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Can pro life defend their position

this goes back many many threads - "value of life" is demanded by Gordy

not me
Um no there skippy.

Your post 1312

“you don't value human life, to you, it doesn't matter when people kill human life or have other human life killed

I'm not like you

that's the difference you will never understand - the value of human life”

You brought up “ value of human life” as your premise.

And oh so many posts have you avoided, deflected and strawmanned your way away from defending and explaining your premise of “ value of human life”

So again
Explain the value of a day old baby.
 
Um no there skippy.

Your post 1312

“you don't value human life, to you, it doesn't matter when people kill human life or have other human life killed

I'm not like you

that's the difference you will never understand - the value of human life”

You brought up “ value of human life” as your premise.

And oh so many posts have you avoided, deflected and strawmanned your way away from defending and explaining your premise of “ value of human life”

So again
Explain the value of a day old baby.

Seems odd that he wont answer, since almost the only thing his position is based on is "the value of human life" and he brings it up constantly...yet cannot articulate it. Major weakness in the foundation of his beliefs.
 
For example.. a woman in a state with a fetal heartbeat provision.
Heart beat laws l are a distraction ...

Whether something is alive or not may, or may not be, subjective. In science,a human embryo is alive in the same sense that a banana is alive - it is a fertilized egg that has potential to become a viable stand-alone organism.
Something is not necessarily “alive” because it looks like a baby nor is electrical activity necessarily a beating heart.
Some say something is alive if it has a heartbeat. A human embryo will have a heartbeat when it is 5 weeks old & still not alive. Some women do not know they are pregnant at 5 weeks.

Heart cells cultured in a petri dish will spontaneously 'beat'. (electrical activity)
The entire 'heartbeat' argument is misleading. The zygotes heart may 'beat'; however unable to function until birth & closure of the foramen ovale.

12 weeks alive at that point? To my mind no, for many women or couples, they may not even know a fetus exists at 12 weeks.

With regard to abortion, does it matter whether the embryo or fetus is considered alive or not?
No.

Does it matter if the fetus can survive outside the womb if removed?
No.

This is around 24 weeks of pregnancy and, in many countries, abortion after this point is illegal unless the consequences of not doing so are worse than allowing the fetus to be born.

I also believe that it is the choice of the woman whether she wishes to carry a fetus to term or not, her reproductive decisions are none of my concern.
 
I've been clear on my views on killing unborn babies
I must challenge insistence on referring to an embryo, zygote or fetus as an “unborn child/baby”

Pregnancy begins with a small cluster of undifferentiated cells that are not, in fact, a child. The anti-choice movement calls it a child because it is essential to their spurious argument. But calling it “unborn child” does not make it so.

During gestation period the “unborn child” has a tail, webbed hands feet & gills. By no stretch of the imagination an “unborn child”.
At term, that small cluster has definitely grown into an unborn child. Somewhere on the continuum of fetal development it is reasonable to say it has become a person. That moment is difficult to define, but Roe at least made the effort.
Given the enormous consequences to the mother, it is important that we give her the right to choose her own well-being.
Matter of her choice. Is she ready/willing/able to be a mother?
Reproductive decisions belong to the lady not church/state(s).

Paraphrasing Deborah Santa Cruz, Calif.
 
Heart beat laws l are a distraction ...

Whether something is alive or not may, or may not be, subjective. In science,a human embryo is alive in the same sense that a banana is alive - it is a fertilized egg that has potential to become a viable stand-alone organism.
Something is not necessarily “alive” because it looks like a baby nor is electrical activity necessarily a beating heart.
Some say something is alive if it has a heartbeat. A human embryo will have a heartbeat when it is 5 weeks old & still not alive. Some women do not know they are pregnant at 5 weeks.

Heart cells cultured in a petri dish will spontaneously 'beat'. (electrical activity)
The entire 'heartbeat' argument is misleading. The zygotes heart may 'beat'; however unable to function until birth & closure of the foramen ovale.

12 weeks alive at that point? To my mind no, for many women or couples, they may not even know a fetus exists at 12 weeks.

With regard to abortion, does it matter whether the embryo or fetus is considered alive or not?
No.

Does it matter if the fetus can survive outside the womb if removed?
No.

This is around 24 weeks of pregnancy and, in many countries, abortion after this point is illegal unless the consequences of not doing so are worse than allowing the fetus to be born.

I also believe that it is the choice of the woman whether she wishes to carry a fetus to term or not, her reproductive decisions are none of my concern.
Well unfortunately heartbeat laws are more than just a distraction. They literally are causing death and injury to women .
 
I have always believed there are reasons to end a life. However I am very happy my mother did not decide to end my life before or after I was born. When I talked to my mother she was clear she would fight and die for her children before and after their birth. She also said I hope you are willing to do the same for me. I like to think I would.
 
Yes it's on you...so why wont you answer it?

no, its on you and Gordy - ya'll so desperately demand "what is the value of life" ? define it, tell us all here what YOU think it is
 
Um no there skippy.

Your post 1312

“you don't value human life, to you, it doesn't matter when people kill human life or have other human life killed

I'm not like you

that's the difference you will never understand - the value of human life”

You brought up “ value of human life” as your premise.

And oh so many posts have you avoided, deflected and strawmanned your way away from defending and explaining your premise of “ value of human life”

So again
Explain the value of a day old baby.

you first baby doll
 
I must challenge insistence on referring to an embryo, zygote or fetus as an “unborn child/baby”
use any word you want to use - call it a kitten if you want to, it doesn't change what it is

Pregnancy begins with a small cluster of undifferentiated cells that are not, in fact, a child. The anti-choice movement calls it a child because it is essential to their spurious argument. But calling it “unborn child” does not make it so.
if there is a normal pregnancy, there is an unborn human life in the womb - biology 101

During gestation period the “unborn child” has a tail, webbed hands feet & gills.
is it alive? is it human? its a living human - its has to be or there would be no pregnancy

By no stretch of the imagination an “unborn child”.
call it a puppy, a zef, am embryo, a kitten ... the word you use doesn't matter - its a living human unborn

At term, that small cluster has definitely grown into an unborn child.
what was it 1 day before? it was the same living unborn - no doubt about it, just a little early in development


Somewhere on the continuum of fetal development it is reasonable to say it has become a person. That moment is difficult to define, but Roe at least made the effort.
"person" - is that a legal definition ?

again - its a living human unborn - biology


Given the enormous consequences to the mother, it is important that we give her the right to choose her own well-being.
what about the enormous consequences to the unborn ?

Matter of her choice. Is she ready/willing/able to be a mother?
Reproductive decisions belong to the lady not church/state(s).

Paraphrasing Deborah Santa Cruz, Calif.

I'm anti-abortion - killing unborn human life is unacceptable to me, no different than killing it 1 minute after birth or 1 month after
 
you first baby doll
It’s your premise. Seriously,, why can’t you be intellectually honest?
You brought up “value of life”
Now you want others to define it for you?
Because you can’t defend your own statements.
 
It’s your premise. Seriously,, why can’t you be intellectually honest?
You brought up “value of life”
Now you want others to define it for you?
Because you can’t defend your own statements.

seems nobody wants to define the value of life - why ? if its so easy - do it, go ahead

ya'll are in a tiffy about, not me
 
Why won’t you?

YOU BROUGHT IT UP!!!

and yet over and over and over you, Gordy, Lursa and others are the ones talking about it

not me

can we be honest? You want me to define value of life so you can try and dismantle and poke holes in it etc. and if you define it? if Gordy does? If Lursa does? I'll do the same exact thing

we already know lawful/legal isn't what define human life value for a pro-abortion person because if laws changed? ya'll wouldn't follow lawful/legal ..... so tell me, what DOES define human life value for a pro-abortion person ?

I'm wondering more and more if ya'll don't value human life at all ....
 
no, its on you and Gordy - ya'll so desperately demand "what is the value of life" ? define it, tell us all here what YOU think it is
Why should we have to define the velue of life when it is your assertion?
use any word you want to use - call it a kitten if you want to, it doesn't change what it is
An embryo/fetus.
if there is a normal pregnancy, there is an unborn human life in the womb - biology 101
What does biology have to do with abortion?
is it alive? is it human? its a living human - its has to be or there would be no pregnancy
If there is an abortion, there is no more pregnancy either. Your point?
call it a puppy, a zef, am embryo, a kitten ... the word you use doesn't matter - its a living human unborn
So what?
what was it 1 day before? it was the same living unborn - no doubt about it, just a little early in development
A fetus.
"person" - is that a legal definition ?
Yes, also "personhood."
again - its a living human unborn - biology
Again, What does biology have to do with abortion?
what about the enormous consequences to the unborn ?
Irrelevant.
I'm anti-abortion - killing unborn human life is unacceptable to me, no different than killing it 1 minute after birth or 1 month after
That's your problem!
seems nobody wants to define the value of life - why ?
Least of all you!
if its so easy - do it, go ahead
Yes, go ahead and explain the value of life!
ya'll are in a tiffy about, not me
Not at all. We simply dismiss your argument and feelings as nonsense and a lie since you cannot articulate your own position. You're the one continuously dodging the challenge to define the value of life.
 
Why won’t you?

YOU BROUGHT IT UP!!!
Because he's being dishonest and all his rhetoric about "value of life" has been nothing but a lie! It's just a disingenuous excuse to push misogyny under a sanctimonious guise in favor of his own narrative.
 
seems nobody wants to define the value of life - why ? if its so easy - do it, go ahead

ya'll are in a tiffy about, not me
That is because it is not easy. Which is because it is not a question. It is simply a meaningless statement at best, a deliberate distraction at worst.
I take the nihilist position in the idea that there is no such thing as value. It is simply another lie we are all brought up to believe in.
For example we can look at something simple like a vase and say that it has some value. But break it down to even its atomic level and you will not find anything in the vase that can be said to be value.
It is a concept and a vague one that is completely reliant on the individuals subjective wants and needs. Thus what one person may value another may not.
With abortion a person who wants a child , needs to be a parent will value the life of the unborn child. But another who values climbing the corporate ladder may only see a child as an inconvenience and place no meaningful value on that life of a fetus.
In the case of this thread you are not asking us what is the value of life. Instead you are trying to impose your values on everyone else.
The question that should be asked is why your subjective opinion of what has value is worth my consideration.
 
no, its on you and Gordy - ya'll so desperately demand "what is the value of life" ? define it, tell us all here what YOU think it is
Seems odd that he ⬆️ wont answer, since almost the only thing his position is based on is "the value of human life" and he brings it up constantly...yet cannot articulate it. Major weakness in the foundation of his beliefs.
 
and yet over and over and over you, Gordy, Lursa and others are the ones talking about it

No, it is never a part of my arguments...lie 1⬆️. It's part of yours, which is why Gordy asked you to define it. Why cant you? So I just ask you to do so.

Or quote where I base my arguments on it? I have one standard "response": I value the unborn but I value all born people more.

Lie 2 ⬆️
 
That is because it is not easy. Which is because it is not a question. It is simply a meaningless statement at best, a deliberate distraction at worst.
you're not wrong

I take the nihilist position in the idea that there is no such thing as value. It is simply another lie we are all brought up to believe in.
For example we can look at something simple like a vase and say that it has some value. But break it down to even its atomic level and you will not find anything in the vase that can be said to be value.
It is a concept and a vague one that is completely reliant on the individuals subjective wants and needs. Thus what one person may value another may not.
again I don't really disagree


With abortion a person who wants a child , needs to be a parent will value the life of the unborn child. But another who values climbing the corporate ladder may only see a child as an inconvenience and place no meaningful value on that life of a fetus.
In the case of this thread you are not asking us what is the value of life. Instead you are trying to impose your values on everyone else.
The question that should be asked is why your subjective opinion of what has value is worth my consideration.

ahh but there's the problem

first, we're not talking about a vase or inanimate object or even an animal - we are talking about human life

give me one law in the USA where a living human can have another innocent living human killed - we don't have one, not a single one, do we? We can discuss the many many layers of laws that we have to protect human life, right? and we can all pretty much agree they're there for a reason - human life is protected and for what reason? because its valuable. Heck Democrats fight hard to protect the lives of murderers - the absolutely worst humans we have in this country and their lives (to a liberal) is so valuable they'll fight hard to stop death row. Biden just literally did that very thing.

So, laws/legal absolutely shows human life has value. However, as Gordy and others have said, if laws were changed today and abortion banned, they'd not change their views with the laws - which means how they value human life has nothing to do with legal/lawful. Me? I think it actually DOES give evidence but its also not the sole reason.

We can discuss religion too. Quick google will tell us -

General consensus: Most major religions, including Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, generally promote the value of human life and respect for human dignity as a core tenet

As a believer in Christ Jesus and Christianity, I am included in the above. However, an atheist? Maybe they have no morality rooted in religion. Maybe they think they can create morality and goodness on their own? If that's true, then a person who believed anyone under the age of 12 months isnt valuable and thus killing it is ok ...... nobody could argue they're wrong in that belief. Right ? and yet, I'd bet 99.99% of the people in the USA wouldn't go for killing infants.


So its not legal/lawful that makes human life valuable for Gordy and Lursa and it can't be religion either I don't think. So what IS it ?


I don't have to define it. What I can tell everyone is this.

A 1 minute old baby is protected by layers of laws in the USA and nearly every person would say/believe that 1 minute old baby is deserving of life. Call it valuable, use the word deserving, even protected .... but we can pretty much ALL agree to it.

That baby 1 minute before birth? Same baby, just unborn vs born. Yes, its a difference however, its literally the same living human - undeniable and its literally biology.

Can we agree on that ?
 
No, it is never a part of my arguments...lie 1⬆️. It's part of yours, which is why Gordy asked you to define it. Why cant you? So I just ask you to do so.

Or quote where I base my arguments on it? I have one standard "response": I value the unborn but I value all born people more.


Lie 2 ⬆️

so you've never demanded me to define value of human life? yes, yes you have, haven't you ?
 
so you've never demanded me to define value of human life? yes, yes you have, haven't you ?

I said it was never part of my arguments, which you implied. And I've said you should answer Gordy's question. Look at you, typing all that to hide behind and still not answering the question...about the primary foundation of YOUR position.

Why cant you? I can see it must be a very weak 'foundation.' No wonder you wont answer.
 
maybe I shouldn't
More like you can't because your assertion us just BS and a lie!
maybe I shouldn't - tell me what yours is your definition of value of life is?
Life:

1
a
: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
b
: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
c
: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see metabolism sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2
a
: the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
children … are the joy of our lives—Agnes S. Turnbull

b
: one or more aspects of the process of living
sex life of the frog


3
: biography sense 1
the life of George Washington


4
: spiritual existence transcending (see transcend sense 1c) physical death
his craving … for the release into the life to come—Rodney Gilbert


5
a
: the period from birth to death
b
: a specific phase of earthly existence
adult life

c
: the period from an event until death
a judge appointed for life

d
: a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict's life

6
: a way or manner of living

Ok, your turn now! Explain the "value of life!"
 
I said it was never part of my arguments, which you implied. And I've said you should answer Gordy's question. Look at you, typing all that to hide behind and still not answering the question...about the primary foundation of YOUR position.

Why cant you? I can see it must be a very weak 'foundation.' No wonder you wont answer.

no, I didn't imply it, you've been hammering me over and over on it

you and Gordy will not define what human life is - you're afraid to or cannot or you want someone else to ? I'm not sure, I'm asking ... and I get no posts from either of you defining it

that's ok - just admit you're not going to and lets move on.

notice soylentgreen had very good posts and I responded in great detail ? try being like that, its better for overall discussions IMO or not, its your choice
 
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