Bush: Intel "Saves Lives"

[The Real McCoy]

Japan and Germany: We had a war with them and they lost. We did a good thing by helping them rebuild and forcing them to like us
South Korea: I believe we should never have been involved in that.

You said it yourself. Germany didn't even attack us either... you seem to like and pick and choose what countries we've helped rebuild are good and what ones aren't. How is South Korea or Iraq any different?

I agree. We ignored it because we kept killing innocents and making people mad at us. Like I said, change in policy is the only way to solve this.

They hate America. They hate our culture. They hate the freedoms we have. They hate all the sex in our society. They hate the way we over-eat. It's not just killing innocents... there's a very long list of grudges they hold against us.
The only change in policy we could enact that would make them happy is to turn our country into an Islamic Theocracy.

Thats why we have to show them we are not fighting a war against them. Invading Iraq and adding fuel to those peoples propaganda is no way to show that we are no tout to hurt the islamic people.

We ARE fighting a war against them (not all Muslims, just the extremists) whether you realize it or not and we're finally gaining more and more support in the Arab world. The constant killings of innocent women and children at the hands of al Qaeda including the bombings in Jordan are opening the eyes of most Muslims. Al Qaeda IS losing support.

70% (give or take) of Iraqis voted in this past election. That's a phenomenal turnout, especially considering the death threats they were receiving if they voted. This election NEVER would have been possible if the president decided to not go to Iraq.

We need to keep in mind what George Washington said "Beware of foreign entanglements". We have to stop supporting Israel, withdraw from the middle east, and focus our efforts on our own country. We can leave someone else to do the "world policing".

George Washington didn't live in the 20th and 21st centuries. This is a different time man. Imagine if we hadn't gotten involved in Europe during WWII. It's nice to see you side with the enemy. Classic liberal/socialist.

Most americans aren't very smart.

Your opinion.

Complete security is impossible without sacrificing liberty. People are always going to die. We need to move forward instead of regressing backwords. Thats the only way we can be a truly free and happy society.

We're not "regressing backwards." You take the liberties you're blessed with for granted, they would NOT exist were it not for security. PERIOD.

What is that the "New Domino Theory"? When one country falls to freedom the rest will fall? I don't believe thats ever going to work. And it definatly will not work if we keep fueling terrorists fire.

You don't believe a lot of things but that doesn't make them untrue. The drive for freedom is one of the most powerful forces in existence and a free Iraq would open the eyes of peoples all throughout the Middle East.

So if the president had the power to spy on anybody he wanted, you wouldn't have a problem with that?

Nope. Not if it's limited to wiretapping.

 

[FinnMacCool]

You said it yourself. Germany didn't even attack us either... you seem to like and pick and choose what countries we've helped rebuild are good and what ones aren't. How is South Korea or Iraq any different?

Germany declared war on us.

They hate America. They hate our culture. They hate the freedoms we have. They hate all the sex in our society. They hate the way we over-eat. It's not just killing innocents... there's a very long list of grudges they hold against us.
The only change in policy we could enact that would make them happy is to turn our country into an Islamic Theocracy.

Thats all a pack of lies. What they hate is our policy in the middle east. read 'Imperial Hubris'

We ARE fighting a war against them (not all Muslims, just the extremists)

Well right now we don't have very much evidence of it

whether you realize it or not and we're finally gaining more and more support in the Arab world. The constant killings of innocent women and children at the hands of al Qaeda including the bombings in Jordan are opening the eyes of most Muslims. Al Qaeda IS losing support.

When I see it I'll believe it.

70% (give or take) of Iraqis voted in this past election. That's a phenomenal turnout, especially considering the death threats they were receiving if they voted. This election NEVER would have been possible if the president decided to not go to Iraq.

Yes but before you declare victory, you should understand that the long term impact we have is not going to have an overly positive affect. Especially if the sunnis and shiites keep fighting. I am fairly optimistic that the sunnis will be able to settle their differences but I do have doubts.

George Washington didn't live in the 20th and 21st centuries. This is a different time man. Imagine if we hadn't gotten involved in Europe during WWII. It's nice to see you side with the enemy. Classic liberal/socialist.

George Washington was our founding father whom we base all our principles as an american nation on. Regardless of whether he lived in the 21st century or not, his message is very relevant.

Team Bush likes to use WWII as if it means anything to whats going on nowadays. We're fighting completely different wars now. A war in which we were, conciously or not, an original aggressor and we need to work towards peace.

I do not know anything about how that is classic "liberal/socialist". I would like you to show me how I've 'sided' with the enemy.

Your opinion.

A large percentage of americans are overweight. Are they very smart?

We're not "regressing backwards." You take the liberties you're blessed with for granted, they would NOT exist were it not for security. PERIOD.

Au contraire. It is you who take these liberties for granted. These liberties are what keeps our country from becoming an Orwellian nightmare. Security can only go so far. Liberty is everlasting.

You don't believe a lot of things but that doesn't make them untrue. The drive for freedom is one of the most powerful forces in existence and a free Iraq would open the eyes of peoples all throughout the Middle East.

When I see it, I'll believe it. History has shown you cannot force feed your own ideas of "freedom" down other peoples throats. We'll see what happens.

Nope. Not if it's limited to wiretapping

He has the power to do it to anybody he wants. He can skip all the paperwork and spy on anyone he wants. You have no problem with that?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Germany declared war on us.


Thats all a pack of lies. What they hate is our policy in the middle east. read 'Imperial Hubris'

You're wrong O.B.L. wants a pan-Islamic empire and has publicly stated that alQaeda's jihad against the west will not end until the west converts to Islam and does away with Democracy in favor of an Islamic theocracy.

Well right now we don't have very much evidence of it

When I see it I'll believe it.

Well then watch this thankyou America video clip:

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

Yes but before you declare victory, you should understand that the long term impact we have is not going to have an overly positive affect. Especially if the sunnis and shiites keep fighting. I am fairly optimistic that the sunnis will be able to settle their differences but I do have doubts.


George Washington was our founding father whom we base all our principles as an american nation on. Regardless of whether he lived in the 21st century or not, his message is very relevant.

Team Bush likes to use WWII as if it means anything to whats going on nowadays. We're fighting completely different wars now. A war in which we were, conciously or not, an original aggressor and we need to work towards peace.

No we were attacked on 9-11 we are not the aggressor what we need to do now is work towards victory, unconditional surrender, and the utter destruction of radical Islam.

I do not know anything about how that is classic "liberal/socialist". I would like you to show me how I've 'sided' with the enemy.


A large percentage of americans are overweight. Are they very smart?



Au contraire. It is you who take these liberties for granted. These liberties are what keeps our country from becoming an Orwellian nightmare. Security can only go so far. Liberty is everlasting.



When I see it, I'll believe it. History has shown you cannot force feed your own ideas of "freedom" down other peoples throats. We'll see what happens.

Wrong history has taught us quite the opposite ie Japan and Germany.

He has the power to do it to anybody he wants. He can skip all the paperwork and spy on anyone he wants. You have no problem with that?

. . . . . . . . . . .

 

[FinnMacCool]

Before I began, let me just ask that when you quote articles you don't leave my posts in there. Its annoying to have to delete it all.

You're wrong O.B.L. wants a pan-Islamic empire and has publicly stated that alQaeda's jihad against the west will not end until the west converts to Islam and does away with Democracy in favor of an Islamic theocracy.

Well maybe thats what HE wants but I have doubts about his followers. I think, more or less, they are angry at the United States policy in the middle east and how it affects them. Imperial Hubris is an excellent book on this topic written by someone who worked for the CIA.

Well then watch this thankyou America video clip:

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

Thats just propaganda. Not reliable.

No we were attacked on 9-11 we are not the aggressor what we need to do now is work towards victory, unconditional surrender, and the utter destruction of radical Islam.

The only reason why 9/11 would be considered a pre emptive strike by foreign nations is because thats the only thing that people wanted to see. Bush and Clinton and the Bush before that all ignored the threats of the Islamic terrorists and yet they refused to change policy. 9/11 woke them up but, unfortunately, it only led to more violence rather then peace.

Wrong history has taught us quite the opposite ie Japan and Germany.

I don't recall reading about how we shoved freedom down their throats. Perhaps we have read on different histories. Who knows.

 

[The Real McCoy]

The only reason why 9/11 would be considered a pre emptive strike by foreign nations is because thats the only thing that people wanted to see. Bush and Clinton and the Bush before that all ignored the threats of the Islamic terrorists and yet they refused to change policy. 9/11 woke them up but, unfortunately, it only led to more violence rather then peace.

Pearl Harbor woke us up and led to more violence that was NECESSARY for peace. Look at Japan now. Do you think people living in the 40s could possibly envision Japan today and the current relationship we share with them? This war is going to take time.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Before I began, let me just ask that when you quote articles you don't leave my posts in there. Its annoying to have to delete it all.


Well maybe thats what HE wants but I have doubts about his followers. I think, more or less, they are angry at the United States policy in the middle east and how it affects them. Imperial Hubris is an excellent book on this topic written by someone who worked for the CIA..

I suggest you read anything by Dr. Qutb the founder of the Islamic Brotherhood whose books are widely circulated by the governments of the middle east, in his books Qutb suggests that the world is divided into two camps one half on the side of Satan and the other on the side of Allah and that half the world is in a state of jahiliyya (ignorance of Allah) and that people even Muslims are being swayed by the decadence of the West into this state of jahiliyya and that it is the responsibility of every good Muslim to eradicate the western world to defeat who those who he sees to be on the side of Satan.

I'm not making this stuff up this is what the Islamic fundamentalists actually believe, this is reality and it seems to me that you are just being naive as to the true nature of our enemy.

Thats just propaganda. Not reliable.

Propaganda from whom? It's a Kurdish based web site.

The only reason why 9/11 would be considered a pre emptive strike by foreign nations is because thats the only thing that people wanted to see. Bush and Clinton and the Bush before that all ignored the threats of the Islamic terrorists and yet they refused to change policy. 9/11 woke them up but, unfortunately, it only led to more violence rather then peace.

So you are of the opinion that 9-11 should have forced the west to surrender to these radical Islamists?

I don't recall reading about how we shoved freedom down their throats. Perhaps we have read on different histories. Who knows.

Uh, we faught a war that cost millions of lives to bring freedom and Democracy to Europe not once but twice, I think you need to actually take a real history course not what you read on Noam Chomskys web site that's called revisionist history. Ever hear of Wilson's fourteen points?

 

[FinnMacCool]

Pearl Harbor woke us up and led to more violence that was NECESSARY for peace. Look at Japan now. Do you think people living in the 40s could possibly envision Japan today and the current relationship we share with them? This war is going to take time.

It is wrong to compare Pearl Harbor to 9/11. WW2 was a completely different war.

 

[FinnMacCool]

I suggest you read anything by Dr. Qutb the founder of the Islamic Brotherhood whose books are widely circulated by the governments of the middle east, in his books Qutb suggests that the world is divided into two camps one half on the side of Satan and the other on the side of Allah and that half the world is in a state of jahiliyya (ignorance of Allah) and that people even Muslims are being swayed by the decadence of the West into this state of jahiliyya and that it is the responsibility of every good Muslim to eradicate the western world to defeat who those who he sees to be on the side of Satan.

I'm not making this stuff up this is what the Islamic fundamentalists actually believe, this is reality and it seems to me that you are just being naive as to the true nature of our enemy.

I find it difficult to believe that our enemies are primarily influenced by religion. Its true that they may use such propaganda in order to gain followers but I believe that is not the case. Besides this is only one example and it doesn't neccesarily reflect the views of others.

Propaganda from whom? It's a Kurdish based web site.

Doesn't mean its any less propaganda.

So you are of the opinion that 9-11 should have forced the west to surrender to these radical Islamists?

Surrender? No. Change policy? Yes. OBL should be brought to justice but, other then that, the only way we can have a lasting peace is a change in policy.

Uh, we faught a war that cost millions of lives to bring freedom and Democracy to Europe not once but twice, I think you need to actually take a real history course not what you read on Noam Chomskys web site that's called revisionist history. Ever hear of Wilson's fourteen points?

I've never read anything by Noam Chompsky. For some reason, you keep bringing him up in your posts. Why is that?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I find it difficult to believe that our enemies are primarily influenced by religion. Its true that they may use such propaganda in order to gain followers but I believe that is not the case. Besides this is only one example and it doesn't neccesarily reflect the views of others.

What world are you living in the people who perpetrated 9-11 and who perform suicide bombings are totally convinced that they will be martyred and go directly to heaven if they die killing an infidel that's why they do it. Your living in a dream world if you think we're fighting a rational enemy that can be reasoned with.

Doesn't mean its any less propaganda.

I got it if it's good news it's propaganda, if it's al-jazeera talking points it's the truth right?

Surrender? No. Change policy? Yes. OBL should be brought to justice but, other then that, the only way we can have a lasting peace is a change in policy.

Ya a change in their policy by the use of force if necessary which it is.

I've never read anything by Noam Chompsky. For some reason, you keep bringing him up in your posts. Why is that?

Because to socialist liberals he is their god.

 

[The Real McCoy]

It is wrong to compare Pearl Harbor to 9/11. WW2 was a completely different war.

It's STILL a WAR. Accept it or not, war is inevitable in reality and violence is necessary to attain peace. Where would we be without the Revolutionary War? Where would we be without the Civil War? Where would we be without World War 2?

 

[FinnMacCool]

What world are you living in the people who perpetrated 9-11 and who perform suicide bombings are totally convinced that they will be martyred and go directly to heaven if they die killing an infidel that's why they do it. Your living in a dream world if you think we're fighting a rational enemy that can be reasoned with.

You would find that most of those who strapped bombs to their chest were on some kind of personal vendetta.

I got it if it's good news it's propaganda, if it's al-jazeera talking points it's the truth right?

Thats no news website.

Ya a change in their policy by the use of force if necessary which it is.

Thats exactly what we shouldn't be doing. Change in OUR policy is what we need.

Because to socialist liberals he is their god.

Chompsky is an anarchist. Not a socialist.

And I have never read any of his work.

"Socialist Liberals" is a dumb term. Socialism and Liberalism are different idealogies. That term that you surely got from Rush is just a term meant to draw attention away from real issues, which you seem to be fond of as you posted in the Debate Tips part in the General annoucments forum.

 

[FinnMacCool]

It's STILL a WAR. Accept it or not, war is inevitable in reality and violence is necessary to attain peace. Where would we be without the Revolutionary War? Where would we be without the Civil War? Where would we be without World War 2?

You cannot compare the circumstances in all those wars to the war on terror. It isn't right. Its very misleading.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

It's STILL a WAR. Accept it or not, war is inevitable in reality and violence is necessary to attain peace. Where would we be without the Revolutionary War? Where would we be without the Civil War? Where would we be without World War 2?

Well accoding to the libs the world would be perfect without the U.S. so I doubt they would even have supported the revolution. I mean how dare we fight the British that was a violation of the international rules of war set forth by the King of England and besides the Indians were here first we should have just committed mass suicide. :lol:

 

[FinnMacCool]

Well accoding to the libs the world would be perfect without the U.S. so I doubt they would even have supported the revolution.

This is going into the evidence box.

 

[The Real McCoy]

You cannot compare the circumstances in all those wars to the war on terror. It isn't right. Its very misleading.

You still fail to accept the reality that THIS IS A WAR. They declared war on us and we declared war on them. Of course it's a different kind of war but the point is that sometimes WAR IS NECESSARY TO ATTAIN PEACE.

 

[FinnMacCool]

You still fail to accept the reality that THIS IS A WAR. They declared war on us and we declared war on them. Of course it's a different kind of war but the point is that sometimes WAR IS NECESSARY TO ATTAIN PEACE.

War leads to more war. If anything in this world is certain, that is it. IN the words of John F. Kennedy "We must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind."

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

This is going into the evidence box.

Sorry friend you really aught to read the rules of the forum a little more closely I mean it says it right in the trademark political bias IS an option and as near as I can tell your name was not mentioned in that statement so it does not qualify as a personal attack.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Well accoding to the libs the world would be perfect without the U.S. so I doubt they would even have supported the revolution. I mean how dare we fight the British that was a violation of the international rules of war set forth by the King of England and besides the Indians were here first we should have just committed mass suicide. :lol:

Ah yes, the liberals of yore: the Tories. I think you and I both agree that most liberals today are just as traitorous.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Sorry friend you really aught to read the rules of the forum a little more closely I mean it says it right in the trademark political bias IS an option and as near as I can tell your name was not mentioned in that statement so it does not qualify as a personal attack.

Personal attack or not, its stupidity and its going in the evidence box.

 

[The Real McCoy]

War leads to more war. If anything in this world is certain, that is it. IN the words of John F. Kennedy "We must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind."

That's noble but un-realistic.

And war leads to more war? No. War leads to peace. Then other wars begin, usually because of unrelated circumstances.

 

[FinnMacCool]

That's noble but un-realistic.

And war leads to more war? No. War leads to peace. Then other wars begin, usually because of unrelated circumstances.

Its only unrealistic because people like you stand in the way of peace. You and your fellows hold on desperately to old ways and, in that way, will end up bringing us down.

Now, on the subject of the Revolution of 1776 in which you believe the liberals would've supported King George, you should realize that this country was founded upon social liberal values. Libertarian values actually, which you supposedly support.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

War leads to more war. If anything in this world is certain, that is it. IN the words of John F. Kennedy "We must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind."

We make war that we may live in peace. -- Aristotle 325 B.C.

Right is more precious than peace. -- Woodrow Wilson

If we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known that we are at all times ready for war. -- George Washington

Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist No. 34

With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments, where they will certainly be lost. -- William Lloyd Garrison

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -- Winston Churchill

You can have peace, or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. -- Robert A. Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. -- Thomas Paine

To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace. A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined. -- George Washington, First Annual Address, January 8, 1790.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill

Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway

 

[FinnMacCool]

We make war that we may live in peace. -- Aristotle 325 B.C.

Right is more precious than peace. -- Woodrow Wilson

If we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known that we are at all times ready for war. -- George Washington

Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist No. 34

With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments, where they will certainly be lost. -- William Lloyd Garrison

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -- Winston Churchill

You can have peace, or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. -- Robert A. Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. -- Thomas Paine

To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace. A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined. -- George Washington, First Annual Address, January 8, 1790.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill

Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway

Good job. You just spent all that time resarching quotes that have nothing to do with what I posted. Congrats. Now care to debate me on some actual issues?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Good job. You just spent all that time resarching quotes that have nothing to do with what I posted. Congrats. Now care to debate me on some actual issues?

Sorry sport you posted that war leads to more war and used a quote by JFK to back up your assertion, I claim that war leads to peace and posted the words of alot more important leaders than him. And what is Kennedy talking about anyways? He got us engaged in the Vietnam war.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Sorry sport you posted that war leads to more war and used a quote by JFK to back up your assertion, I claim that war leads to peace and posted the words of alot more important leaders than him. And what is Kennedy talking about anyways? He got us engaged in the Vietnam war

JFK isn't having a debate with all those people's quotes. How about you respond to something else I posted on here?