But What If You're Wrong ...

[Occam's Razor]

I'm not closing my mind to the possibility.
I don't know anyone who'd claimed to have had seen any UFOs....but I personally know people who'd claimed to have had supernatural encounters.
I have had my own experience(s) as well but nothing like seeing a ghost.

I've had personal experiences that had cemented my faith in God.

That's cool, because religion is a VERY personal thing. The only soul you are responsible for saving is your own.

Which of the 800 branches of Christianity do you belong to? Apparently not one that insists that we are alone in the universe.

This may be a heretical thought experiment, but if I were God, and I wanted as many of my children to find their way home as possible, and to do good works along the way... I would provide more than one path up the mountain.

What God would declare that the only path to heaven is through his son, and then allow a millennia and a half to pass before the last areas of the world heard the news? What kind of monster would condemn millions of souls for ignorance because your God couldn't see his way to send Angels to every corner of the globe?

If that's the God passing judgement on who gets into heaven... I'm good with oblivion.

 

[roguenuke]

That's cool, because religion is a VERY personal thing. The only soul you are responsible for saving is your own.

Which of the 800 branches of Christianity do you belong to? Apparently not one that insists that we are alone in the universe.

This may be a heretical thought experiment, but if I were God, and I wanted as many of my children to find their way home as possible, and to do good works along the way... I would provide more than one path up the mountain.

What God would declare that the only path to heaven is through his son, and then allow a millennia and a half to pass before the last areas of the world heard the news? What kind of monster would condemn millions of souls for ignorance because your God couldn't see his way to send Angels to every corner of the globe?

If that's the God passing judgement on who gets into heaven... I'm good with oblivion.

There are over 40K denominations of Christianity.

 

[Occam's Razor]

There are over 40K denominations of Christianity.

Wow, ok.

 

[tosca1]

That's cool, because religion is a VERY personal thing. The only soul you are responsible for saving is your own.

Which of the 800 branches of Christianity do you belong to? Apparently not one that insists that we are alone in the universe.

I'm a Baptist. But a non-denominational Pastor was instrumental in my being born-again. The path that led me to that was quite long, but to make the story short, I "accidentally" stumbled on this pastor on tv, at a time when I can no longer ignore, and was trying desperately to fill a void - or a "hunger" deep inside. I asked to belong to that congregation to be baptized (I wanted to be baptized), and was going to follow the ministry on tv.....but he advised me to find a church near me that I can worship with them.

I find that the Baptist (in my area) tries to adhere to the New Testament as possible.
Numbers of denominations isn't surprising at all - they could number for millions for all I care, doesn't make any difference - that's been repeatedly stated in the Bible: wolves in sheep's clothings. false teachings.
Now I don't want to get into about which translation is correct - there are separate threads for that.



Christians are not here to save the world - not in the sense that we try to convert people to our belief. That's a common misconception so many have about Christians. Our commission is simply to spread the Gospel or the Good News. We're not even supposed to force anyone to listen.



I don't think it explicitly confirms anywhere in the Bible that we are alone in the universe.
That being said, I won't be surprised either to find out that we are.

Mankind exploration and understanding of the heavens though, is part of the heritage given to mankind, imho.
God made mankind ruler of the earth,


Genesis 28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


and the Scriptures also suggests that even the heavens are subject to mankind.



Psalm 8
3
When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[c]

5
You have made them a little lower than the angels[e]
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6
You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:


----------------------------



Imho, science was created for the sole purpose of glorification of God (and the heavens provide that), and to fulfill His will.

What we do know from reading the Bible is that the fate of the universe is forever linked to God's timetable for mankind on earth.

 

[tosca1]

T
This may be a heretical thought experiment, but if I were God,

But you're not God. We don't have the full capacity to think like God, or to even understand how He thinks. Therefore, making assumptions based on very limited understanding would be pointless.

and I wanted as many of my children to find their way home as possible, and to do good works along the way... I would provide more than one path up the mountain.

There is only one path to the mountain.
Through Jesus Christ. You can do all the good works in this world - but if you don't have Jesus Christ - that's all for nothing.


Jesus Christ is the admission ticket.

He is the One and Only path! That's been clearly, and explicitly stipulated.
We may agree or disagree with this rule - but then again, we're not the ones calling the shot.



OBEDIENCE is very big in the Scriptures.

The Bibles also shows that in so many cases, an act of God is usually preceded by an act of obedience.

 

[tosca1]

What God would declare that the only path to heaven is through his son, and then allow a millennia and a half to pass before the last areas of the world heard the news? What kind of monster would condemn millions of souls for ignorance because your God couldn't see his way to send Angels to every corner of the globe?

If that's the God passing judgement on who gets into heaven... I'm good with oblivion.

Are we sure the other option is oblivion?
Also, we're talking, eternity.




Anyway, that's your choice. Free will.


I hope it's merely said as an act of bravado in a forum, because when you really analyze the full price to be paid for that choice.......


.......it reminds me of someone cutting his own nose just to spite his face.

 

[Manc Skipper]

There's no reason to suppose that after death will be any different to before conception. How was it for you?

 

[Occam's Razor]

But you're not God.

We don't have the full capacity to think like God, or to even understand how He thinks. Therefore, making assumptions based on very limited understanding would be pointless.

No assumptions... I stated what I would do if I were God to make good on stated desire to have as many of my children find their way home as possible. I also stated that I want no part of any God that condemns half a planet because he didn't think to spread the word to all the world of a path to salvation.

There is no other area of my life where I would trust the oral history of illiterate goat herders from 2000 years ago to direct any part of my life. Not one word of any gospel was written by the hand of God, save perhaps the Ten Commandments. No mention of his son there. Every other word, old and New Testament was written by the fallible, corrupt, sinning hands of humans regardless of how divinely the message was received.

There is only one path to the mountain.
Through Jesus Christ. You can do all the good works in this world - but if you don't have Jesus Christ - that's all for nothing.


Jesus Christ is the admission ticket.

No, that is only your belief.

 

[tosca1]

No assumptions... I stated what I would do if I were God to make good on stated desire to have as many of my children find their way home as possible.

Oh. Okay.

I also stated that I want no part of any God that condemns half a planet because he didn't think to spread the word to all the world of a path to salvation.

Your choice.

There is no other area of my life where I would trust the oral history of illiterate goat herders from 2000 years ago to direct any part of my life. Not one word of any gospel was written by the hand of God, save perhaps the Ten Commandments. No mention of his son there. Every other word, old and New Testament was written by the fallible, corrupt, sinning hands of humans regardless of how divinely the message was received.

Your view.

No, that is only your belief.

Yes, that's my belief. That's how a Christian must believe - according to the New Testamnet.

 

[tosca1]

There's no reason to suppose that after death will be any different to before conception. How was it for you?

Life and death are opposites. Beginning and the end.

There are many, many of those who'd died that had claimed to have seen something before they were brought back.
On the other hand, as far as I know, no one had mentioned anything remembering how it was like before being concieved.

So....where did you base that supposition?

 

[Athrawan]

You err, not understanding the meaning of "predetermine". It means " to decide (something) before it happens or in advance". I repeat my point: knowing how a choice will turn out, IS NOT the same thing as deciding it before it happens.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Life and death are the start and finish of existence. Why should the outsides be different?
They weren't dead, or they wouldn't be here. They describe their perception of the effects of lack of oxygen and brain shutdown, strained through the filter of their religious belief. Christians differ from Hindus, Shintoists or Santerians in interpreting the side-effects.

 

[roguenuke]

Life and death are opposites. Beginning and the end.

There are many, many of those who'd died that had claimed to have seen something before they were brought back.
On the other hand, as far as I know, no one had mentioned anything remembering how it was like before being concieved.

So....where did you base that supposition?

There are in fact people who claim to be able to see their past lives, just like those who claim to see something during a near death experience. There is no way to verify either claim.

 

[tosca1]

There are in fact people who claim to be able to see their past lives, just like those who claim to see something during a near death experience. There is no way to verify either claim.

Get with the context! :doh He was comparing the "oblivion" prior to conception - suggesting it's similar to what is assumed as "oblivion" after physical death!

 

[Radical]

I didn't choose it because I like it. I accept it because it's the only rational conclusion I can come to.

Our brains are big. You don't think that the brain can create it's own stimuli? After evaluating a given scenario, the brain might be able to understand "the stimulus is encouraging me to do this" and then edit the stimulus to fit a broader, more coherent picture. The action would still be determined, since the brain doesn't usurp the physical laws, but it is also "free will" because the human brain is powerful enough to do a thorough analysis of external stimuli, thus creating it's own stimuli from within.

Maybe.

 

[Radical]

Also, while I'm here, there is a minority of Christians that also believe "before I was conceived I did not exist and after my death I won't exist".

We still believe in Resurrection, so we live again, but it's only because we get a new body, not because we have a super-power'd spirit.

 

[tosca1]

Life and death are the start and finish of existence. Why should the outsides be different?

Why shouldn't they? Beginning and the end. If starting life and ending life are opposites - why would you assume both won't be different?

Don't we usually get rid of things that's already done its purpose, and has no more value? Do we see them similar in value - one that's about to give its purpose, and one that's already given and has nothing more to give! Do you see a new battery and a dead battery as being the same?

Why would it be any different?

They weren't dead, or they wouldn't be here. They describe their perception of the effects of lack of oxygen and brain shutdown, strained through the filter of their religious belief. Christians differ from Hindus, Shintoists or Santerians in interpreting the side-effects.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Unrepresented]

Our brains are big. You don't think that the brain can create it's own stimuli? After evaluating a given scenario, the brain might be able to understand "the stimulus is encouraging me to do this" and then edit the stimulus to fit a broader, more coherent picture. The action would still be determined, since the brain doesn't usurp the physical laws, but it is also "free will" because the human brain is powerful enough to do a thorough analysis of external stimuli, thus creating it's own stimuli from within.

Maybe.

Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. We're just a massive recirculation of the same star dust, including any stimuli that we have the illusion of perceiving as novel.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Yes it does, but you seem to have ongoing difficulty with reality.

 

[roguenuke]

Get with the context! :doh He was comparing the "oblivion" prior to conception - suggesting it's similar to what is assumed as "oblivion" after physical death!

And I was saying that it is just as possible that there is no oblivion prior to conception as there being no oblivion after death.

 

[Radical]

Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. We're just a massive recirculation of the same star dust, including any stimuli that we have the illusion of perceiving as novel.

Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, yet my claim is that stimuli is transformed within the mind. What is the source of this transformation? Certainly it is the subject in question. The transformation is predetermined, but that does not fully explain the picture. The rational capacity allows for some pretty amazing stuff. I am a chunk of star dust, I analyze myself and understand I am not well-organized. I am unhealthy, lets say. The chunk of star dust understands unhealthiness as a detriment and goes and works out and eats healthy and blah blah blah. You can argue that it's all predetermined, and I wouldn't disagree. But you can't argue that this chunk of star dust does not have a will. And in this scenario, the only external stimuli has been myself.

 

[iangb]

Unless you're in the same field as those scientists who'd given those evidences, your validation is definitely.....not required.

Physicist here. In most of those cases, I am in the same field.

What's more, the wonderful thing about scientific evidence is that anyone can criticize it. Science should be judged on how correct it is, not on the authority of the person stating it - that's more of a theistic worldview.

 

[Unrepresented]

Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, yet my claim is that stimuli is transformed within the mind. What is the source of this transformation? Certainly it is the subject in question. The transformation is predetermined, but that does not fully explain the picture. The rational capacity allows for some pretty amazing stuff. I am a chunk of star dust, I analyze myself and understand I am not well-organized. I am unhealthy, lets say. The chunk of star dust understands unhealthiness as a detriment and goes and works out and eats healthy and blah blah blah. You can argue that it's all predetermined, and I wouldn't disagree. But you can't argue that this chunk of star dust does not have a will. And in this scenario, the only external stimuli has been myself.

The stimulus created is not an autonomous, independent act. It's created by the matter and actions preceding us and the response is created by matter and actions preceding us.

 

[Quag]

:roll:

Your logic is flawed. Knowing how things will turn out doesn't necessarily mean that God is hands-on on everyone's actions.

That wasnt my or anyone elses claim. Hands on hands off an omniscient/omnipotent God percludes freewill.
If God created everything and knew exactly how everything would turn out then there is no free will.
No ifs buts or maybes.
LOGIC dictates that it is impossible for an omiscient omnipotent enity to NOT be responsible for everyhting that happens with their creation.
This isnt even a debate. The only thing to debate is whether or not God is omnisicent and omnipotent.

:roll:

But this "tube" isn't a straightforward downward tube. It has many forks, and dips, and turns.

That marble could go anywhere within that tube, and it doesn't have to follow the water's path.

You may know that the marble and the water will end up eventually in a pail.......

And either God knows about all those forks and their effect on the amrble when he created the tube, or God is not omniscient.

........... but the long travel to that pail could be different in so many ways for all the marbles and water that are poured down that tube.

God knows which paths you'll take as you travel down the tube.....before you even know it yourself. Check out the dinner analogy I gave to Manc.

Long way short way, it doesnt matter, if God is omnsicient/omnipotent then God knowes and determined the outcome beforehand.

Are we clear now?

Not in the slightest you appear to be claiming that God is both omnisicent/omnipotent and not at the same time.
Sorry you cant have it both ways, pick one and accept what that means to your faith.

 

[tosca1]

Physicist here. In most of those cases, I am in the same field.

What's more, the wonderful thing about scientific evidence is that anyone can criticize it. Science should be judged on how correct it is, not on the authority of the person stating it - that's more of a theistic worldview.

Sorry, I'm involved with quite a few posters....please refresh my memory why I said your validation isn't required.