The fatal stabbing of a rapper has prompted mounting calls in Greece for the banning of the far-right party Golden Dawn. Civil servants remain on strike for a second day over planned job cuts wanted by creditors.
Wednesday's fatal stabbing of Pavlos Fyssas, an anti-fascist leftist, by a Golden Dawn sympathizer drew mounting condemnation across Greece's political spectrum as hundreds of mourners gathered for his funeral west of Athens.
Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn | News | DW.DE | 19.09.2013
A rapper? A rapper? Really? You want to ban a political party because a rapper is dead and you have no evidence that it was a party decision (so an execution), just that a party sympathiser was involved. So not even a party member. And come on, it's a rapper... there are few things in life you can do that are as demeaning and worthless as being a rapper. Namely, being a communist is a greater mockery of your life... but rapper is a close second.
If someone of value had been stabbed, like a professor or doctor or a lawyer... or even an unemployed guy who was just minding his business. fine, then yes, you have a leg to stand on, even though political censorship is wrong. But a rapper?
Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.
Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn | News | DW.DE | 19.09.2013
A rapper? A rapper? Really? You want to ban a political party because a rapper is dead and you have no evidence that it was a party decision (so an execution), just that a party sympathiser was involved. So not even a party member. And come on, it's a rapper... there are few things in life you can do that are as demeaning and worthless as being a rapper. Namely, being a communist is a greater mockery of your life... but rapper is a close second.
If someone of value had been stabbed, like a professor or doctor or a lawyer... or even an unemployed guy who was just minding his business. fine, then yes, you have a leg to stand on, even though political censorship is wrong. But a rapper?
Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.
Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
I agree with that statement, but I disagree with stopping people from expressing their beliefs no matter how disgusting they are. From the look of it their beliefs are pretty awful, but they don't deserve to be forcibly censured.
Expressing their beliefs is one thing, but actively working towards the goal of enslaving all who disagree with them (by toppling the democratic system) and organizing armed militias is a whole different matter, IMO. They're clearly abusing their freedom.
Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.
Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.
Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.
Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
Some rappers are pretty good. I wouldn't say their life is necessarily worse less than a doctor or lawyer. Either way if a political party actually did order the execution of someone, even a rapper, I don't think the party deserves to be banned, but at the very least should have all their leaders arrested.
So, what criteria would you use for banning a political organisation?
I agree in general, but parties whose platform advocates for and whose behaviour enacts violence, as Golden Dawn's has done from the beginning, then you need to protect those who are in the firing line.You don't ban political parties because if you do, they will go underground and their activities won't stop... but will become more radicalized and come back stronger than before and with a bigger axe to grind.
I generally agree, you fight fire with fire, but if the fire you're dealing with involves the intimidation, persecution and violent repression of its opponents, which GD does, then fighting fire with fire leads to violent conflict.The way you deal with radicals, as a party that is more moderate, is that you wipe the floor with them in the public arena. If you, as a political party that is not radical, cannot do that... If your party is full of incompetents and weak-willed idiots, then you deserve to fade to history. So it is in the interest of all political parties to drop party politics and nepotism and let the best people they have shine and take command of the situation thus, adverting the crisis.
I agree in general, but parties whose platform advocates for and whose behaviour enacts violence, as Golden Dawn's has done from the beginning, then you need to protect those who are in the firing line.
I generally agree, you fight fire with fire, but if the fire you're dealing with involves the intimidation, persecution and violent repression of its opponents, which GD does, then fighting fire with fire leads to violent conflict.
I repeat, what criteria would you use for combatting a violent political movement like Golden Dawn? You think that having their spokespeople losing public debates has any effect on their militants' violent actions? If you say that it undermines their public support, I agree, but they have relatively little public support anyway. How do you behave in the here and now about the violent actions of their supporters?
Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.
Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.
Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
Expressing their beliefs is one thing, but actively working towards the goal of enslaving all who disagree with them (by toppling the democratic system) and organizing armed militias is a whole different matter, IMO. They're clearly abusing their freedom.
What are their main demands? Regulate immigration and start deporting illegals? It's not unreasonable. Abandon the euro? The majority of greeks don't want that so you need to make that clear.
So, what criteria would you use for banning a political organisation?
Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.
Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.
Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
I repeat, what criteria would you use for combatting a violent political movement like Golden Dawn? You think that having their spokespeople losing public debates has any effect on their militants' violent actions? If you say that it undermines their public support, I agree, but they have relatively little public support anyway. How do you behave in the here and now about the violent actions of their supporters?
Such a stance might be even more respectable were it applied to ALL who are enemies of freedom wishing to abolish tolerance rather than just those deemed "far right" or of one's similar culture.
Far too many limit their criticism to those with the appropriate label while giving a free pass to those in a protected group.
The issues and individuals who find a voice through the GD are not going to simply disappear when you ban the party. All such measures tend to do is add legitimacy in the eyes of their followers by realizing an ideology of political persecution
So the Communist party should be banned too? And the organisations that organized demonstrations in which bank employees were burned to death should be banned too?
You don't ban political parties because if you do, they will go underground and their activities won't stop... but will become more radicalized and come back stronger than before and with a bigger axe to grind.
That is a good argument and a real possibility. But at some point, a ban is more beneficial than allowing them to go on. "The lesser evil", so to speak. I don't know if that point has already been reached in Greece.
I believe they should be combatted on all fronts, and every attempt should be made to marginalize them, but if the biggest battle is one of hearts and minds, the steps that will prove most useful are those that would take away any possible appeal they might have so their influence does not grow. Sure, Greece should deal with their thuggish methods, but if it isn't addressing the issues they bring to the table, those issues will not go away.
it's not about it being a lesser evil, but the entire thing being totally ineffectual, short of measures most modern states won't engage in. Why not just prosecute the members that engage in criminal activity and address the issues that they are able to recruit on
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