Can pro life defend their position

[Gordy327]

no, I didn't imply it, you've been hammering me over and over on it

You're the one who brought it up to begin with and refuse to articulate your point! So don't go whining about it when your challenged on your own point!

you and Gordy will not define what human life is - you're afraid to or cannot or you want someone else to ? I'm not sure, I'm asking ... and I get no posts from either of you defining it

I just did. See post #1,549. But why should we have to define it when it is YOUR assertion and point to begin with?

that's ok - just admit you're not going to and lets move on.

Neither are you apparently. And your cowardly dodging continues.

notice soylentgreen had very good posts and I responded in great detail ? try being like that, its better for overall discussions IMO or not, its your choice

Try answering the questions, what is the value of life & what does biology have to do with abortion? That would certainly be better and move the discussion forward rather than your dishonesty and deflections!

 

[Gordy327]

It's part of yours, which is why Gordy asked you to define it. Why cant you? So I just ask you to do so.

Because it's all just a lie covered in sanctimonious rhetoric.

 

[Lursa]

no, I didn't imply it, you've been hammering me over and over on it

you and Gordy will not define what human life is - you're afraid to or cannot or you want someone else to ? I'm not sure, I'm asking ... and I get no posts from either of you defining it

Another lie ...I have defined "human life" a million times on these threads. Here it is again:

An individual living human, Homo sapiens, is created at fertilization/implantation, having Homo sapiens DNA.

that's ok - just admit you're not going to and lets move on.

notice soylentgreen had very good posts and I responded in great detail ? try being like that, its better for overall discussions IMO or not, its your choice

So...again...why do you lie?

 

[Gordy327]

So...again...why do you lie?

Because he has no valid or rational argument. I think it's safe to say the question posed by the OP, "can pro life defend their position," has been answered. Given @stealthycat posts of constant deflections and dishonesty when questioned or challenged, the obvious answer is, No! No they cannot.

 

[jaeger19]

no, I didn't imply it, you've been hammering me over and over on it

you and Gordy will not define what human life is - you're afraid to or cannot or you want someone else to ? I'm not sure, I'm asking ... and I get no posts from either of you defining it

that's ok - just admit you're not going to and lets move on.

notice soylentgreen had very good posts and I responded in great detail ? try being like that, its better for overall discussions IMO or not, its your choice

Yet again. You are the one that brought up value of life as underpinning your premise on abortion.

Yet you refuse to explain how and why a day old baby’s life has value.

I quoted the original post where you were first to state “ value of life”.

Your post 1312

“you don't value human life, to you, it doesn't matter when people kill human life or have other human life killed

I'm not like you

that's the difference you will never understand - the value of human life”

Yet you refuse to explain it or defend it.

So again :
So again
Explain the value of a day old baby.

See we know why you won’t answer. It’s because you are full of bs. You value the life of a fertilized egg. But you DONT value the life of the mother that carries it.

 

[Gordy327]

See we know why you won’t answer. It’s because you are full of bs. You value the life of a fertilized egg. But you DONT value the life of the mother that carries it.

That about sums it up, yes. Although I doubt he "values" a zygote since he cannot explain what the value is.

 

[stealthycat]

Life:

1
a
: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body an unborn human fits this
b
: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings an unborn human fits this

c
: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see metabolism sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction an unborn human fits this
b


a
: the period from birth to death
b
: a specific phase of earthly existence
adult life

c
: the period from an event until death
a judge appointed for life

d
: a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict's life

6
: a way or manner of living

Not specifically a child's life - so are children not "life" ??

Ok, your turn now! Explain the "value of life!"

you didn't define value - you simply tried to define what "Life" is .... not what living is, not what alive is, not what a person is ... simply "life" and see the above comments on how an unborn is also life

Google AI says

Yes, human life is generally considered valuable. There are many reasons why people value human life, including:

• Uniqueness
  Humans have the ability to feel, love, experience joy, and have a conscience.
  
• Moral codes and laws
  Most societies have laws and moral codes that protect human life.
• Willingness to sacrifice
  People often go to great lengths to preserve their own lives and the lives of others.
• • Christian worldview
    The Christian worldview teaches that humans are made in the image of God, which gives them dignity and human rights.
    

However, there is no standard concept for the value of a specific human life in economics. Economists often consider the value of a statistical life (VSL), which is the value placed on changes in the likelihood of death



So what does the above tell us ? Yes, human life is generally considered valuable. Ted Bundy and Dennis Radar and Zodiac and Hitler and others didn't - but generally people do consider human life valuable. To NOT think human life valuable is odd and unusual

So that brings us back to what LIFE is ..... and again I point to biology ... a normal human pregnancy is a living mother and a living unborn. Its really that simple.

So, we know human life is valuable, we know an unborn is human life. Those are hard for even you to argue

Now what can I add? we have stacks of law protecting human life. You can't just go out and kill an innocent person because they're in your way or because they cost you money or held you back from doing something. You know this, I know this.

Hospitals? Insurance companies? They are legally bound to provide prenatal care for the mother and living unborn. We have entire hospital units set up for prenatal surgery where the unborn living human has procedures.

We also have fetal protection laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights

Many States Prosecute Pregnant Women for Drug Use. New Research Says That’s a Bad Idea. | The Center for Child Health Policy

www.vumc.org

In November, a California woman who gave birth to a stillborn baby and admitted to using methamphetamine while she was pregnant was charged with murder

California is one of the dozens of states with laws on the books that criminalize drug use during pregnancy,

 

[stealthycat]

So where are we now with all the above out and read and understood ?

Human life is valuable - our laws echo it, most religions echo it, in fact even the Google will say that its the normal. We have stacks of laws protecting innocent life, we even have laws the support unborn life by way of forcing medical and insurance to recognize it, laws saying pregnant women cannot abuse the unborn life, laws that say if you kill the unborn life you can go to prison.

Utah fathers now legally required to pay half of pregnancy costs

Utah appears to be the first state to mandate prenatal child support, according to the state’s Planned Parenthood association and the bill’s sponsor

www.nbcnews.com

"Utah appears to be the first state to mandate prenatal child support, according to the state’s Planned Parenthood association and the bill’s sponsor"

We even have one state that (and I support it) forces a man to be responsible DURING the pregnancy as he should be.


Knowing all this, all the evidence ..... how can a person NOT say that an unborn human life has no value or shouldn't be protected? Literally only pro-abortion laws say its not and shouldn't. Every other law we have contradicts pro-abortion laws.

 

[stealthycat]

You value the life of a fertilized egg.

I've never said that

But you DONT value the life of the mother that carries it.

I've never said that



you are being dishonest and making false accusations. Be better

 

[jaeger19]

I've never said that


I've never said that



you are being dishonest and making false accusations. Be better

Hey, you said you valued life.
That was the difference between you and pro choice people.
And did you not say life begins at conception ( I . E.) fertilized egg?

You have repeatedly REFUSED to explain this value of life.

Women are dying because these anti abortion laws are preventing women from getting the timely medical they need.
This is NOT a hypothetical.

In all this discussion you have not mentioned the value of the life of the mother. Much less the value of the lives of other children she may be taken care of .. or the lives of the elderly parents she may be taking care of.

All lives that will be affected by her being pregnant and having another child.

What else would someone conclude from bringing up the value of life of a one day old baby or a fetus but not the mother or other children??

I am not the one being dishonest here.

If you want to debate honestly?
You could start by explaining the value of life you base your premise on.

 

[stealthycat]

Hey, you said you valued life.

I have said that yes

That was the difference between you and pro choice people.
And did you not say life begins at conception ( I . E.) fertilized egg?

no, I never said that

You have repeatedly REFUSED to explain this value of life.

I just did

Women are dying because these anti abortion laws are preventing women from getting the timely medical they need.
This is NOT a hypothetical.

1,026,700 abortions unborn's died in 2023

In all this discussion you have not mentioned the value of the life of the mother. Much less the value of the lives of other children she may be taken care of .. or the lives of the elderly parents she may be taking care of.

and we've not discussed the value of the father - it wasn't what was being discussed

but if you want to we can, absolutely, a mother is exceptionally valuable

All lives that will be affected by her being pregnant and having another child.

certainly

What else would someone conclude from bringing up the value of life of a one day old baby or a fetus but not the mother or other children??

I don't know what you're asking

I am not the one being dishonest here.

except for saying I said two things I never said

If you want to debate honestly?
You could start by explaining the value of life you base your premise on.

based on my premise? everyone has a different opinion/view and we all forge them with facts and knowledge and we also constantly change them (or we should at least)

example - I used to be Democrat (I'm conservative now) , I used to be pro-abortion (I'm pro-life now) , I used to be anti-gay marriage (I'm pro-gay marriage now) ...... I've changed as I've learned


human life is valuable because to ME because I've been in 3 pregnancies, I have two children from them and a child we lost ... I know what a pregnancy as well as a man can and I know the impacts pregnancies have had on the women and men I've known. My daughter had her unborn child killed via abortion, I know about that and the long term impacts its had. I know of the laws we have that bind insurance companies and hospitals to care for unborn babies and all the laws protecting the unborn babies too. I know religious views, Biblical context. I've recently followed my GF's grandchild as it progressed from being known to developing to being born - technology today vs what it was 20 years ago with my kids is crazy, the pictures/video's etc of the unborn babies and how they act and move and look in the womb. None of this is debatable, its my experience, beliefs and views, and it all forges what I believe.

what I believe .... which is what you asked

others might believe differently but as I've said a thousand times - this is a subject both sides will never ever compromise on, it cannot be that way. One side will win and get their way and the other will not. I will do everything I can to ban abortion. Period, end of story

Do you want me to change your mind? I can try - and open minds might actually change and understand ... others will not. You can try to change my mind too - like my mind was changed on gay marriage - but I don't think you'll succeed. To change my mind, you'll have to prove a living innocent human life isn't being killed - because innocent human life shouldn't be killed, few people believe that it should, no laws we have allow it ..... except one

 

[Gordy327]

Not specifically a child's life - so are children not "life" ??

No mention or determination of "value" in the definition of life.

you didn't define value - you simply tried to define what "Life" is .... not what living is, not what alive is, not what a person is ... simply "life" and see the above comments on how an unborn is also life

You haven't defined value either, even though it's the basis of your argument. I never made any assertion if value so it's not for me to define.

Google AI says

Completely subjective and no more valid than your own assertions of "value."

So that brings us back to what LIFE is ..... and again I point to biology ... a normal human pregnancy is a living mother and a living unborn. Its really that simple.

I already provided a definition of life. What does biology say about abortion? What "value" judgements or assertions does biology make?

Now what can I add? we have stacks of law protecting human life. You can't just go out and kill an innocent person because they're in your way or because they cost you money or held you back from doing something. You know this, I know this.

You haven't added anything to the discussion.
Just repetitive sanctimonious rhetoric and doshonest deflections. Start by adding what the "value if human life" is, as that is your claim. Then explain what biology says about abortion! Then we can advance the discussion from there.

 

[stealthycat]

No mention or determination of "value" in the definition of life.

that wasn't the goal - the definitions you posted apply to unborn life as well

You haven't defined value either, even though it's the basis of your argument. I never made any assertion if value so it's not for me to define.

I actually did - you just don't like it

Completely subjective and no more valid than your own assertions of "value."

no more or less that your copy and pastes

I already provided a definition of life. What does biology say about abortion? What "value" judgements or assertions does biology make?

and unborns are life - 100% biological fact

abortion is when an unborn human life is killed to end a normal pregnancy and 97-98% of the time its for convenience and has nothing to do with rape/incest/health of mother - value has nothing to do with when life is

You haven't added anything to the discussion.

so you beg and beg and I give you a very long answer - and you don't like it LOL

of course, you and I both knew you'd respond like that, but I gave it anyway

Just repetitive sanctimonious rhetoric and doshonest deflections. Start by adding what the "value if human life" is, as that is your claim. Then explain what biology says about abortion! Then we can advance the discussion from there.

of course, you and I both knew you'd respond like that, but I gave it anyway

 

[Gordy327]

that wasn't the goal - the definitions you posted apply to unborn life as well

Still doesn't establish or indicate "value."

I actually did - you just don't like it

No, you didn't. It's just the same meaningless assertion. You're simply trying to assign value based on your own beliefs or opinions.

no more or less that your copy and pastes

If you didn't copy & paste your repetitive assertions and deflections, I wouldn't have to repeat the same challenges in reply.

and unborns are life - 100% biological fact

abortion is when an unborn human life is killed to end a normal pregnancy and 97-98% of the time its for convenience and has nothing to do with rape/incest/health of mother - value has nothing to do with when life is

Value has nothing to do with biology. No one is arguing if something is life or not. What is being argued is your assertion of value to life. You have yet to explain that.

so you beg and beg and I give you a very long answer - and you don't like it LOL

of course, you and I both knew you'd respond like that, but I gave it anyway

No, I'm not begging. And your answer is nothing more than a subjective based belief or opinion. It's no different than a child assigning "value" to their favorite toy just because it's their toy.

of course, you and I both knew you'd respond like that, but I gave it anyway

And I knew you'd give an "answer" based on nothing more than feelings.

 

[stealthycat]

Still doesn't establish or indicate "value."

in your opinion - but lets be honest, you'll NEVER accept anyone's definition of value, will you ?

No, you didn't. It's just the same meaningless assertion. You're simply trying to assign value based on your own beliefs or opinions.

If you didn't copy & paste your repetitive assertions and deflections, I wouldn't have to repeat the same challenges in reply.

did you not copy and paste ? yes yes, you did as did I except I added a lot more of my own original thoughts

Value has nothing to do with biology. No one is arguing if something is life or not. What is being argued is your assertion of value to life. You have yet to explain that.

I did

you did not

No, I'm not begging. And your answer is nothing more than a subjective based belief or opinion. It's no different than a child assigning "value" to their favorite toy just because it's their toy.

And I knew you'd give an "answer" based on nothing more than feelings.

except I also added how all our laws support value of life
how world wide societies value life
how religions value life

of course I knew you'd skip right over anything I posted and go straight to the "feelings" .......... so now, you pony up. Give us YOUR definition of the value of life


I doubt you will

 

[Paradoxical]

So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.

You are no conservative at all. I am anti all religions and prolife but in the case you described, which is an extreme outlier, very few pro lifers would insist she have the baby. We are talking about adults who don't take personal responsibility to get birth control, make sure the man wears a condom or abstain if he doesn't.

You know this and as usual submit the most outlandish circumstance as the norm. Change your political lean please.

 

[Gordy327]

in your opinion - but lets be honest, you'll NEVER accept anyone's definition of value, will you ?

It seems you're idea of value is entirely subjective and unquantifiable. Basically, your idea of "value" amounts to nothing more substantial than "because I said so."

did you not copy and paste ? yes yes, you did as did I except I added a lot more of my own original thoughts

My responses are applicable just the same.

I did

you did not

No, you didn't. At least nothing of actual substance, objectivity, or quantifiable.

except I also added how all our laws support value of life
how world wide societies value life
how religions value life

of course I knew you'd skip right over anything I posted and go straight to the "feelings" .......... so now, you pony up. Give us YOUR definition of the value of life

Laws do not establish or quantify any value. That's your own imagination. By your reasoning, if the law allows abortion, then the unborn holds no value or at the very least, lesser value than tbe pregnant woman, correct?
Why should I give a definition of value when I make no assertions of value to begin with? I don't make up definitions. If you want the definition of value, consult a dictionary.

 

[stealthycat]

It seems you're idea of value is entirely subjective and unquantifiable. Basically, your idea of "value" amounts to nothing more substantial than "because I said so."

laws are subjective? religious and social views and biology are not quantifiable? of course they are

My responses are applicable just the same.
No, you didn't. At least nothing of actual substance, objectivity, or quantifiable.

give me your value of life then

Laws do not establish or quantify any value.

I agree

That's your own imagination. By your reasoning, if the law allows abortion, then the unborn holds no value or at the very least, lesser value than tbe pregnant woman, correct?
Why should I give a definition of value when I make no assertions of value to begin with? I don't make up definitions. If you want the definition of value, consult a dictionary.

then you admit to being dishonest and have no interest in a discussion. You want to be able to pick apart other people's beliefs and views but you won't give your views for fear I will do the same to yours. Makes me wonder just how unconventional your belief system really is

but you'll never show us, will you? define the value of life - you desperately demand it of everyone else, I gave a very long post on my views

I think its fair you do the same, don't you ?

 

[Lursa]

So where are we now with all the above out and read and understood ?

Human life is valuable - our laws echo it, most religions echo it, in fact even the Google will say that its the normal. We have stacks of laws protecting innocent life, we even have laws the support unborn life by way of forcing medical and insurance to recognize it, laws saying pregnant women cannot abuse the unborn life, laws that say if you kill the unborn life you can go to prison.

Utah fathers now legally required to pay half of pregnancy costs

Utah appears to be the first state to mandate prenatal child support, according to the state’s Planned Parenthood association and the bill’s sponsor

www.nbcnews.com

"Utah appears to be the first state to mandate prenatal child support, according to the state’s Planned Parenthood association and the bill’s sponsor"

We even have one state that (and I support it) forces a man to be responsible DURING the pregnancy as he should be.

What is that value? Because you seem to make an assumption that people should/do value all life the same. We dont. And who says we should?

So...first quantify that value so that it can be debated. That's what we're here for. You have made the value of human life the foundation of your so-called arguments but support those 'arguments' with nothing by statements and your feelings.

Knowing all this, all the evidence ..... how can a person NOT say that an unborn human life has no value or shouldn't be protected? Literally only pro-abortion laws say its not and shouldn't. Every other law we have contradicts pro-abortion laws.

You havent provided any such evidence that 'all' human life should be valued or valued the same. It's still a claim...unquantified and unsupported.

Btw, Dobbs says that the unborn dont need to be protected. At all. Is Dobbs "pro-abortion law?"

 

[Lursa]

I've never said that

Do you? Do you value the life of the fertilized egg? Must it be protected the same as a viable fetus? Please explain your answer.

 

[Lursa]

You are no conservative at all. I am anti all religions and prolife but in the case you described, which is an extreme outlier, very few pro lifers would insist she have the baby. We are talking about adults who don't take personal responsibility to get birth control, make sure the man wears a condom or abstain if he doesn't.

And so then if the couple uses birth control and they still end up with an accidental pregnancy, abortion is acceptable? Yes according to what your post implies.

Yes?

 

[stealthycat]

What is that value? Because you seem to make an assumption that people should/do value all life the same. We dont. And who says we should?

when have I ever said that ?

So...first quantify that value so that it can be debated. That's what we're here for. You have made the value of human life the foundation of your so-called arguments but support those 'arguments' with nothing by statements and your feelings.

no

you explain what value of life means to you - I've answered that question

You havent provided any such evidence that 'all' human life should be valued or valued the same. It's still a claim...unquantified and unsupported.

Btw, Dobbs says that the unborn dont need to be protected. At all. Is Dobbs "pro-abortion law?"

then you didn't read the posts

go back, read again

 

[stealthycat]

Do you? Do you value the life of the fertilized egg? Must it be protected the same as a viable fetus? Please explain your answer.

I'd need more information ...

but no, I'm not answering you on that question as I would others - you have no interest in an honest discussion or talks. If you did? you're answer the questions asked - I have answered, waiting on you now

 

[Lursa]

when have I ever said that ?

Great, then why cant women decide for themselves, based on their needs, the needs of their families, and the obligations they have to others?

And when are you going to tell us 'when it's acceptable' to kill the unborn and when it's not? (Fertilized egg? 4 weeks? 6 weeks? 16 weeks? 24 weeks? Etc)

Come on, this is all related to the value that you refuse to quantify.

no

you explain what value of life means to you - I've answered that question

Where? I saw you source info that said most people value human life. That value isnt quantified and it's not specified for the unborn. That is up to you...for your argument on this subject. Right? Yes or no?

then you didn't read the posts

go back, read again

Yeah, I did. Now you articulate your value for human life. Then answer my question about about "when" it's acceptable to kill that unborn...if it ever is. And why/why not, based on "your personal value."

 

[jaeger19]

I have said that yes


no, I never said that



I just did


1,026,700 abortions unborn's died in 2023



and we've not discussed the value of the father - it wasn't what was being discussed

but if you want to we can, absolutely, a mother is exceptionally valuable


certainly


I don't know what you're asking



except for saying I said two things I never said



based on my premise? everyone has a different opinion/view and we all forge them with facts and knowledge and we also constantly change them (or we should at least)

example - I used to be Democrat (I'm conservative now) , I used to be pro-abortion (I'm pro-life now) , I used to be anti-gay marriage (I'm pro-gay marriage now) ...... I've changed as I've learned


human life is valuable because to ME because I've been in 3 pregnancies, I have two children from them and a child we lost ... I know what a pregnancy as well as a man can and I know the impacts pregnancies have had on the women and men I've known. My daughter had her unborn child killed via abortion, I know about that and the long term impacts its had. I know of the laws we have that bind insurance companies and hospitals to care for unborn babies and all the laws protecting the unborn babies too. I know religious views, Biblical context. I've recently followed my GF's grandchild as it progressed from being known to developing to being born - technology today vs what it was 20 years ago with my kids is crazy, the pictures/video's etc of the unborn babies and how they act and move and look in the womb. None of this is debatable, its my experience, beliefs and views, and it all forges what I believe.

what I believe .... which is what you asked

others might believe differently but as I've said a thousand times - this is a subject both sides will never ever compromise on, it cannot be that way. One side will win and get their way and the other will not. I will do everything I can to ban abortion. Period, end of story

Do you want me to change your mind? I can try - and open minds might actually change and understand ... others will not. You can try to change my mind too - like my mind was changed on gay marriage - but I don't think you'll succeed. To change my mind, you'll have to prove a living innocent human life isn't being killed - because innocent human life shouldn't be killed, few people believe that it should, no laws we have allow it ..... except one

Well. It’s a long rambling start.
Okay. So let’s start with you think the mother has value.

Great. So these abortion laws are CAUSING THESE MOTHERS TO DIE..

These are women who WANT to have babies.
But had a miscarriage and an unviable fetus that still had a heartbeat. Because of the abortion law. They could not have the miscarriage removed until the heartbeat was gone. So the women suffered without timely care and then got infected and died.

This is a direct result of the anti abortion laws you support.
In addition I’ve shown that since these laws not only has maternal death increased , so has infant death .. in addition the rate of abortion has increased.

So I guess the question is.. if you value life.

Why do you support laws that increase maternal death , increase abortion ,and increase fetal death?