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Can anybody explain 'fair share'?

No, you're misquoting me because you have no real argument to make.

What makes your "level" of legitimate government support fundamentally different than government "stealing"? Seems to me the only difference is your latest random personal opinion on what that money can be spent on.
 
I disagree with most of your use taxation to ‘punish those evil rich folks’ nonsense, but agree with the last paragraph (bolded above). The second to the last paragraph could be easily accomplished by simply taxing capital gains income at the same income tax bracket rates as any other income source.

The problem is capital gains are taxed based on nominal dollars, so you have people paying taxes on price increases due to inflation that aren't even gains. If you sell some asset that increased in price 50% over 20 years entirely due to inflation, you will have a big tax bill for a "gain" that is nominal but not real.
 
If you try for exact numbers or percentages then people get upset.

But as a very general rule of thumb, I think it's something like: "Once you have enough to live comfortably, you don't need any more".

I think this is in part why the top marginal income tax bracket in the USA taxed income above that point at 80-90% for decades (1940-1963, to be exact, although it was 79% starting in 1936)

Edit: Got those numbers here: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-highest-marginal-income-tax-rates

What it boils down to is that the majority want a minority to have to pay more taxes so that they can pay less taxes and/or get more publicly funded benefits.
 
The problem is capital gains are taxed based on nominal dollars, so you have people paying taxes on price increases due to inflation that aren't even gains. If you sell some asset that increased in price 50% over 20 years entirely due to inflation, you will have a big tax bill for a "gain" that is nominal but not real.
It's real because if you sell it you get that gain
 
It's whatever I say it is


You are asking for an opinion not a fact
That's worthless and dishonest on top of it. Now why would you, or anyone, write it like that? For two reasons:

1. You have something in mind but it's so radical that you don't want to admit it.
2. You don't have a specific % in mind, and never will. You'll just continue to "eat the rich" as you see fit, in the standard totalitarian communist method as money continues to run out.
 
How much do we need to run the government and meet its obligations? Who has the money? Divvy up accordingly.
That's a meaningless statement. It's the "divvy" part that's relevant and needs actual details.
 
I disagree with most of your use taxation to ‘punish those evil rich folks’ nonsense,
I didn't notice that in his post. There's nothing natural or divinely-mandated about our socio-economic and legal systems; we, or more commonly our prior generations and often building from a legacy of oppression or outright tyranny, have made the decisions on how wealth should be distributed. And for some reason, a lot of people seem to perversely or just ignorantly assume that an effective productive system, like our varieties of capitalism, must also necessarily be a good or fair distributive system. It's like saying "military chain of command is functionally efficient, and therefore the people at the top are the most beautiful" - there's simply no connection between the two.

We know that capitalism has an inherent tendency to concentrate wealth upwards, through several mechanisms but most importantly through the passive investment income which allows one person to accumulate wealth at thousands or even millions of times the rate of someone actually earning a wage. That's simply a feature of the system, like manure in a chicken farm, but there's no obvious reason why we should feel compelled to just let it keep piling up at the top. Why not spread it around a bit, use it to make fertilizer, so to speak? Supposedly the system is meant to generate wealth for everyone, not just a few, so let's bloody well do that!

It's got nothing to do with hating or 'punishing' the people who happen to be at the top through whose accounts the system inevitably passes so much money. Quite the opposite, suggesting that they fundamentally deserve all that money seems like a level of adulation and worship which really isn't warranted (as highlighted for example in post #403).

I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People's Money out of their Pockets, tho' only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors' Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell'd to pay by some Law.​
All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.​
 
That's worthless and dishonest on top of it. Now why would you, or anyone, write it like that? For two reasons:

1. You have something in mind but it's so radical that you don't want to admit it.
2. You don't have a specific % in mind, and never will. You'll just continue to "eat the rich" as you see fit, in the standard totalitarian communist method as money continues to run out.
I laid out exactly my tax plan if you read the thread


So again you are just flat out wrong. Lol
 
That's a meaningless statement. It's the "divvy" part that's relevant and needs actual details.

Yes, it requires knowing the actual distribution of available resources among the taxpayers. It’s just a math problem.
 
IMO, flat sales taxes are regressive. Flat rate income taxes are not.
This 100%. Flat income tax is the most fair and equal form of taxation that you can set up. All other taxes (e.g. property, sales, ect) would all have to be abolished (most of them are very regressive anyways). There would be no refunds at the end of the year.

I predict it would result in the lower end of income earners being taxed less because of those very regressive sales, property, and other taxes that they have to pay out would be gone.
 
I never said anything about punishing anybody. Taxation is not punishment. Particularly in the upper wealth brackets. It is nothing but a number to them. Their lifestyles are not impacted by taxation. There has never been a rich man taxed into poverty. The upper tax brackets only apply to income over what everyone else earns.

There is a threshold above which working is no longer required. When wealth becomes so great that a family can live well on the interest alone, working and earning are no longer required. Any earnings above that are simply added onto the net worth.

That's correct.

It should be taxed heavily.

No, because if they keep the money they will invest it, and they have a very strong incentive to invest properly, which will produce more goods and services, and more productive jobs. If you give their money to the filthy government, it will not be used productively. Here is an entire website dedicated to government waste, fraud, and corruption:


The family will not even feel it.

Doesn't matter, because we are still better off keeping the money in private hands.
 
This 100%. Flat income tax is the most fair and equal form of taxation that you can set up. All other taxes (e.g. property, sales, ect) would all have to be abolished (most of them are very regressive anyways). There would be no refunds at the end of the year.

I predict it would result in the lower end of income earners being taxed less because of those very regressive sales, property, and other taxes that they have to pay out would be gone.
Do you even know which nations have a flat tax? Lol
 
What makes your "level" of legitimate government support fundamentally different than government "stealing"? Seems to me the only difference is your latest random personal opinion on what that money can be spent on.
The "right" level of government services is subjective, but look at some of the arguments here. They're not about extracting enough money from the private sector to fund basic government services. Claims have been made here that it is somehow morally wrong, or even unhealthy, for some to amass large fortunes and for those reasons alone their wealth should be taken away.

That's not an argument about funding government. That's social engineering via taxation.
 
What it boils down to is that the majority want a minority to have to pay more taxes so that they can pay less taxes and/or get more publicly funded benefits.
It's more that doing so is better for the nation as a whole.

Since it makes the start of the capitalism climb easier, and provides better consumers with more funds..
 
Left-wing logic: Poor people are poor because rich people are rich.
Poor people are poor because their expenses consume too much (or more than 100%) of their income.
This is especially the case if they're right on the edge of not having enough income, and have unexpected expenses that push them into getting loans they then can't repay.

Edit: The disagreements over addressing this issue arise from the differing opinions about what is to blame.

If it's 75% because they're lazy shits then the solution is to force them to not be lazy. And we can ignore the 25% blame directed at the system they live in.
If it's 75% because the system makes it too hard, then the solution is to make the system easier to live in. And we can (but probably shouldn't) ignore the 25% blame directed at the lazy shit aspect of various people's personalities.

There's probably even a feedback loop or two involved in some cases, where a person is so stressed by their shitty financial situation that they acquire mental disorders and that makes it worse.
 
We know that capitalism has an inherent tendency to concentrate wealth upwards, through several mechanisms but most importantly through the passive investment income which allows one person to accumulate wealth at thousands or even millions of times the rate of someone actually earning a wage. That's simply a feature of the system, like manure in a chicken farm, but there's no obvious reason why we should feel compelled to just let it keep piling up at the top. Why not spread it around a bit, use it to make fertilizer, so to speak?

One reason is because you have to use force to take it from them, thereby weakening the institutions which allow wealth to be created in the first place. Why do you think so many countries in the world stay poor? It's because their institutions are shit regarding property rights. Left-wing thieving governments drive out capital.
 
One reason is because you have to use force to take it from them, thereby weakening the institutions which allow wealth to be created in the first place. Why do you think so many countries in the world stay poor? It's because their institutions are shit regarding property rights. Left-wing thieving governments drive out capital.
Yeah but we are not poor
 
IMO, flat sales taxes are regressive.

No more so than flat (fixed?) sales prices are. The sales tax is simply a flat percentage of the sales price.

Flat rate income taxes are not.

That is true, when coupled with an exemption amount they become progressive especially up to the point where the tax exemption amount is a truly minuscule portion of the taxpayer’s income amount.
 
You might be able to get our friends on the left to agree to a 100% flat rate. ;)
Not unless we're getting rid of capitalism and distributing resources based on need.

Otherwise I still need money.
 
The "right" level of government services is subjective, but look at some of the arguments here. They're not about extracting enough money from the private sector to fund basic government services. Claims have been made here that it is somehow morally wrong, or even unhealthy, for some to amass large fortunes and for those reasons alone their wealth should be taken away.
And what has been conspicuously absent from the thread is any kind of rational answer to the fact that extreme concentration of wealth is indeed a threat to democracy, infringes others' liberty, and drives the resource depletion and ecological degradation which is undermining the very conditions on which our modern global civilization is built.

That's not an argument about funding government. That's social engineering via taxation.
Of course. The current system is also social engineering. You don't think that complex financial mechanisms evolved alongside opposable thumbs or were handed down to Moses on carved tablets, do you?

There's so much potential for investment in infrastructure, education, healthcare, scientific research, sustainable energy and development, environmental resoration/rewilding, space programs and so on which could be funded. What you're suggesting is that there should be an arbitrary upper limit imposed on a society's potential, purely based on a dogmatic adherence to the social engineering framework largely established in far less democratic and more oppressive decades... even in spite of the demonstrable harm and vast dangers that framework represents!
 
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