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Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn

Rainman05

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Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn | News | DW.DE | 19.09.2013

The fatal stabbing of a rapper has prompted mounting calls in Greece for the banning of the far-right party Golden Dawn. Civil servants remain on strike for a second day over planned job cuts wanted by creditors.
Wednesday's fatal stabbing of Pavlos Fyssas, an anti-fascist leftist, by a Golden Dawn sympathizer drew mounting condemnation across Greece's political spectrum as hundreds of mourners gathered for his funeral west of Athens.

A rapper? A rapper? Really? You want to ban a political party because a rapper is dead and you have no evidence that it was a party decision (so an execution), just that a party sympathiser was involved. So not even a party member. And come on, it's a rapper... there are few things in life you can do that are as demeaning and worthless as being a rapper. Namely, being a communist is a greater mockery of your life... but rapper is a close second.

If someone of value had been stabbed, like a professor or doctor or a lawyer... or even an unemployed guy who was just minding his business. fine, then yes, you have a leg to stand on, even though political censorship is wrong. But a rapper?

Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.
 

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Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn | News | DW.DE | 19.09.2013




A rapper? A rapper? Really? You want to ban a political party because a rapper is dead and you have no evidence that it was a party decision (so an execution), just that a party sympathiser was involved. So not even a party member. And come on, it's a rapper... there are few things in life you can do that are as demeaning and worthless as being a rapper. Namely, being a communist is a greater mockery of your life... but rapper is a close second.

If someone of value had been stabbed, like a professor or doctor or a lawyer... or even an unemployed guy who was just minding his business. fine, then yes, you have a leg to stand on, even though political censorship is wrong. But a rapper?

Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.

remember we are talking about a socialist country that has become so addicted to government hand outs they feel threatened if anyone talks about scaling any of it back to save the country they would rather see their country go down the ****ter than give up any benefits
 

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Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.

Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.

Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.
 

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Calls mount to ban Greek far-right party Golden Dawn | News | DW.DE | 19.09.2013




A rapper? A rapper? Really? You want to ban a political party because a rapper is dead and you have no evidence that it was a party decision (so an execution), just that a party sympathiser was involved. So not even a party member. And come on, it's a rapper... there are few things in life you can do that are as demeaning and worthless as being a rapper. Namely, being a communist is a greater mockery of your life... but rapper is a close second.

If someone of value had been stabbed, like a professor or doctor or a lawyer... or even an unemployed guy who was just minding his business. fine, then yes, you have a leg to stand on, even though political censorship is wrong. But a rapper?

Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.

Some rappers are pretty good. I wouldn't say their life is necessarily worse less than a doctor or lawyer. Either way if a political party actually did order the execution of someone, even a rapper, I don't think the party deserves to be banned, but at the very least should have all their leaders arrested.
 

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Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.

I agree with that statement, but I disagree with stopping people from expressing their beliefs no matter how disgusting they are. From the look of it their beliefs are pretty awful, but they don't deserve to be forcibly censured.
 

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I agree with that statement, but I disagree with stopping people from expressing their beliefs no matter how disgusting they are. From the look of it their beliefs are pretty awful, but they don't deserve to be forcibly censured.

Expressing their beliefs is one thing, but actively working towards the goal of enslaving all who disagree with them (by toppling the democratic system) and organizing armed militias is a whole different matter, IMO. They're clearly abusing their freedom.
 

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Expressing their beliefs is one thing, but actively working towards the goal of enslaving all who disagree with them (by toppling the democratic system) and organizing armed militias is a whole different matter, IMO. They're clearly abusing their freedom.

I agree with that. I'd be for prosecuting anyone involved with that. I'm not sure banning the party completely is a good thing though. Although I admit, I don't know very much about Golden Dawn. In general I'm hesitant to outright ban political parties or organizations.
 

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Anyway. the golden dawn and it's supporters are idiots if they think they can win anything with violence. They'll get a small minority in the parliament and if you deny them a political voice, then you are only making things worse. The reason the golden dawn will never be even close to a majority or a dominant party in Greece is because they want to get rid of the euro. And the vast majority of greeks want to keep the euro and don't want to return to the drachma.

So, what criteria would you use for banning a political organisation?
 

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Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.

Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.

Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.

While human life is worth the same in the eyes of the government and the law, it's not the same when it comes down to private individuals. My life, to me, is worth more than anyone else's and the lives of those close to me is worth more than those I don't know. So yeah.

In the eyes of the state and the law, sure, everyone's life is worth the same because we are all equal in the face of the law. So the guy who did the stabbing should go to prison for murder because it was a private individual breaking the law, not an officer of the state doing something illegal.

And yes, this is true. I agree completely. And that's why I dont' think the golden dawn should win the elections and become the ruling party in Greece. I think it will be very bad for Greece if they do. At the same time, I don't want the commies in Greece to win either. And I want the guys who are currently in power, and the more moderate parties, to do their job well and listen to the people and obey their sovereingty. If the moderate parties in Greece continue to drop the ball on issues the public feel are important, then the radicals will get their hands on power.


Some rappers are pretty good. I wouldn't say their life is necessarily worse less than a doctor or lawyer. Either way if a political party actually did order the execution of someone, even a rapper, I don't think the party deserves to be banned, but at the very least should have all their leaders arrested.

There is no evidence that the golden dawn ordered the execution of the rapper, and no, their lives are meaningless. Ofc, as I said before, not to the state. The law is the law and all are equal in front of it. But from the point of view of society, the death or a rapper is 99.9% of the times a blessing since a source stupidity and ignorance dies. And making allowances for the 0.1% is not worth the time of day. Dead people are better people than communists or rappers.

So, what criteria would you use for banning a political organisation?

You don't ban political parties because if you do, they will go underground and their activities won't stop... but will become more radicalized and come back stronger than before and with a bigger axe to grind.

The way you deal with radicals, as a party that is more moderate, is that you wipe the floor with them in the public arena. If you, as a political party that is not radical, cannot do that... If your party is full of incompetents and weak-willed idiots, then you deserve to fade to history. So it is in the interest of all political parties to drop party politics and nepotism and let the best people they have shine and take command of the situation thus, adverting the crisis.
 

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You don't ban political parties because if you do, they will go underground and their activities won't stop... but will become more radicalized and come back stronger than before and with a bigger axe to grind.
I agree in general, but parties whose platform advocates for and whose behaviour enacts violence, as Golden Dawn's has done from the beginning, then you need to protect those who are in the firing line.

The way you deal with radicals, as a party that is more moderate, is that you wipe the floor with them in the public arena. If you, as a political party that is not radical, cannot do that... If your party is full of incompetents and weak-willed idiots, then you deserve to fade to history. So it is in the interest of all political parties to drop party politics and nepotism and let the best people they have shine and take command of the situation thus, adverting the crisis.
I generally agree, you fight fire with fire, but if the fire you're dealing with involves the intimidation, persecution and violent repression of its opponents, which GD does, then fighting fire with fire leads to violent conflict.

I repeat, what criteria would you use for combatting a violent political movement like Golden Dawn? You think that having their spokespeople losing public debates has any effect on their militants' violent actions? If you say that it undermines their public support, I agree, but they have relatively little public support anyway. How do you behave in the here and now about the violent actions of their supporters?
 

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I agree in general, but parties whose platform advocates for and whose behaviour enacts violence, as Golden Dawn's has done from the beginning, then you need to protect those who are in the firing line.

I generally agree, you fight fire with fire, but if the fire you're dealing with involves the intimidation, persecution and violent repression of its opponents, which GD does, then fighting fire with fire leads to violent conflict.

I repeat, what criteria would you use for combatting a violent political movement like Golden Dawn? You think that having their spokespeople losing public debates has any effect on their militants' violent actions? If you say that it undermines their public support, I agree, but they have relatively little public support anyway. How do you behave in the here and now about the violent actions of their supporters?

You put the violent ppl in jail after you prosecute them.

And you cut further chance for support by making them lose their image.

At the end of the day, they are still citizens who must have a voice. And if none of the moderate parties won't be there to at least listen, the people who feel disenfranchized will look elsehwhere. What are their main demands? Regulate immigration and start deporting illegals? It's not unreasonable. Abandon the euro? The majority of greeks don't want that so you need to make that clear.
 

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Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.

Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.

Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.

So the Communist party should be banned too? And the organisations that organized demonstrations in which bank employees were burned to death should be banned too?
 

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Expressing their beliefs is one thing, but actively working towards the goal of enslaving all who disagree with them (by toppling the democratic system) and organizing armed militias is a whole different matter, IMO. They're clearly abusing their freedom.

By that definition most Greek unions should be banned.
 

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What are their main demands? Regulate immigration and start deporting illegals? It's not unreasonable. Abandon the euro? The majority of greeks don't want that so you need to make that clear.


It's much more than that:

"We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race" - Nikolaos Michaliakos, founder of Golden Dawn.
 

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So, what criteria would you use for banning a political organisation?

Only political organisations that openly and exlcitely advocate the violent overthrow of the government and the democratic system should be banned.
 

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Dead is dead, and I believe every human life is worth the same. This is self evident and I'd be extremely frightened if anybody suggested that the life of a rapper is worth less than the life of, say, a doctor or professor.

Regardless of that, I am perfectly fine with banning parties that are A) obviously anti-freedom, anti-constitution and anti-democracy, and B) arming a militia they'll use against minorities and/or the official authorities. Golden Dawn does both, so it 100% deserves to be banned, hands down.

Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.

The issues and individuals who find a voice through the GD are not going to simply disappear when you ban the party. All such measures tend to do is add legitimacy in the eyes of their followers by realizing an ideology of political persecution
 

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Freedom and tolerance does not require to be tolerant towards the enemies of freedom who want to abolish this exact tolerance. Using any legal means to fight down and defeat such enemies of freedom is not a sign of a lack of tolerance, but a sign that you're willing to fight for tolerance and freedom. Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance.

Such a stance might be even more respectable were it applied to ALL who are enemies of freedom wishing to abolish tolerance rather than just those deemed "far right" or of one's similar culture.

Far too many limit their criticism to those with the appropriate label while giving a free pass to those in a protected group.
 

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I repeat, what criteria would you use for combatting a violent political movement like Golden Dawn? You think that having their spokespeople losing public debates has any effect on their militants' violent actions? If you say that it undermines their public support, I agree, but they have relatively little public support anyway. How do you behave in the here and now about the violent actions of their supporters?

I believe they should be combatted on all fronts, and every attempt should be made to marginalize them, but if the biggest battle is one of hearts and minds, the steps that will prove most useful are those that would take away any possible appeal they might have so their influence does not grow. Sure, Greece should deal with their thuggish methods, but if it isn't addressing the issues they bring to the table, those issues will not go away.
 

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Such a stance might be even more respectable were it applied to ALL who are enemies of freedom wishing to abolish tolerance rather than just those deemed "far right" or of one's similar culture.

Far too many limit their criticism to those with the appropriate label while giving a free pass to those in a protected group.

I do not. If any other group, if far-left extremists, islamists or anybody else rose to the threat level of Golden Dawn or the neo-Nazi NPD in Germany, I'm all in favor of banning them.

Anyway, I'm glad that you didn't explicitly mention Islam in this context. But I'll do you the favor: If there was an islamist political party that actively worked towards the goal of destroying the constitutional order and/or setting up a militia, I'm 100% for banning it without the slightest exception. Terror cells can be and are banned and prosecuted already anyway.

Point being that at least in Germany, and nowhere else in the Western world, Muslims are even close to establishing political parties, to my knowledge. While most have far-right extremists, anti-Islam hate preachers and many have far-left parties. So this is a fight against windmills.
 

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The issues and individuals who find a voice through the GD are not going to simply disappear when you ban the party. All such measures tend to do is add legitimacy in the eyes of their followers by realizing an ideology of political persecution

That is a good argument and a real possibility. But at some point, a ban is more beneficial than allowing them to go on. "The lesser evil", so to speak. I don't know if that point has already been reached in Greece.
 

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So the Communist party should be banned too? And the organisations that organized demonstrations in which bank employees were burned to death should be banned too?

If they match the criteria I stated above, yes, absolutely.
 

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You don't ban political parties because if you do, they will go underground and their activities won't stop... but will become more radicalized and come back stronger than before and with a bigger axe to grind.

That didn't happen with the Nazi "German Reich Party" which was banned in West-Germany in 1953, and neither with the communist KPD which was banned in 1956. Both bans were successful, and neo-Nazis were basically nonexistant until 1990, when they got a moderate foothold in the east. And real commies are still virtually non-existant.
 

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That is a good argument and a real possibility. But at some point, a ban is more beneficial than allowing them to go on. "The lesser evil", so to speak. I don't know if that point has already been reached in Greece.

it's not about it being a lesser evil, but the entire thing being totally ineffectual, short of measures most modern states won't engage in. Why not just prosecute the members that engage in criminal activity and address the issues that they are able to recruit on
 

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I believe they should be combatted on all fronts, and every attempt should be made to marginalize them, but if the biggest battle is one of hearts and minds, the steps that will prove most useful are those that would take away any possible appeal they might have so their influence does not grow. Sure, Greece should deal with their thuggish methods, but if it isn't addressing the issues they bring to the table, those issues will not go away.

Forgive my polemics for a moment, but I can't help it: ;)

What exactly are legitimate "issues" Nazis "bring to the table"? That immigrants shall be gassed to death? That democracy shall be abolished? Look, you're apologizing for genuine hardcore ultra-Nazis here, probably just because they have a beef with Muslims, right?

They *have* no legitimate issues on the table whatsoever. They are freedom-hating, pre-enlightenment advocates of totalitarianism. They deserve to be reeducated by force, if necessary, and when that's not possible, either be thrown into prison because they are severe threat for everybody else. America regularly even bombs such people.
 

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it's not about it being a lesser evil, but the entire thing being totally ineffectual, short of measures most modern states won't engage in. Why not just prosecute the members that engage in criminal activity and address the issues that they are able to recruit on

Well, as I said, it was not ineffectual at all in West-Germany.

And yes, of course the underlying issues shall be addressed (and problems with immigrants are a *symptom*, not the underlying issue, since they're mere scapegoats), but hey, why not burn the candle on both sides?
 
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