But What If You're Wrong ...

[joG]

Then God is not omniscient, as this could only happen if God didnt know exactly what you were going to do at creation.



Yet you have come to the conclusion that your particular version of Christianity is the correct one and there is no evidence to prove God even exists, let alone your particular version of God.

Actually, I don't think that one can apply logic or science to religious beliefs. Maybe some day. But right now? It is as infeasible as it would have been to expect Galileo to have fathomed quantum physics.

 

[Quag]

Actually, I don't think that one can apply logic or science to religious beliefs. Maybe some day. But right now? It is as infeasible as it would have been to expect Galileo to have fathomed quantum physics.

In a sense yes you are right, God is not bound by the laws of physics.
However God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent and still allow us free will.
That can only happen if God is at most nearly omnisicent and nearly omnipotent.

 

[joG]

In a sense yes you are right, God is not bound by the laws of physics.
However God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent and still allow us free will.
That can only happen if God is at most nearly omnisicent and nearly omnipotent.

You mean, like Schrödinger's cat in the box cannot be alive and dead at the same time? Some physicists think so.

 

[Quag]

You mean, like Schrödinger's cat in the box cannot be alive and dead at the same time? Some physicists think so.

Not sure how you got there from my post.

 

[roguenuke]

You mean, like Schrödinger's cat in the box cannot be alive and dead at the same time? Some physicists think so.

If they really think that (although I think you are mistaken a philosophical statement with a statement of reality), then they are idiots (and yes even physicists can be idiots).

 

[tosca1]

Then God is not omniscient, as this could only happen if God didnt know exactly what you were going to do at creation.

You seem to be arguing that God is both omniscient and not at the same time.
If God creates the universe and the rules and knows how everything will turn out then God has decided all actions that follow. The only way for there to be free will is if there are things God doesnt know.

:roll:

Your logic is flawed. Knowing how things will turn out doesn't necessarily mean that God is hands-on on everyone's actions.

If you take a tube and angle it down towards a glass, then roll a marble down the tube it WILL go into the glass, you created the situation and know what is goign to happen. The only way for the marble not to enter the glass is if you move the tube away from the glass or if there is some other factor unknown to you such as an obstruction in the tube. Now God cannot have made an error in placing the tube or allowing a defect to obstruct the tube as God is omniscient and omnipotent.

:roll:

But this "tube" isn't a straightforward downward tube. It has many forks, and dips, and turns.

That marble could go anywhere within that tube, and it doesn't have to follow the water's path.

You may know that the marble and the water will end up eventually in a pail.......

........... but the long travel to that pail could be different in so many ways for all the marbles and water that are poured down that tube.

God knows which paths you'll take as you travel down the tube.....before you even know it yourself. Check out the dinner analogy I gave to Manc.



Are we clear now?

 

[tosca1]

If he knows what will happen, then nothing I can do can change that. If I can't change it, then I don't have free will.

He knows you WILL eat steak for dinner tonight.....you're the one who chose to have the steak for dinner. That's your free will.

If you change your mind at the last minute and decided to eat fish instead (your free will), He knows you'll change your mind at the last minute and you'll eat fish instead.

He knows what you'll do before you even know it yourself. That's all there is to it.

How does that affect your free will?

 

[roguenuke]

He knows you WILL eat steak for dinner tonight.....you're the one who chose to have the steak for dinner. That's your free will.

If you change your mind at the last minute and decided to eat fish instead (your free will), He knows you'll change your mind at the last minute and you'll eat fish instead.

He knows what you'll do before you even know it yourself. That's all there is to it.

How does that affect your free will?

Not if "He" knows that you will pick steak. It indicates that you can't change your mind and choose fish because that would make God wrong. When does God know? Did He always know you would change your mind and eat fish instead of your initial choice of steak? If so, then that is not a choice, not free will.

 

[Unrepresented]

Nope. Not necessarily. He knows everything....but that doesn't mean He was hands-on on everything.
Knowledge does not automatically translates into active involvement.

You're trying to fit our very limited knowledge of God into a mold, and thinking that's the sum of God. You can't. We can't.
We don't know or understand much about Him....except what He wanted us to know and understand.

If you've created the universe, there's nothing more "hands on" left. You've built everything.

You've set into every motion into event. You've created every piece of matter that will be set into action. You've created all energy that will be used to move that matter and shaped its motion.

Everything.

 

[tosca1]

Not if "He" knows that you will pick steak. It indicates that you can't change your mind and choose fish because that would make God wrong.

EH??? :mrgreen:

He didn't make him choose the steak! It was Manc who'd chosen to eat steak! :doh God knew that Manc was going to choose the steak!

When does God know? Did He always know you would change your mind and eat fish instead of your initial choice of steak? If so, then that is not a choice, not free will.

It doesn't matter when God knows, or if He'd always known. It was still Manc who'd chosen to eat steak!

 

[Unrepresented]

Not necessarily. He may've a specific task or role for each and everyone of us....but nothing suggests that we cannot indulge in our free will outside of that task/role. Is it the same for everyone? We don't know.

My point is: we cannot make any conclusion if we don't have enough knowledge. That's simply common sense.

Every. Single. Action. Ever. would be subject to an all knowing, all powerful creator. That's what being all powerful, and all knowing produces. It produces the exact product you want. No surprises. No variables.

Anything besides the creator having "free will" would mean that the all knowing creator didn't know an outcome from creation, or an all powerful creator couldn't create properly. Both significantly undermine their respective definitions.

 

[tosca1]

If you've created the universe, there's nothing more "hands on" left. You've built everything.

You've set into every motion into event. You've created every piece of matter that will be set into action. You've created all energy that will be used to move that matter and shaped its motion.

Everything.

So what if He created everything?

 

[tosca1]

Every. Single. Action. Ever. would be subject to an all knowing, all powerful creator. That's what being all powerful, and all knowing produces. It produces the exact product you want. No surprises. No variables.

Anything besides the creator having "free will" would mean that the all knowing creator didn't know an outcome from creation, or an all powerful creator couldn't create properly. Both significantly undermine their respective definitions.

:roll:

Your logic is terribly flawed.

Refer to the steak (Manc), and the marble-down-the-tube (Quag) analogies. It can't get any clearer than those. What more can I say?

 

[Unrepresented]

So what if He created everything?

If an all knowing, all powerful being created everything there is nothing else that can influence the universe. No outside chance, no random luck, no "free will."

 

[Unrepresented]

:roll:

Your logic is terribly flawed.

Refer to the steak (Manc), and the marble-down-the-tube (Quag) analogies. It can't get any clearer than those. What more can I say?

You're rejecting logic because you don't like the implication, not because it's unsound.

 

[roguenuke]

EH??? :mrgreen:

He didn't make him choose the steak! It was Manc who'd chosen to eat steak! :doh God knew that Manc was going to choose the steak!

It doesn't matter when God knows, or if He'd always known. It was still Manc who'd chosen to eat steak!

It does matter when God knows. If He always knew that someone would pick steak first, then change their mind and pick fish to ultimately have for dinner on a particular night, then there is no way that the person could then choose on that night to simply stick with steak on that night or choose chicken or even not eat anything at all, because it would make God wrong.

 

[Manc Skipper]

EH??? :mrgreen:

He didn't make him choose the steak! It was Manc who'd chosen to eat steak! :doh God knew that Manc was going to choose the steak!






It doesn't matter when God knows, or if He'd always known. It was still Manc who'd chosen to eat steak!

Then I couldn't choose fish, because God already knew I was going to eat steak.

 

[jet57]

All I'm saying is for you to consider the :" What If?" and of course the odds vs. the payoff.

Well, the 'what if' won't serve you at all here. It's a question to ponder, yet will bring no result of any kind. My formula has always been: "When I die, one of two things will happen (and only these two are possible BTW) - something or nothing". No matter which way it goes, I cannot change that outcome. So while I'm here, I choose to make it as comfortable as can be for myself and others I encounter.

 

[tosca1]

Not if "He" knows that you will pick steak. It indicates that you can't change your mind and choose fish because that would make God wrong. When does God know? Did He always know you would change your mind and eat fish instead of your initial choice of steak? If so, then that is not a choice, not free will.

What does "knowing" have to do with Manc's action?
Just because He knows what Manc will do doesn't change the fact that it was Manc who exercised his free will to eat the steak!
God just happens to know Manc will choose the steak, is all!

Why is that so hard to absorb? :lol:

 

[tosca1]

Then I couldn't choose fish, because God already knew I was going to eat steak.

Of course you can choose the fish.....except that instead of eating the steak, God knows that you'll choose the fish.

 

[tosca1]

It does matter when God knows. If He always knew that someone would pick steak first, then change their mind and pick fish to ultimately have for dinner on a particular night, then there is no way that the person could then choose on that night to simply stick with steak on that night or choose chicken or even not eat anything at all, because it would make God wrong.

No. Whatever Manc chooses won't make God wrong.
Steak or fish - God knows what he'll choose and end up having for dinner.

 

[tosca1]

Well, the 'what if' won't serve you at all here. It's a question to ponder, yet will bring no result of any kind. My formula has always been: "When I die, one of two things will happen (and only these two are possible BTW) - something or nothing". No matter which way it goes, I cannot change that outcome. So while I'm here, I choose to make it as comfortable as can be for myself and others I encounter.

When we die, how can "nothing" becomes an option to happen? No way. There's always something.
Obviously, when we die - we cease to do what any living person does. That's quite something.

Then, we start to rot. So, that's another something, isn't it?

 

[tosca1]

If an all knowing, all powerful being created everything there is nothing else that can influence the universe. No outside chance, no random luck, no "free will."

What is your understanding of free will?

 

[Manc Skipper]

Of course you can choose the fish.....except that instead of eating the steak, God knows that you'll choose the fish.

If god knew I would choose the fish, then what made him know I would choose the steak? If he knew all the time I would change my mind and choose the fish, then he knew I wouldn't choose the steak. I still had no choice. If he didn't know beforehand, why do you call him God?

 

[tosca1]

If we're created by something that is all knowing, that omniscient being will know what paths we'll travel. If we're created by something all powerful, that omnipotent being formed us to travel certain paths.

Being omnipotent - which means having unlimited power - God can choose to do whatever He wants.

Now, God had created everything, and along with that He'd given His laws and instructions on how we can end up in Heaven. Apparently, there are two destinations to choose from: eternal life or permanent death.

God already knows who among us will gain eternal life, and those who won't. It's not because of lack of free will. We're all given the choice, thus He'd given us fair warning. He just knows who among His creation will choose to accept and follow Him.


Why would He go to the trouble of creating those who won't be saved.....if there is no free will? If they don't get to choose?
What's the point in that?