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California Prop 36 Overwhelmingly Passes

I can’t believe I have to say this.

If you’re a struggling drug addict, you don’t deserve live in prison and involuntary solitude.
There are unfortunately millions of Americans with substance abuse issues. The majority of them are not thieves.

California didn’t vote to make drug addiction a felony, they voted to make theft a felony again. The fact that over the last 4 to 5 years, half of Americans have to get a store clerk to unlock a cabinet to buy deodorant, is part of the reason Democrats had such a bad night up and down the ballot. Every time the Democrats try to appease the far left, it is disastrous electorally. Trump, a reprehensible person, just won with the most diverse coalition of any Republican since 1988. Law and order is popular. People don’t like getting their shit stolen and nothing done about it.
 
There are unfortunately millions of Americans with substance abuse issues. The majority of them are not thieves.

California didn’t vote to make drug addiction a felony, they voted to make theft a felony again. The fact that over the last 4 to 5 years, half of Americans have to get a store clerk to unlock a cabinet to buy deodorant, is part of the reason Democrats had such a bad night up and down the ballot. Every time the Democrats try to appease the far left, it is disastrous electorally. Trump, a reprehensible person, just won with the most diverse coalition of any Republican since 1988. Law and order is popular. People don’t like getting their shit stolen and nothing done about it.
Drug crimes are also lumped in, I already cited it in #41. I don’t care about the theft part. No need to try and convince me, I’m fine with it.

I’m aware of how it was branded, and how it would have been branded if California voted against it. When I read it on the ballot, it specifically mentioned including drug crimes. I wish they’d left that part out.
 
California didn’t vote to make drug addiction a felony, they voted to make theft a felony again.

Actually, the main thing that Prop 36 did that Prop 47 took away was the penalties for repeat offenders. It is not that they made theft a felony, they made repeated cases of theft a felony.

The amount stolen is still the same under 36 as it was for 47. But there is no longer the revolving door of getting caught, paying a minimal fine, then being cut lose to do it again. Get caught a third time, that's a felony.

I was doing Loss Prevention in California under 47, and what we call the "professionals" just saw it as a game. They could steal $900 in retail merchandise from a single location (about $400 on the street), and if they are caught know at most it was just a ticket normally for only a couple of hundred dollars. The professionals did not fight us, and just saw that as the "cost of doing business", as they could easily steal well over $1,000 a day. If they get caught they get the ticket and pay the fine, it did not matter. Get caught once, get caught 25 times, it was the same fine.

But under 36, repeat offenders get felony convictions. Bakersfield already has one now, a guy with six prior convictions was caught stealing from a Target. So what would have been just another ticket now has him going on trial for felony theft.


And there are already reports that is a rude awakening for many thieves in California. And I almost wish I was still doing LP in California, as that will be hilarious to see. People with a half dozen or more slap on the wrist convictions suddenly realizing that they are now facing a felony conviction and real jail time.




The reason this all got out of control was never the raising of the total to $950, nor reducing the first offense to a ticket. The problem was always that they removed the repeat offender penalties, which allowed theft to grow out of control.
 
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Proposition 36 passing will not change anything unless radical Leftist prosecutors are replaced also.

In this I completely agree also.

I did Loss Prevention for about two years in California. And even though I was assaulted and still managed to detain the individual over 6 times, in not a single instance did the DA ever prosecute them for that.

At most, that raises the crime from petty theft to robbery. At a minimum, it should still be assault. But nope, in not a single case was the individual ever prosecuted for more than the petty theft.

And the way California tends to release petty criminals like this with little to no jail time, I honestly do not expect most to spend very long in jail after their trial. However, they will at that point have a felony hanging over their heads. Decide to leave California and go to say Nevada or Oregon to try it again, they already have a felony conviction. And in many states like Idaho and Texas, they will not play games if an out-of-state felon comes in and breaks the law in their state.

But at a minimum, they will most likely be sitting their butts in jail until their trial. Because more than once I have caught somebody, the police came and gave them a ticket and they go on their way. Only to be seen or caught at another store 20 miles away doing the exact same thing.
 
Prop 47 (which was passed in 2014) downgraded most thefts from felonies to misdemeanors if the amount stolen was under $950. Prop 36 effectively reverses Prop 47 and smash-n-grab crimes can once again be prosecuted as felonies and are now eligible for Three Strikes protocols.

Clarification. The issue was never raising felony theft to $950. The professionals know exactly how much merchandise they have, and will be careful to never go over the amount for a felony. Be it $500 or $950. And I had dozens of stops that came in at between $925 but under $950. One actually came out to $947 and change.

No, the real problem was that Prop 47 removed all penalties for repeat offenders. Most people are law abiding, and those that give into temptation and start to steal on occasion are not the problem. I've caught hundreds of them, and most are absolutely mortified by the process. Especially if they go to jail (even if it is just a "catch and release" by the cops). The majority of those will likely learn their lesson and not steal again. I know this first hand, as I was caught shoplifting at 14. I had been doing it for over a year before then, but that one arrest was enough to make me stop.

Before Prop 47, the penalties were graduated. Get caught once, up to 6 months in jail and up to a $1,000 fine. Get caught a second time, up to a year in jail and $2,000 fine. Get caught a third time, $5,000 fine and a felony conviction with up to two years in jail. Under Prop 36, this is what has returned. So now all those that had multiple slap on the wrist tickets are actually looking at instant felony charges the first time they are caught again.

And that is what the entire problem was in Prop 47. By removing any increased punishments for repeat offenders, it basically gave them the green light to keep doing it over and over again.


The above is a perfect example. That was a professional crew of 4-6 individuals. One was the "booster" who actually took the merchandise. One other went into the store with him and would act overly suspicious to get employees to watch him and not the actual thief. And a third inside, when given the notice would go and flag down the van to come to the door and be ready. And their product was always the same thing, Red Bull.

Now while all of the crew was black, the "Booster" was actually Cambodian, Torn Saelee. And they had a system they used for months. They were from Oakland, and would rent a van and hop on a freeway. Hitting multiple grocery stores within 1 mile of an off-ramp for on average $900 in Red Bull. And simply follow a freeway hitting multiple stores in a single day. We called him the "Asian Red Bull Bandit", and were tracking him for months. And even though they were from Oakland, they would hit stores as far away as Chico and Modesto.

I caught him in a suburb of Sacramento (Elk Grove), with about $930 in Red Bull. When the cops arrived told them about the long list of thefts they had done, but he still got a ticket and was free to walk out the door. And less than an hour later they hit another store in West Sacramento.

And realize that in that one arrest above, they had $4,700 in product in their van. That is likely around 50 individual cases of shoplifting in a single day. And their penalty?

Every single one of them pled guilty to a single charge of petty theft.

That's it, that was California under Prop 47. Now hopefully that will start to change.
 
who in their right minds thought it was a good idea to begin with ? geeeeeeeeeeeesh
 


“Bitch, new laws.”

Awwww.
 
who in their right minds thought it was a good idea to begin with ?

Most Californians, back in 2014. Prop 47 passed with 60% of the voters approving it.

It was promised that it would save the taxpayers millions of dollars by reducing the overcrowding in prisons. Both by no longer incarcerating low-level offenders, and decriminalizing small levels of drug possession. But as typical for the crazy Liberal ideas, it passed primarily because of the votes from the big cities. Most of the state voted against it.

300px-2014_California_Proposition_47_results_map.svg.png


It even retroactively affected people who were already convicted or serving time, seeing many convictions reduced from felonies to misdemeanors. And the tax savings were promised to be spent on "programs to keep people out of prisons". Of course, it had other effects as well, such as removing the felony crime of "Grand Theft Auto", if the thief could argue that the value of the vehicle stolen was under $950. And yes, that is still on the books because the legislature in that state confirmed it. Steal a junker worth only $800, it's only a misdemeanor.

That is standard for California. The state always promises to spend the money saved or earned from things like this on certain programs, that never materialize. The multiple tax hikes on cigarettes were to be spent on education to stop kids from smoking. The multiple gas taxes were to improve roads. This was to be spent on outreach programs, none of which ever happens. Any money saved or raised simply goes into the General Fund and is spent by the legislatures however they want. And even though this was passed as a way to reduce overcrowding in prisons, the prisons in the state are more overcrowded than ever.

Made worse by since that law passed in 2014, eighteen State Prisons have been closed as well as 22 Conservation Camps intended to support the California Department of Forestry. And two of those were closed this year, six others last year. At the exact same time the state was getting sued for prison overcrowding and releasing almost all non-violent offenders because they are claiming they do not have enough space in the prisons. They also ended the agreements they had with four out of state prisons for handing a number of overflow prisoners.

That is typical for the brain-dead of California. Somebody promises them that decriminalizing and eliminating incarceration will make things better, and many of them just believe it. Kinda like how Oakland had lowering crime rates for years, so decided to "defund the police". And afterwards were screaming when crime rates went out of control.
 
Most Californians, back in 2014. Prop 47 passed with 60% of the voters approving it.

It was promised that it would save the taxpayers millions of dollars by reducing the overcrowding in prisons. Both by no longer incarcerating low-level offenders, and decriminalizing small levels of drug possession. But as typical for the crazy Liberal ideas, it passed primarily because of the votes from the big cities. Most of the state voted against it.

300px-2014_California_Proposition_47_results_map.svg.png


It even retroactively affected people who were already convicted or serving time, seeing many convictions reduced from felonies to misdemeanors. And the tax savings were promised to be spent on "programs to keep people out of prisons". Of course, it had other effects as well, such as removing the felony crime of "Grand Theft Auto", if the thief could argue that the value of the vehicle stolen was under $950. And yes, that is still on the books because the legislature in that state confirmed it. Steal a junker worth only $800, it's only a misdemeanor.

That is standard for California. The state always promises to spend the money saved or earned from things like this on certain programs, that never materialize. The multiple tax hikes on cigarettes were to be spent on education to stop kids from smoking. The multiple gas taxes were to improve roads. This was to be spent on outreach programs, none of which ever happens. Any money saved or raised simply goes into the General Fund and is spent by the legislatures however they want. And even though this was passed as a way to reduce overcrowding in prisons, the prisons in the state are more overcrowded than ever.

Made worse by since that law passed in 2014, eighteen State Prisons have been closed as well as 22 Conservation Camps intended to support the California Department of Forestry. And two of those were closed this year, six others last year. At the exact same time the state was getting sued for prison overcrowding and releasing almost all non-violent offenders because they are claiming they do not have enough space in the prisons. They also ended the agreements they had with four out of state prisons for handing a number of overflow prisoners.

That is typical for the brain-dead of California. Somebody promises them that decriminalizing and eliminating incarceration will make things better, and many of them just believe it. Kinda like how Oakland had lowering crime rates for years, so decided to "defund the police". And afterwards were screaming when crime rates went out of control.
Ah yes. The old bait and switch scheme the electorate always falls for. It happens in most states in the country. I wish someone would compile a report of every time the state legislators promise of saving us money turns out to be a disaster. If one of these hair-brained schemes is rejected then break out the crying towels with fears of doom and gloom or some other tear jerker tragedy.
 
Liberalism

I see it as less than that, and more "brain dead liberalism".

Prop 47 likely could have worked, except for one small problem. By removing all of the repeat offender aspects of the law, they removed any real deterrent on criminals from simply abusing the system and stealing over and over again.

Having penalties for breaking the law are deterrents that work for most people. Get caught, and it is something they do not want to do again because of the penalties. And I can understand the reasoning between taking it easy on first time offenders. But the problem is when everybody is treated like a first time offender every single time. That is where repeat offender clauses are so important in effective deterrence. That each time they violate the law again, the penalties are ramped up. So if they do not learn after the first or second time, then they end up doing real time and paying real penalties.

The same with drugs. I can actually see giving a first time offender caught with a joint a choice between county jail and a drug diversion program. That's cool, a lot of people will learn their lesson after that. But when you've caught somebody ten times for the same offense, obviously the diversion is not working on them so you need to do something else. Maybe six months in county jail will work. And if they are caught again, a year in county jail.

In so many cases like this, the problem was not in trying something "liberal", it was removing all of the penalties if they continued to break the law repeatedly. That is where the "brain dead" comes in.
 
I don't like this part
It also comes with no new funding source for the mandatory treatment of drug offenders, who can still be sent to prison if they fail to complete drug treatment, according to Cal Matters.
but of course it all comes at a price and look who made it about their bottom line
Another criticism of Prop 36 were the sources of much of its funding. Big box stores like Walmart were among the major financial backers of Prop 36—some argued that the retailers were only concerned about their bottom lines and not true criminal sentencing reform.
Please know, I am not against having criminals be held accountable for their actions. That goes for all criminals, btw.
 
Ah yes. The old bait and switch scheme the electorate always falls for.

And this is common in California.

I still remember the 1978 California Taxpayer Revolt. Where taxes in the state were increasing so fast and new taxes added all the time, that the people of the state had enough. And passed Proposition 13, which put an end to it for a while.

It reduced the rate of property tax increases to no more than 1% per year, and required voter approval to have any new taxes created or current taxes raised. And that worked for a while, which is why vehicle registration in the state is still around $35. But then they realized that "fees" are not taxes, and the legislature started to add in fees to everything. That is why even though vehicle registration is still $35, you are not getting out without paying $300 or more, mostly in fees. And they have stuck them onto damned near everything, from electronic displays.

Even used ones, as I discovered when I had a computer store in that state. If I bought a used computer display, I had to pay a "disposal fee", and assess yet another one to the purchaser. So the state is literally collecting the same fee multiple times for the same item.

And twice, they tried to increase the gas tax by calling it a fee. And when the citizens revolted, they actually concocted a ballot measure that was convoluted, and convinced people to actually give the state the right to raise taxes whenever they wanted without voter input. Largely eliminating Prop 13 from 1978. Now even though California ranks number 15 in the nation for gasoline production, they have the most expensive gas in the country. And the State Government for years has been trying to blame the oil industry for that, which is why many refineries are starting to shut down and leave the state.

Their latest boneheaded decision? To mandate that they maintain a certain amount of the California Only blend of gasoline on hand at all times. And yes, California mandates a special blend of gasoline that can be sold in no other states. And if they have an in-state shortage, they can not use gas of any other blend intended for other states. Because of that and other issues, refineries are starting to leave the state so they do not have to comply with that nonsense.
 
but of course it all comes at a price and look who made it about their bottom line

But, when Prop 47 was passed it was promised this would be done with the savings from having to incarcerate less people.

Are they actually refusing to admit that those savings never happened? Or that if they did they did not do as they promised with the money they saved?

As for the stores, all levels of retail were having fits because of Prop 47. It hit the big box stores harder, but even small corner stores were having problems. And a lot of retail districts are now largely vacant because they simply could not stay in business because of the theft. And those who are left have largely locked up their merchandise in cabinets storewide.
 
But, when Prop 47 was passed it was promised this would be done with the savings from having to incarcerate less people.

Are they actually refusing to admit that those savings never happened? Or that if they did they did not do as they promised with the money they saved?

As for the stores, all levels of retail were having fits because of Prop 47. It hit the big box stores harder, but even small corner stores were having problems. And a lot of retail districts are now largely vacant because they simply could not stay in business because of the theft. And those who are left have largely locked up their merchandise in cabinets storewide.
Lots of NIMBY all around.
 
When the state conducts an analysis of ballot measures, they only measure the direct impact on public funding, such as the costs for law enforcement or imprisonment. But they never measure the impact on the private sector: the jobs and sometimes the sales taxes lost by businesses fleeing cities to avoid rampant thievery.
 
I witnessed this myself recently at a Target store in our area. They had a security guard present, but he was powerless to do anything.

Well, today's passage of Prop 36 changes that.
Probably not, unless things have changed in the last 4 years, Target Corporation prohibits the use of force to stop thief. We had to stand there and watch them flee. Most are on video and are referred to the police if it was a major or repeat offender. Quite a few have records, are known to the cops and get caught.
But nice rant.... ✌️
 
I witnessed this myself recently at a Target store in our area. They had a security guard present, but he was powerless to do anything.

Well, today's passage of Prop 36 changes that.

Actually, it will have little to no change on that.

Odds are, he le legally could not do anything because he did not actually witness the theft.

Having done Loss Prevention professionally, most security guards simply do not have all that is requires legally in order to actually stop somebody. In this case it is them picking up the merchandise, and making sure they did not pay before trying to exit. Because these involve misdemeanors, the requirements are actually very specific. The only time a security guard can actually "do something" without actually witnessing a crime is if it is a felony, and there is reasonable cause to believe that individual had done it.

Prop 36 will not change that at all, that is simply how the "Powers of Arrest" work. And it is generally not the job of uniform security to actually stop shoplifters, they are a visual deterrent. And Target will also have their own in-house Loss Prevention team on duty at all times. And as such, the guard may actually have specific instructions to not intervene, as that can prevent LP from arresting them. One thing we sometimes had battles with was uniformed security, and getting them to understand that if they see us anywhere near a suspect, to just fade the hell away and not spook them. And if they are by the door to just let them go, our point of stop was in the vestibule beyond that, not actually inside the store itself.
 
Target Corporation prohibits the use of force to stop thief.

Most major corporations are "hands off stop", because of multiple lawsuits. Is why I was glad most of my time in LP was with one of the few companies that was still "hands on".
 
Drug crimes are also lumped in, I already cited it in #41. I don’t care about the theft part. No need to try and convince me, I’m fine with it.

I’m aware of how it was branded, and how it would have been branded if California voted against it. When I read it on the ballot, it specifically mentioned including drug crimes. I wish they’d left that part out.
I disagree and think it properly belongs in the proposition. Drug abuse is a major driver of petty theft. And the relapse rate for mandatory rehab is 96%. Clearly not working.
 
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Most major corporations are "hands off stop", because of multiple lawsuits. Is why I was glad most of my time in LP was with one of the few companies that was still "hands on".
That and video makes the job a lot easier. Gives the DA some solid evidence and like you said, no blowback... ✌️
 
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