Bush: Intel "Saves Lives"

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Thats real cute trying to place the blame on Clinton but Bush has equal responsiblity to 9/11 as did Clinton. I'm not going to bother to tell you what the report said. I'm sure you've heard it a million times.

The fact is: 9/11 took place because those in the executive branch during those admins didn't take the threat seriously. The Patriot Act would've done no more if it were in place.

This is called an opinion this is called a fact:

O.K. here's the deal the military intelligence gathering operation able danger had information as to the 9-11 ringleader Mohammad Atta's identity taken from the 20th hijacker's, Zacarias Moussaoui, personnel computer which was recovered after capture early in the year 2000, however, due to the the Clinton-Gorelick wall, which prevented the F.B.I. from receiving information from intelligence gathering operations, this information was not received by the F.B.I.. The Patriot Act has a provision in it that did away with the Gorelick wall but guess what that provision is set to expire in two weeks due to the Democratic filibuster of the Patriot Act renewal bill.

Any questions?

Hay buddy if you're reffering to the 9-11 commission report the Gorelick memo/wall isn't even mentioned neither is able danger, probably due to the fact that Gorelick was on said commission. I posted a fact here if the patriot act had been in place able danger could have prevented 9-11 due to it's provision eliminating the Gorelick wall, care to state any facts as to how Bush was responsible for the Gorelick wall? I'm all ears until you give me facts your opinions are absolutely meaningless.

 

[FinnMacCool]

This is called an opinion got any facts?

Read the 9/11 commission report.

Hay buddy if you're reffering to the 9-11 commission report the Gorelick memo/wall isn't even mentioned neither is able danger, probably due to the fact that Gorelick was on said commission. I posted a fact here if the patriot act had been in place able danger could have prevented 9-11 due to it's provision eliminating the Gorelick wall, care to state any facts as to how Bush was responsible for the Gorelick wall? I'm all ears until you give me facts your opinions are absolutely meaningless.

I don't give a **** what the 9/11 commission said on that. I have acknowleged that and you should, at the very least, consider that a victory. Its the facts. Take it or leave it. If your willing to put the entire blame on Clinton yet not acknowledge the mistakes of Bush, your gonna have problems. I have done both for Clinton and Bush. You just will not recognize them.

 

[FinnMacCool]

O.K. here's the deal the military intelligence gathering operation able danger had information as to the 9-11 ringleader Mohammad Atta's identity taken from the 20th hijacker's, Zacarias Moussaoui, personnel computer which was recovered after capture early in the year 2000, however, due to the the Clinton-Gorelick wall, which prevented the F.B.I. from receiving information from intelligence gathering operations, this information was not received by the F.B.I.. The Patriot Act has a provision in it that did away with the Gorelick wall but guess what that provision is set to expire in two weeks due to the Democratic filibuster of the Patriot Act renewal bill.

Was this needed to prevent 9/11? No. They all had their chances. They decided not to take them. This was one of many chances and the Patriot Act wouldn't have made any difference.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Was this needed to prevent 9/11? No. They all had their chances. They decided not to take them. This was one of many chances and the Patriot Act wouldn't have made any difference.

Again this is an opinion even worse it is a shifting goal post fallacy in that you first made the assertion that the Patriot Act would not have prevented 9-11, I have proven that it would have, and now you are shifting your goal to saying: "well it wasn't needed to prevent 9-11." And again you have made an assertion that is your opinion without any facts to back up your claim that: "Bush had an opportunity to prevent 9-11 yet didn't take it," without stating any FACTS to back up your claim.

Again I'll repeat it a little slower this time:

Do . . . you . . . have . . . any . . . facts?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Read the 9/11 commission report.





I don't give a **** what the 9/11 commission said on that. I have acknowleged that and you should, at the very least, consider that a victory. Its the facts. Take it or leave it. If your willing to put the entire blame on Clinton yet not acknowledge the mistakes of Bush, your gonna have problems. I have done both for Clinton and Bush. You just will not recognize them.

Just what facts have you stated? All I've seen you state is Partisan rhetoric with out a shread of factual evidence to back up your claims.

 

[jfuh]

Just what facts have you stated? All I've seen you state is Partisan rhetoric with out a shread of factual evidence to back up your claims.

You seem to be very unknowledgable of the use of Google.
You want facts?

http://www.911truth.org/

Feel free to challenge any ascertian made on this site.
Again, care to show me more "facts" that challenge the fact that Bush Inc. indeed knew, and were warned by various intelligence agencies world wide of the mounting attack?
Hence again, the patriot act is nothing more than allowing big brother to watch over you.
Well since you seem so certain of the need for the patriot act, how about sharing with the rest of us all your personal info, care to show us all your credit card bills? Why not right? afterall you have nothing to fear.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You seem to be very unknowledgable of the use of Google.
You want facts?

http://www.911truth.org/

Feel free to challenge any ascertian made on this site.
Again, care to show me more "facts" that challenge the fact that Bush Inc. indeed knew, and were warned by various intelligence agencies world wide of the mounting attack?
Hence again, the patriot act is nothing more than allowing big brother to watch over you.
Well since you seem so certain of the need for the patriot act, how about sharing with the rest of us all your personal info, care to show us all your credit card bills? Why not right? afterall you have nothing to fear.

lmfao you just used a 9-11 conspiracy site as a source I guess you must be new here just so you know that **** gets no play here not even with the ultra-lib socialists on this site, and you challenged my sources? lmfao unbelievable, so was it the illuminati or the elders of Zion?

 

[The Real McCoy]

Yeah, jfuh, 911truth.org isn't the most credible source...

 

[jfuh]

lmfao you just used a 9-11 conspiracy site as a source I guess you must be new here just so you know that **** gets no play here not even with the ultra-lib socialists on this site, and you challenged my sources? lmfao unbelievable, so was it the illuminati or the elders of Zion?

Wrong source. Here're the right ones.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3436357.stm

Its actually not difficult to find more credible sources that state of Bush's prior knowledge of emminent attacks, but I believe two would be plenty for you to read.

Back to my challenge for you though:

Again, care to show me more "facts" that challenge the fact that Bush Inc. indeed knew, and were warned by various intelligence agencies world wide of the mounting attack?
Hence again, the patriot act is nothing more than allowing big brother to watch over you.
Well since you seem so certain of the need for the patriot act, how about sharing with the rest of us all your personal info, care to show us all your credit card bills? Why not right? afterall you have nothing to fear.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Wrong source. Here're the right ones.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3436357.stm

Its actually not difficult to find more credible sources that state of Bush's prior knowledge of emminent attacks, but I believe two would be plenty for you to read.

Back to my challenge for you though:

title of first article: "9/11 panel sees no link between Iraq, al-Qaida."
second article: Bush's name not mentioned once.

As for your challenge you just asked me to prove a negative, has no one ever told you that that is impossible, that's like asking me to prove that god does not exist.

But here's why the Patriot Act would have prevented 9-11:

O.K. here's the deal the military intelligence gathering operation able danger had information as to the 9-11 ringleader Mohammad Atta's identity taken from the 20th hijacker's, Zacarias Moussaoui, personnel computer which was recovered after capture early in the year 2000, however, due to the the Clinton-Gorelick wall, which prevented the F.B.I. from receiving information from intelligence gathering operations, this information was not received by the F.B.I.. The Patriot Act has a provision in it that did away with the Gorelick wall but guess what that provision is set to expire in two weeks due to the Democratic filibuster of the Patriot Act renewal bill.

 

[jfuh]

title of first article: "9/11 panel sees no link between Iraq, al-Qaida."
second article: Bush's name not mentioned once.

As for your challenge you just asked me to prove a negative, has no one ever told you that that is impossible, that's like asking me to prove that god does not exist.

Bush's name not mentioned once? How about at the very end of the article. That is of course irrelevant, the relevant portion is that the government knew about the eminent attack. Who's top notch in the gov?

Back on topic, the fact remains that the government indeed knew of these attacks to take place. This is all without the patriot act even being in place.
So again, I challenge you, proove how the government is in any way hindered by not being able to look up our medical records, library check outs, ect.

Again, would you care to share with us all of your credit card history?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Bush's name not mentioned once? How about at the very end of the article. That is of course irrelevant, the relevant portion is that the government knew about the eminent attack. Who's top notch in the gov?

Back on topic, the fact remains that the government indeed knew of these attacks to take place. This is all without the patriot act even being in place.
So again, I challenge you, proove how the government is in any way hindered by not being able to look up our medical records, library check outs, ect.

Again, would you care to share with us all of your credit card history?

the whole point of those articles is that the information was not passed on to the F.B.I. due to the Gorelick wall which the Patriot Act did away with, thanks for proving my point. As for the shortcomings of the immigration departments that is covered in the provisions of the Patriot Act, have you even read the piece of legislation or are you talking out of your ass?

 

[FinnMacCool]

Just what facts have you stated? All I've seen you state is Partisan rhetoric with out a shread of factual evidence to back up your claims.

Sound familiar? Its the same thing your doing? As long as you keep listening to partisan talk shows, you never WILL find any answers. You have the amazing capability to only hear the things you want to hear and pick out immediatly the things that might hurt the opposing side.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Again this is an opinion even worse it is a shifting goal post fallacy in that you first made the assertion that the Patriot Act would not have prevented 9-11,
I have proven that it would have, and now you are shifting your goal to saying: "well it wasn't needed to prevent 9-11." And again you have made an assertion that is your opinion without any facts to back up your claim that: "Bush had an opportunity to prevent 9-11 yet didn't take it," without stating any FACTS to back up your claim.

Again I'll repeat it a little slower this time:

Do . . . you . . . have . . . any . . . facts?

Your fighting a losing battle here. This entire debate is based on opinions. You know absolutely nothing except what other people tell you. Hell, I can make an inference based on facts and come to a different conclusion to you OR I can have a different opinion based on different facts which is what YOU are doing. All your doing is expressing a seperate opinion based on these 'facts' if yo may call it that. So, in other words, your doing absolutely nothinge except offering your opinion. Nice try.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Your fighting a losing battle here. This entire debate is based on opinions. You know absolutely nothing except what other people tell you. Hell, I can make an inference based on facts and come to a different conclusion to you OR I can have a different opinion based on different facts which is what YOU are doing. All your doing is expressing a seperate opinion based on these 'facts' if yo may call it that. So, in other words, your doing absolutely nothinge except offering your opinion. Nice try.

You really ought to learn the difference between opinion and fact I have made the assertion that if the Patriot Act had been in place that 9-11 would not have happened and I have provided concrete facts to back it up. You have stated that the Patriot Act would not have prevented 9-11 with no evidence to back your assertion.

 

[FinnMacCool]

You really ought to learn the difference between opinion and fact I have made the assertion that if the Patriot Act had been in place that 9-11 would not have happened and I have provided concrete facts to back it up. You have stated that the Patriot Act would not have prevented 9-11 with no evidence to back your assertion.

I gave you evidence. You acknowledged it yourself. All your doing is playing a game for the non participating visitors here.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I gave you evidence. You acknowledged it yourself. All your doing is playing a game for the non participating visitors here.

Dude you're extremely partisan, the Patriot Act wasn't even a partisan issue originally everyone in the Senate voted for it except for one man. The Dem's in the senate have turned the security of this nation into a partisan issue and it's really quite unconscionable and unforgivable. Furthermore; I challenge you to find me one case in which someone has been wrongfully prosecuted due to the Patriot Act I have given you incontrovertible evidence that had the Patriot Act been in place before 9-11 then it never would have happened and you retort that my facts are opinions, you're running around in circles trying to skew the issue because you have no real argument.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Dude you're extremely partisan,

Dude, everybodys partisan. Even you, as hard as that is to believe.

the Patriot Act wasn't even a partisan issue originally everyone in the Senate voted for it except for one man. The Dem's in the senate have turned the security of this nation into a partisan issue and it's really quite unconscionable and unforgivable.

The patriot act became a "partisan" issue when the democrats realized what a bunch of assholes they were. Team Bush took advantage of the fact that everyone was afraid and everyone would trust in his judgement because he had so much support after 9/11. Democats and Republicans both have to force themselves to play "partisan games" because they both want power but they both cannot express their true opinions fully because it could alienate certain sides of the issue.

If you are so eager to call the democrats partisan, which of course they are , then you better call the republicans partisan. I reject both because they are motiviated more by their love of power then their ideals. Therefore, based on this, I find it both dishonest and redundant of me to defend the democrats so I will not do so here.

Furthermore; I challenge you to find me one case in which someone has been wrongfully prosecuted due to the Patriot Act I have given you incontrovertible evidence that had the Patriot Act been in place before 9-11 then it never would have happened and you retort that my facts are opinions, you're running around in circles trying to skew the issue because you have no real argument.

I challenge you to actually respond to what the evidence I gave. It would be dumb of me to have to repeat myself, wouldn't it?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Dude, everybodys partisan. Even you, as hard as that is to believe.
The patriot act became a "partisan" issue when the democrats realized what a bunch of assholes they were. Team Bush took advantage of the fact that everyone was afraid and everyone would trust in his judgement because he had so much support after 9/11. Democats and Republicans both have to force themselves to play "partisan games" because they both want power but they both cannot express their true opinions fully because it could alienate certain sides of the issue.

If you are so eager to call the democrats partisan, which of course they are , then you better call the republicans partisan. I reject both because they are motiviated more by their love of power then their ideals. Therefore, based on this, I find it both dishonest and redundant of me to defend the democrats so I will not do so here.



I challenge you to actually respond to what the evidence I gave. It would be dumb of me to have to repeat myself, wouldn't it?

Again you have not offered one shred of evidence only opinion, rhetoric, and conjecture.

 

[FinnMacCool]

Again you have not offered one shred of evidence only opinion, rhetoric, and conjecture.

Again, you fail to respond to what I have posted and try to worm your way around it by questioning the way which I present my views.

 

[oldreliable67]

If you are so eager to call the democrats partisan, which is dumb because of course they are partisan, then you better call the republicans partisan. I reject both because they are motiviated more by their love of power then their ideals. Therefore, based on this, I find it both dishonest and redundant of me to defend the democrats so I will not do so here.

Thats quite circuitous, but you know what? You're absolutely right. The partisan gaming is out of control from both sides of the aisle. There are no idealist any longer (McCain a possible exception - admirable standing up for torture bill, even if its not perfect, its a step in the right direction), there isn't a one of them on the Hill that will make solving a problem objectively more important than solving a problem along the party line. Disgusting.

Just my opinion - YMMV.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Again, you fail to respond to what I have posted and try to worm your way around it by questioning the way which I present my views.

That's your whole problem and why you're wrong you're basing your views of the issue on your own personal opinion I'm basing my views on the facts of the issues. In your world facts are lies and lies are facts.

 

[FinnMacCool]

That's your whole problem and why you're wrong you're basing your views of the issue on your own personal opinion I'm basing my views on the facts of the issues. In your world facts are lies and lies are facts.

Sheesh. Why do you refuse to debate me? :doh

 

[The Real McCoy]

Thats quite circuitous, but you know what? You're absolutely right. The partisan gaming is out of control from both sides of the aisle. There are no idealist any longer (McCain a possible exception - admirable standing up for torture bill, even if its not perfect, its a step in the right direction), there isn't a one of them on the Hill that will make solving a problem objectively more important than solving a problem along the party line. Disgusting.

Just my opinion - YMMV.

I realize the polarization is ridiculous but, quite frankly, I'm sick of the bile being spewed by the left on Capitol Hill.

I'll save everyone's time and refrain from posting the mile long list of quotes from Democratic representatives, senators and former members of the Clinton administration between 1998 and 2003 (half that time Bush wasn't even a factor) asserting that there were WMDS and that they posed a real threat and that the use of force was justified.

Now Dean, Kerry, Kennedy, Reid, Pelosi, Boxer and the rest of their lot have done complete 180s, selling whatever souls they had left for the sake of political gain. I will leave Lieberman and Hillary Clinton (even though I despise her) off my black list for their honest, admirable opposition to their current party.... although Hillary's intentions are highly questionable.

These scum are calling for retreat, undermining the sacrifice of over 2000 American soldiers and proposing a plan to destroy everything they have fought for. They would rather have an oil rich nation be handed over to al Qaeda on a silver platter which is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They would rather America be the laughing stock of the international community. They would rather embolden the insurgent/extremist cause and leaders of nations like Syria and Iran.

They fail to recognize the progress being made. The recent election, a near 70% voter turnout in the face of death threats, seems to mean nothing to them. The continuing progress made by the security forces of the Iraqis themselves seems to be nothing in their eyes. They seemingly fail to realize the growing opposition to al-Qaeda within the Arab world, another victory on the horizon for us.

These are the people in our government who have destroyed a once great Democratic party and favored a far-leftist, retreatist, anti-American mentality, funded by the ultra-liberal elites, namely Soros and Lewis.

Mark my words, if these snakes continue slithering along their current path, the Democrats WILL lose seats in the House and Senate in 2006.

 

[FinnMacCool]

See thats the whole problem McCoy. You just went into this huge criticism of the Democrat party but you never bothered to attack the Republicans. Thats why these two parties are allowed to thrive because nobody is willing to try and branch out a bit and attack both sides of the isle.