serve as an incubator for 9 months. Even though a young fetus has no mind, will, or feelings of its own, it can hypothetically become a person in the future, and that gives it a present interest which trumps a fully developed woman's right to control her body for nearly a year of her life (at minimum), whatever the consequences might be to her mind, career, finances, and future.

Can somebody please square that with the idea that the State cannot legitimately compel people to wear a thin piece of cloth over their noses and mouths for small periods of the day in public places, during a global pandemic in which a million Americans have been killed, in order to protect other fully grown human beings? Because it seems to me one infringement of liberty is in a completely different universe than the other.

It seems to me anybody who made even a peep about masks should be screaming their heads off over this decision. And the people who were screaming their heads off about masks, honestly, I don't know how you haven't gone into cardiac arrest over this.

 

[Crovax]

The state isn't forcing a woman to have a baby, it's nature that's doing that. All the state is saying is that they will not sanction the killing of the fetus

 

[Bear5131]

Only recently science discovered baby's in the womb could feel pain, so there's that, and why are liberals such narcissist and think science is finished, we know all there is to know?

 

[quip]

The state isn't forcing a woman to have a baby, it's nature that's doing that. All the state is saying is that they will not sanction the killing of the fetus....

....by forcing women to give birth.

 

[quip]

Only recently science discovered baby's in the womb could feel pain, so there's that, and why are liberals such narcissist and think science is finished, we know all there is to know?

A conservative and an actual appeal to science!?

What a conveniently strange arrangement.

 

[minnie616]

The state isn't forcing a woman to have a baby, it's nature that's doing that. All the state is saying is that they will not sanction the killing of the fetus

I disagree.

If states ban abortions by law they are forcing childbirt onto women who do not want to remain pregnant.
That is comparable to treating her like a slave .


Held to a fate against her will.
Deprived of the right to get out of the situation.
Unable to refuse the work involved. Receiving no compensation.
That's the very essence of slavery.

Kent Pitman (author )

 

[Crovax]

....by forcing women to give birth.

I disagree.

If states ban abortions by law they are forcing childbirt onto women who do not want to remain pregnant.
That is comparable to treating her like a slave .


Held to a fate against her will.
Deprived of the right to get out of the situation.
Unable to refuse the work involved. Receiving no compensation.
That's the very essence of slavery.

Kent Pitman (author )

That's like saying that someone is forced to be short because a state has outlawed a surgery to make them tall. Except in this case people are born short, a woman had made choices that caused her pregnancy

 

[Cameron]

The state isn't forcing a woman to have a baby, it's nature that's doing that. All the state is saying is that they will not sanction the killing of the fetus

Nature allows for abortions, the State is the only one restricting a woman's liberty.

 

[BirdinHand]

Can someone that was incredibly pro-mask/vaccine mandates explain why they're upset about this?

They were fine with states mandating masks and vaccines without legislative process even...but now also don't trust states to legislate abortion? Sort of sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? Being TOLD that you have no autonomy over your body...and that in order to have autonomy, you'll lose money, have to travel somewhere else, etc?

I get it. I think BOTH suck. I've been firmly 'your body, your choice' on both of these topics.

Many hypocrites haven’t. Many have been absolutely giddy at watching people lose jobs, etc over bodily autonomy and medical privacy.

Sadly, pro-choice has never had enough federal legislative support for it to get actually written INTO the Constitution where this ruling would have been prevented.

So, now states need to do their thing. Some have already written laws making abortion legal - some have made abortion illegal. And it is likely to stay that way for a while.

 

[Crovax]

Nature allows for abortions, the State is the only one restricting a woman's liberty.

If nature allows for them then why do you need a doctor? Most of the abortion laws only target the doctors who are providing abortions

 

[Cameron]

Only recently science discovered baby's in the womb could feel pain, so there's that

At what stage? I know the answer, do you?

and why are liberals such narcissist and think science is finished, we know all there is to know?

Since when do conservatives believe that present liberty interests can be trampled on based on speculation that science might show something hypothetically one day in the future?

 

[quip]

That's like saying that someone is forced to be short because a state has outlawed a surgery to make them tall. Except in this case people are born short, a woman had made choices that caused her pregnancy

The key word here is freewill not nature. Mankind has the power to thwart nature in cases of pregnancy. This anti-choice ruling - by force - denies a woman the liberty of freewill in this regard.

 

[minnie616]

Only recently science discovered baby's in the womb could feel pain, so there's that, and why are liberals such narcissist and think science is finished, we know all there is to know?

OMG don’t give me that line of crap.

I miscarried a catastrophic malformed little one at 20 weeks gestation years ago and have studied fetal brain development.

I worried and wondered if my little on had felt any pain before miscarrying.

I try to keep up to date on the fetal brain activity.

A leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, . current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structures to feel pain until about 26 weeks. Before that,the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.

 

[Cameron]

If nature allows for them then why do you need a doctor? Most of the abortion laws only target the doctors who are providing abortions

If nature allows for pregnancy why do we strongly recommend women see a doctor to give birth?

 

[Cameron]

That's like saying that someone is forced to be short because a state has outlawed a surgery to make them tall. Except in this case people are born short, a woman had made choices that caused her pregnancy

Actually a fetus is much more similar to the short person in your scenario. A fetus needs a womb to become a person like a short person needs surgery to become a tall person.

 

[quip]

Can someone that was incredibly pro-mask/vaccine mandates explain why they're upset about this?

Well, masks/pandemics are a communal concern. Abortion a private one.
Apples/oranges honey.

 

[Cameron]

Can someone that was incredibly pro-mask/vaccine mandates explain why they're upset about this?

They were fine with states mandating masks and vaccines without legislative process even...but now also don't trust states to legislate abortion? Sort of sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? Being TOLD that you have no autonomy over your body...and that in order to have autonomy, you'll lose money, have to travel somewhere else, etc?

I get it. I think BOTH suck. I've been firmly 'your body, your choice' on both of these topics.

Many hypocrites haven’t. Many have been absolutely giddy at watching people lose jobs, etc over bodily autonomy and medical privacy.

Sadly, pro-choice has never had enough federal legislative support for it to get actually written INTO the Constitution where this ruling would have been prevented.

So, now states need to do their thing. Some have already written laws making abortion legal - some have made abortion illegal. And it is likely to stay that way for a while.

Thanks for at least attempting to address the question.

As I said in my OP, though, the infringement of liberty interests are in completely different universes. Wearing a mask for small periods of a day is in no way equivalent to being forced to carry a thing inside your body for nine months and go through childbirth, possible c-section, possible permanent changes to your body and health risks, deal with the changing hormones and weight, deal with the costs of time off work and interference with your career, etc.

If you are someone who was offended merely at having to wear a mask, can you please tell me why you are ok with this?

 

[BirdinHand]

Well, masks were a communal concern. Abortion a private one.
Apples/oranges honey.

Then you get into who decides what is a “communal concern”

Not apples/oranges.

You can’t pick and choose what you want the government involved in when it comes to medical freedom and then bitch and complain when shit goes sideways.

Some say Covid/virus = communal concern.
Others will say that the life of unborn = communal concern.

Once you embrace government being involved in medical decisions, it opens a can that some of us don’t want opened under any circumstances.

And *magic* you get abortion laws.

Either privacy applies to medical decisions or it doesn’t - pick a side.

 

[minnie616]

That's like saying that someone is forced to be short because a state has outlawed a surgery to make them tall. Except in this case people are born short, a woman had made choices that caused her pregnancy

So you would rather the woman get an unlawful abortion and perhaps risk death or commit suicide so both life’s are lost instead of just one.

Women risk their life when they are pregnant.

My first pregnancy nearly killed me.

It did damage my kidneys and has given me lifelong issues because of my complications during my first pregnancy.

Oh , by the way I am short also but being short did not put my life at risk.

 

[aociswundumho]

Well, masks/pandemics are a communal concern. Abortion a private one.
Apples/oranges honey.

A women's drug use is even more private, yet I doubt you support a free market in all drugs.

 

[BirdinHand]

Thanks for at least attempting to address the question.

As I said in my OP, though, the infringement of liberty interests are in completely different universes. Wearing a mask for small periods of a day is in no way equivalent to being forced to carry a thing inside your body for nine months and go through childbirth, possible c-section, possible permanent changes to your body and health risks, deal with the changing hormones and weight, deal with the costs of time off work and interference with your career, etc.

If you are someone who was offended merely at having to wear a mask, can you please tell me why you are ok with this?

I’m not ok with this.

And my complaint wasn’t so much masks as it was vaccines.

Medical choice = medical choice.

I’m firmly pro-individual when it comes to medical choice.

 

[Bear5131]

OMG don’t give me that line of crap.

I miscarried a catastrophic malformed little one at 20 weeks gestation years ago and have studied fetal brain development.

I worried and wondered if my little on had felt any pain before miscarrying.

I try to keep up to date on the fetal brain activity.

A leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, . current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structures to feel pain until about 26 weeks. Before that,the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.

Like I said science is catching up

New Study Shows Unborn Babies Feel Pain at 12 Weeks​

New Study Shows Unborn Babies Feel Pain at 12 Weeks - Lozier Institute

“Science Again Points to the Humanity of the Unborn.” Washington, D.C. – A new study “Reconsidering Fetal Pain” confirms that babies in the womb can feel pain as early as 12 weeks old. Writing in the Journal of Medical Ethics, Stuart W.G. Derbyshire and John C. Bockmann state: “Overall, the...

lozierinstitute.org

 

[Callen]

It is easy. Conservatives only believe in their right to free choice when it comes to issues concerning theur lives. They have zero problem forcing their will on others, even when it doesn't affect them. However, take great umbridge when the perceive their freedom of choice compromised.

 

[KevinKohler]

The state isn't forcing a woman to have a baby, it's nature that's doing that. All the state is saying is that they will not sanction the killing of the fetus

OK.


Women aren't killing fetuses, they're just removing them from their bodies. It's nature that's killing them. It's not the woman's fault a fetus can't live outside her body.

 

[KevinKohler]

Only recently science discovered baby's in the womb could feel pain, so there's that, and why are liberals such narcissist and think science is finished, we know all there is to know?

Because Christians insist that the answer to all things is "God did it."