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Bush Teleconference With Soldiers Staged

oldreliable67 said:
Thinker,



We can probably find some points of agreement in that statement.



But we part company with this one. Admittedly, it has been quite a long time since I was a part of the green machine. But, even in the mid-to-late 60s, when the Army was known as a miserable place populated mostly with disaffected draftees, I didn't find the above to be true. In fact, I will never forget the Sgt Major of my battalion in Vietnam commenting that having so many draftees actually had one significant beneficial impact on the Army: "these guys are not professional soldiers, they will speak their minds both to their superior officers and to the people back home. They add a huge amount of transparency to the goings' on in the Army and thats a good thing." Thats probably not a direct quote, its been too many years for that, but thats the gist of his remarks.

Has the Army changed since then? Absolutely. And most will agree, it has changed for the better. The fact that it is now an all-volunteer force is all the better for openness and transparency. If you don't believe it, just look at all the blogs from active duty military personnel, look at all the e-mails to the media that get published.

We are all shaped by our individual experiences. I was an enlisted man. I didn't feel deprived of any rights. Maybe you were an enlisted man as well and your experience was different.

No, I never enlisted. I know plenty and my father was in the military. I have many friends who enlisted though. I do think that my bias comes from how people follow a president who never saw combat and most of his cabinet never even enlisted actually demonize those who did. John Kerry, John McCain, and forgive me, the congressman who lost both legs in Vietnam. They opposed the administration and they painted them as cowards or crazy. Nobody likes to take orders from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I used to run a printing press. we had a foreman who never even touched ink. He had no clue what we were talking about and somehow we were supposed to respect him. It just didn't happen. He couldn't lead us because he didn't have the experience to understand our needs and challenges. Anyone who would have defended him I, and others, would have just called a suck-up and they weren't thinking about the good of the team.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Touche! Sorry for using a French word. Not everyone in the military is an officer though. There are more grunts than officers though. Tell me, when do grunts get to question their officers though? It would seem that the military never questions the President (on the whole). I understand you can't go into combat with doubt in your mission. But do you think every president is always right? I just happen to think that it is a great stratch to think that invading another country that hasn't attacked or threatening to attack you is hardly protecting your country. Where were Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq going to attack us? Nobody has ever had an answer to that one. Notice I am not against our action in Afghanistan. In fact, I think we should have invested more time, money, and troops into Afghanistan. I am not advocating cutting VA hospital's funding or veteran's benefits.


SNCO's question their officers all of the time. There is a difference between beliggerent discension and respectful leadership. Officers rely on the enlisted's experience to make many decisions. For example....A Commander's "intent" is the end result. He will pass that to his junior Officers. The junior Officers will then consult with the experience and decide a course of action to accomplish that intent. Also...you might find it interesting that the immediate leaders of this war in Iraq are NCO's (Sergeant's and Corporals). They are the Fire Team leaders and Squad Leaders.

Since when do we have to wait to be attacked to defend our people? When do we have to have an "excuse" to help others? Besides a few boat sinkings, did Germany attack us first?

Of course not every President is always right. Tell me one that has ever been always right? Despite mistakes made by President Bush, he is the first President to recognize the issues behind Islamic terrorism. He's made a bold move that military analysts have been screaming about since the Reagan years. I haven't come across one marine that disapproves of our Commander-in-Chief. I could say the complete opposite of a former President and Senator John Kerry. There is a difference between a President and a Commander-in-Chief.

And when I said "College educated", I meant the enlisted also.
 
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GySgt said:
Since when do we have to wait to be attacked to defend our people? When do we have to have an "excuse" to help others? Besides a few boat sinkings, did Germany attack us first?

QUOTE]

Those boat sinkings were an act of war. So yes, Germany did attack us first. Do we hold the exclusive license on pre-emptive attack? Should China take of Hong Kong? Should we attack China? Where do you draw the line? Many would say that the line would be at "imminent threat". I still do not know of a credible "imminent threat" from Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq. We were duped by our chickenhawk leaders into believing in boogeymen who really were no threat to us?

Of course we can help out other people and countries. Our leaders should just be honest about it. That was reason #1028 for going into Iraq though. They sure didn't send Powell to the UN to pose the case because the Iraqis needed help. It was another boogeyman than never existed.

P.S. I thought if you had a degree, you could sign up as an NCO.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
GySgt said:
Since when do we have to wait to be attacked to defend our people? When do we have to have an "excuse" to help others? Besides a few boat sinkings, did Germany attack us first?

QUOTE]

Those boat sinkings were an act of war. So yes, Germany did attack us first.
Germany also declared war on us 1st... :?
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
We were duped by our chickenhawk leaders into believing in boogeymen who really were no threat to us?
It was a pretty good debate until the decision to bring it down a notch...:roll:
 
cnredd said:
It was a pretty good debate until the decision to bring it down a notch...:roll:

Oh good. Redd, can you tell me where Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq was going to attack us? Or is the fact that nobody can answer these questions what brings it down a notch?
 
scottyz said:
independent_thinker2002 said:
Germany also declared war on us 1st... :?

So?

FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost - an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost - an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost - an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama had attacked our military on multiple occasions and we did nothing.

In the years since terrorists attacked us on our soil, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled Al-Qaeda, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a ruthless dictator who is now on trial by his abusers - not to mention numerous "famous" terrorists that have hundreds or thousands of murders on their bloodied hands.

Shame on our evil President.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Oh good. Redd, can you tell me where Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq was going to attack us? Or is the fact that nobody can answer these questions what brings it down a notch?


Again, Vietnam and Korea was about communism. We did not believe that we could stop Soviet Communism by attacking Moscow. We did it by holding the line in many different countries. Iraq is only one country in the Middle East where oppression is the "soup of the day." If the Middle East was more democratic instead of led by tyrants, dictators, and blasphemous Islamic Clerics, we would have far less Islamic extremists running around.

Now I'll ask you a question...since when do we need "justification" to help people? Do you think South Vietnam wanted the North's vision of statehood? How about South Korea? How about the victims of Saddam in Iraq?
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Oh good. Redd, can you tell me where Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq was going to attack us? Or is the fact that nobody can answer these questions what brings it down a notch?
Three points...

1) my name is NEVER capitalized...

2) It is not just us...If a country is under attack from another country or is agressive in its position, America believes in its right to defend that country...

If North Korea started marching through Seoul next week, I doubt the US would sit with its hands folded and watch silently...

3) You and I don't make the decisions....The President, with the consent of Congress, does...Go ahead and disagree...
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
GySgt said:
Since when do we have to wait to be attacked to defend our people? When do we have to have an "excuse" to help others? Besides a few boat sinkings, did Germany attack us first?

QUOTE]

Those boat sinkings were an act of war. So yes, Germany did attack us first. Do we hold the exclusive license on pre-emptive attack? Should China take of Hong Kong? Should we attack China? Where do you draw the line? Many would say that the line would be at "imminent threat". I still do not know of a credible "imminent threat" from Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq. We were duped by our chickenhawk leaders into believing in boogeymen who really were no threat to us?

Of course we can help out other people and countries. Our leaders should just be honest about it. That was reason #1028 for going into Iraq though. They sure didn't send Powell to the UN to pose the case because the Iraqis needed help. It was another boogeyman than never existed.

P.S. I thought if you had a degree, you could sign up as an NCO.[/QUOTE]

It's simple....we draw the line. The entire culturte of the Middle East is a threat to us and the western world. These zealots just don't decide that they are going to blow an American city. They are taught. They are preached to. They are desperate and feel an uncontrollable desire to lash out. Until this culture is given a chance to remove itself from oppression and outward blame, we will continue to see terrorism and a nuclear armed terrorist state will soon emerge. Iraq was every bit a part of his region.

You can't "sign" up to be an NCO. You sign up to be a Private or a 2nd Lieutenant. An NCO is between the ranks of "troop" and SNCO. I am a SNCO with a College Degree and I am currently still working and almost finished with another Degree. I will not stop until I reach my Masters in History.
 
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GySgt said:
scottyz said:
So?

FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost - an average of 112,500 per year.
Germany attacked our allies, our ships, piloted u-boats in the Gulf of Mexico and on our east coast, test flew long range bombers to our east coast....
 
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Gy, Germany attacked our civilian ships. The UN installed nuclear inspectors. I am not sure what your point is about Korea, Vietnam, or Bosnia is. As for Bosnia:

The Bosnian-Herzegovinian declaration of sovereignty in October of 1991, was followed by a referendum for independence from Yugoslavia in February 1992 boycotted by the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serbs. Serbia and Bosnian Serbs responded shortly thereafter with armed attacks on Bosnian-Herzegovinian Croats and Bosniaks aimed at partitioning the republic along ethnic lines and joining Serb-held areas. The UNPROFOR (UN Protection Force) was deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina in mid-1992. 1992 and 1993 saw the greatest bloodshed in Europe after 1945. In March 1994, Bosniaks and Croats reduced the number of warring factions from three to two by signing an agreement creating a joint Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Each nation reported many casualties in the three sided conflict, in which the Bosniaks reported the highest number of deaths and casualties. However, the only case officially ruled by the U.N. Hague tribunal as genocide was the Srebrenica massacre of 1995. At the end of the war more than anywhere from 102,000 to 278,000 had been killed and more than 2 million people fled their homes (including over 1 million to neighboring nations and the west).

On November 21, 1995, in Dayton, Ohio, presidents of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Alija Izetbegović), Croatia (Franjo Tuđman), and Serbia (Slobodan Milošević) signed a peace agreement that brought a halt to the three years of war in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (the final agreement was signed in Paris on 14 December 1995). The Dayton Agreement succeeded in ending the bloodshed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it institutionalized the division between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslim and Croat entity - Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (51% of the territory), and the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serb entity - Republika Srpska (49%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia#History

Now why didn't the president originally say that he wanted to liberate the Iraqis. In fact, why didn't he campaign on that platform in 2000? He used the boogeyman method instead after being elected and as a knee-jerk reaction to 9-11.
 
I think 'ind_thinker' was addressing NavyPride when he replied,

And please don't tell me that the military is a place for the free exchange of ideas. And if you were in the military you would know that convicted felons have more rights than enlisted men.

Permit me to add to my earlier contradiction of that assertion by saying that we have a pretty darned good example of how military guys these days are able to exchange ideas and communicate today, right here participating with us -- Gunny.

And Gunny is not the only one. If you would really like a view from the ground, go to www.iraqthemodel.com and scroll down a bit and you'll a number of links to blogs authored by folks on the ground in Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

Another good site for a view of how our people on the ground are interacting with citizens in both Iraq and Afghanistan is www.spiritofamerica.com.

I believe a tour of some of these sites would be an eye-opener for some DP posters!
 
oldreliable67 said:
I think 'ind_thinker' was addressing NavyPride when he replied,



Permit me to add to my earlier contradiction of that assertion by saying that we have a pretty darned good example of how military guys these days are able to exchange ideas and communicate today, right here participating with us -- Gunny.

And Gunny is not the only one. If you would really like a view from the ground, go to www.iraqthemodel.com and scroll down a bit and you'll a number of links to blogs authored by folks on the ground in Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

Another good site for a view of how our people on the ground are interacting with citizens in both Iraq and Afghanistan is www.spiritofamerica.com.

I believe a tour of some of these sites would be an eye-opener for some DP posters!

Thanks for the links. I will check them out. I hope I learn something.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Now why didn't the president originally say that he wanted to liberate the Iraqis. In fact, why didn't he campaign on that platform in 2000? He used the boogeyman method instead after being elected and as a knee-jerk reaction to 9-11.


He did. He just focused on WMD and that is exactly what everyone else focused on. None of us on the ground were under any illusion of our purposes (plural) before we crossed into Iraq.

I'm quite aware of the U-boats. Hardly an assault on us. If sinking some civilian ships was an act of war, then why isn't an attempt to assassinate an American President? How about this....

Read for yourself about the terrorist activities in Iraq before our assault....

* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

If this isn't enough, read on from these links....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html
http://www.intelmessages.org/Message...sages/826.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/khodada.html
 
Is this good enough reason....

"Torture and ill-treatment is systematic and widespread in Iraq, despite its
prohibition under the Iraqi Constitution and under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Anti-government political suspects are especially at risk, and are routinely tortured or ill-treated in custody. Torture is used as a punishment or to extract information, and victims have no access to lawyers and relatives. The methods of torture that have been reported include beating detainees while they are suspended by the limbs, applying electric shocks to various parts of
the body, falaqa (beating on the soles of the feet), extinguishing cigarettes
on the body, extracting finger and toenails, gouging out the ears, and rape.
Psychological torture include mock executions, forcing the detainee to watch others being tortured and solitary confinement."


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE140022001
 
The point is...there was plenty of reasons for Iraq and now those reasons don't exist anymore.
 
Oh, and btw, we're getting pretty far afield from the original purpose of the thread. In case anyone has forgotten, it was about the Bush videoconference and the ability/inability of soldiers to express their opinions independently.

Since then, we've hit on several topics suitable for their own threads. Oh, well, what the he$$...

Korea: a 'police action' under the auspices of the United Nations. Which, according to some, is one reason that there was never a peace treaty or even a truce, just a cease fire, same as following the first Gulf War. Even today, there is only the cease fire dating from 1953 (1954?). (Possible new thread topic: Does it occur to anyone that the same justification used in Iraq, nah, wouldnt happen. Would it?)

Vietnam: In 1962, JFK sent the then brand-new Army Special Forces (SF) into South Vietnam to help train ARVN forces. Thats what the SF were created and trained for. (Remember the John Wayne movie, 'The Green Berets'? I was at Ft Benning when it was being filmed in early '67, just before going in-country. Next time you see it, look for me -- I was the 83rd VC guy on the left. 'Pin silver wings...' :roll: ) LBJ expanded our involvement escalated from there. The motivation was to halt the spread of communisim. Remember the 'domino' theory?
 
Navy Pride said:
There will always be those on the left who are jealous of the rapport that this president has with the military and will do or say anything they can to discount it...........
Rapport? :2rofll: Still batting 1.000 Navy Pride! I guess you didn't watch the actual performance? Our fearless leader stuttered his way through every question, sounded as stilted as Nixon sounded, and it was clear there was ZERO rapport.

Did the soldiers enjoy themselves? OF COURSE! What an honor for any soldier to get in on a Q&A with the President! It's a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Does that mean that Bush had a "rapport" with them? Hell no! He is so stilted and sounds so phoney that he is always the brunt of jokes. As a matter of fact Jon Stewart did a really funny piece on this very event, and he focused in on how poorly (and how funny) Bush sounded!

You're a frickin' genius Navy Pride!
 
GySgt said:
He did. He just focused on WMD and that is exactly what everyone else focused on. None of us on the ground were under any illusion of our purposes (plural) before we crossed into Iraq.

I'm quite aware of the U-boats. Hardly an assault on us. If sinking some civilian ships was an act of war, then why isn't an attempt to assassinate an American President? How about this....

Read for yourself about the terrorist activities in Iraq before our assault....

* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

If this isn't enough, read on from these links....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html
http://www.intelmessages.org/Message...sages/826.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/khodada.html

The last 2 links didn't work for me, just so you know. Most of your "facts" are uncorraborated though. Especially the Powell quotes. The Fox news link doesn't say anything about a 707 at the camp.
 
He is so stilted and sounds so phoney that he is always the brunt of jokes.

Yeah, we got spoiled with Reagan and Clinton (and for us older folk, JFK), who were quite articulate. But, you know, even though Bush is not the communicator that JFK or Reagan or Clinton were, and even though he may (always) be the brunt of jokes to a certain group of people, if you watch his interaction with the troops when its 'up close and personal', you, or at least I do, come away with a different impression. Seems to me that the man is just not comfortable in front of a camera.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Yeah, we got spoiled with Reagan and Clinton (and for us older folk, JFK), who were quite articulate. But, you know, even though Bush is not the communicator that JFK or Reagan or Clinton were, and even though he may (always) be the brunt of jokes to a certain group of people, if you watch his interaction with the troops when its 'up close and personal', you, or at least I do, come away with a different impression. Seems to me that the man is just not comfortable in front of a camera.

Perhaps it is a "tick" that people have when they are lying or not being genuine. Or maybe he isn't comfortable in his own skin.
 
The Fox news link doesn't say anything about a 707 at the camp.

Didn't we see some footage on that 707 fuselage during the run to Baghdad, as US forces came up on it in a western desert airfield between Baghdad and Syria? I seem to recall one of the embedded reporters doing a piece on it. Will see if I can find a link.
 
Ah, 'thinker', I'm being serious and you are just being mean-spirited. Disappointed in you. :(
 
GySgt said:
Read for yourself about the terrorist activities in Iraq before our assault....

* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

If this isn't enough, read on from these links....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html
http://www.intelmessages.org/Message...sages/826.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/khodada.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=4678
 
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