Brzezinski against war with Iran

[Apocalypse]

especially because Israeli soldiers have no problem using kids as shields against bullets or taking entire families as hostages and forcing them to stay in a building with Israeli soldiers so if the enemy attacks they also killl you and your whole family. That says a lot about Israel.

Right, whatever you say buddy.
Your point is valueless and contributes nothing besides the common anti-Western rants.

And Iran is not as big a threat to the US as Saudi Arabia is. I don't condone war but I dislike knowing that we are fighting because the jews tell us to fight and nothing more.

If you are for giving nukes to a state that calls "Death to the Great Satan, death to the Small Satan - Death to America, death to Israel" and actively supports terrorist organizations in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan, then I'm afraid it is nothing but your own damaged opinion.

 

[Apocalypse]

Oh well go ahead since you feel the need to insult someone which speaks voluems about you.

The need to seek for provocations at issues that you do not seem to have knowledge about, speaks volumes on your character, stalin.

 

[Apocalypse]

This is no contradiction at all.

Contradiction is in the title of those articles, creation, and simply denying that is not counted as "debating".

Please do try to contradict the points raised in those articles of knowledge and facts, and try to make an attempt at a convincing argument as to why those facts listed in the articles are not really facts.

 

[Apocalypse]

Always glad to Oblige. And one must not only look at the above two, which would be enough, but their CONTEXT within a whole sequence of Bellicose actions.

There was really no need for that, mbig.
The reasoning as to why it was Egypt that has started the Six-Day war was right there in the link I've referred justabubba to, that creation was quoting.

If facts was what he seeks, he would have already addressed them directly from the links.

 

[creation]

Contradiction is in the title of those articles, creation, and simply denying that is not counted as "debating".

Please do try to contradict the points raised in those articles of knowledge and facts, and try to make an attempt at a convincing argument as to why those facts listed in the articles are not really facts.

The title is "List of wars involving Israel". where is the contradiction?

 

[Apocalypse]

The title is "List of wars involving Israel". where is the contradiction?

I was speaking specifically on the Iranian support to organizations such as Hamas and Hizballah, and that is the title of one or more of the articles.

The contradiction to the other part, the wars involving Israel, can be found in the wiki article I referred to.

 

[creation]

I was speaking specifically on the Iranian support to organizations such as Hamas and Hizballah, and that is the title of one or more of the articles.

The contradiction to the other part, the wars involving Israel, can be found in the wiki article I referred to.

yes, can you tell us where exactly ?

 

[Apocalypse]

yes, can you tell us where exactly ?

Already given that information to you, personally, in the past.
But would be glad to do it again;

After the Arab rejection of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (UN General Assembly Resolution 181) that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state side by side, five Arab states invaded the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_War_of_Independence]1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[10] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The war began with a joint surprise attack against Israel by Egypt and Syria on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in Judaism.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War]Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The Government of Israel decided to launch the military operation after the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov, by the Abu Nidal Organization, a mercenary organization opposed to the PLO.[2]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War]1982 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War]2006 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

On 18 December Hamas declared the end of a six-month ceasefire with Israel and on 24 December began an intensification of rocket fire towards the country's towns.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War]Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[creation]

Already given that information to you, personally, in the past.
But would be glad to do it again;

1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1982 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2006 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah , I see. It wasnt that article but another referring to the six day war.

 

[Apocalypse]

Ah , I see. It wasnt that article but another referring to the six day war.

That article was a "mother article", if you'd like, that has included links to all of those articles.

In a sorted fashion.

 

[mbig]

wow, you so nailed me [/s]
an article by an individual, Al-Faraj, "a top kuwaiti strategist", an individual your post advises "who heads the independent Kuwait Center for Strategy Studies"
let's look at how "independent" al-faraj actually is
that "independent" Kuwait Center for Strategy Studies ... look at this web site/cite showing its affiliation with FPRI:
Kuwait Center for Strategic and Future Studies | FPRI Think Tank Directory

http://www.fpri.org/about/FPRIAnnualReport.pdf

note the prinicpals of this organization you would have us believe speaks for kuwait:
Robert L. Freedman, Chairman,
Harvey Sicherman, President,
Susan H. Goldberg, Special Events Chair,
and John M. Templeton, Jr.

looks like the roster for the tennis team at the local jewish community center

yep, you sure showed me, by offering up an "independent" article critical of iran's nuclear development, which article was underwritten by the Jewish run FPRI [/s]

WHAT?

"FPRI" LISTS 1000 Think Tanks. It's a "DIRECTORY"!
They don't tell them what to say.
Because YOU found it in a directory, rather than it's own website.. it's owned by Jews?
Is the State of North Carolina or Coca Cola or Run be Bell South because they're in THEIR directory?
What!

The "Local Jewish Community Center" doesn't run them (or control the world).

FPRI Security and International Affairs Think Tank Directory | FPRI Think Tank Directory

FPRI Security and International Affairs Think Tank Directory
Welcome to the Foreign Policy Research Institute’s online Think Tank Directory, which lists think tanks devoted to Security and International Affairs research and education. Nearly 1000 institutions are represented, which you can browse by name, list by country, or search from this website.

FPRI’s Think Tanks and Foreign Policy Program was initiated in part because there was no single source of information on think tanks. National, regional and selective international databases have been developed but no comprehensive database existed until now. It is the long term goal of the project to periodically collect and analyze information about these organizations through surveys so that national, regional and global trends can be identified.

The Kuwait Center for Strategic studies is IN Kuwait, run by Kuwaitis. Because it's in the FPRI Directory of 1000 Think tanks doesn't mean it's run by Jews!

Also known as: CSFSKU
Website URL: http://www.csfsku.com (mbig note; link not working)
Country: Kuwait
Founded: 2000
Contact information
Phone number:
965-483-4197
Fax number:
965-482-4645
Street address:
Kuwait University, Shuwaikh Campus, Villa # 28, Kuwait
Contact person’s e-mail:
center@csfsku.com
Director’s name:
Shamlan Alessa (Director)

Or Google the Person quoted: [ame="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4EGLC_enUS336US336&q=Sami+al%2dFaraj"]Sami al-Faraj - Google Search[/ame]


Your INANE (as always) suggestion tha Sami al-Faraj and the Kuwait Center are run/controlled/influenced by Jews... is .. Unbelievable.. but just Bubba 'debate' as usual.
Really there are no [allowed] words to describe how Ridiculous your post is.
Not to mention, clearly biased against Jews.
Surprise, Not.
-

 

[creation]

That article was a "mother article", if you'd like, that has included links to all of those articles.

In a sorted fashion.

Indeed.

By the way, why did Israel claim to be mortally dependent on trade through Eilat?

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

 

[creation]

Further, if Israel was in peril then why did few top Israelis and certainly not the CIA fear the power of the arabs?

Why, if israel was in peril did egypt agree to send its ambassador to the US to discuss diplomatic settlement of the straits issue?

 

[mbig]

Indeed.

By the way, why did Israel claim to be mortally dependent on trade through Eilat ?

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

Further, if Israel was in peril then why did few top Israelis and certainly not the CIA fear the power of the arabs?

Why, if israel was in peril did egypt agree to send its ambassador to the US to discuss diplomatic settlement of the straits issue?

Why didn't YOU answer my post #72, instead of your usual non-sequitor questions? (now at 5 in a row with no declarative content).

 

[CJ 2.0]

Indeed.

By the way, why did Israel claim to be mortally dependent on trade through Eilat?

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

Gee, couldn't possibly have anything to do with fact that Nasser had also thrown out the UN, moved a massive army to the border, signed a military cooperation alliance with Syria, and made a series of public pronouncements that the end was nigh and that Israel was imminently to be annihilated?

I mean, with all that and Israel diging thousands of graves and a somber mood throughout the country of facing possibly the end of their nation, why wouldn't they agree to nonsensical and irrelevant arbitration while Egypt continued to prepare to destroy them?

I'm pretty sure there is no international law requiring Israel to be stupid, though many of its opponents seem to believe this is THE cornerstone of international law.

So why not just come out and say it. Since Israel had no real right to exist, it was an obvious aggressor because it didn't sit back and act like a special needs with its head in the sand about the goodwill of its enemies and the concern of the international community for law and justice and all that nonsense.

Cause that's what you really think, right? You just know that position is untenable and unpalatable so you dress it up with distorted facts and omissions in order to create a parallel universe where up was down, down was up, and Israel was the aggressor for defending itself from open aggression.

 

[creation]

Why didn't YOU answer my post #72, instead of your usual non-sequitor questions? (now at 5 in a row with no declarative content).

Because I asked Apocalypse to give out the usual Israeli arguments and you obliged for us. For which Im grateful.

these questions are my counter. Problem?

 

[CJ 2.0]

I still don't see what any of this has to do with Iran, which is developing nuclear weapons in violation of ITS treaty agreements (Israel was never a party to the non-proliferation treaty and never received assistance or access to technology under the treaty). Iran which has been financing and supplying weapons for a hot war against the US in Iraq and against Israel through Hezbollah and Hamas. Iran which has directed terrorist attacks against civilian targets in Argentina. Iran which keeps its own people under a brutal occupation, terrorizing them into subservience.

Or is all this because of Israel too (along with the weather)?

 

[creation]

Gee, couldn't possibly have anything to do with fact that Nasser had also thrown out the UN, moved a massive army to the border, signed a military cooperation alliance with Syria, and made a series of public pronouncements that the end was nigh and that Israel was imminently to be annihilated?

Is that your answer to ;

By the way, why did Israel claim to be mortally dependent on trade through Eilat?

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

or something else?

I mean, with all that and Israel diging thousands of graves and a somber mood throughout the country of facing possibly the end of their nation, why wouldn't they agree to nonsensical and irrelevant arbitration while Egypt continued to prepare to destroy them?

Egypt was going to destroy them? With what?

I'm pretty sure there is no international law requiring Israel to be stupid, though many of its opponents seem to believe this is THE cornerstone of international law.

??

So why not just come out and say it. Since Israel had no real right to exist, it was an obvious aggressor because it didn't sit back and act like a special needs with its head in the sand about the goodwill of its enemies and the concern of the international community for law and justice and all that nonsense.

Cause that's what you really think, right? You just know that position is untenable and unpalatable so you dress it up with distorted facts and omissions in order to create a parallel universe where up was down, down was up, and Israel was the aggressor for defending itself from open aggression.

Interesting, can you explain to us whats defensive about striking first while also sitting on enemy territory and settling it?

 

[justabubba]

I still don't see what any of this has to do with Iran, which is developing nuclear weapons in violation of ITS treaty agreements (Israel was never a party to the non-proliferation treaty and never received assistance or access to technology under the treaty). Iran which has been financing and supplying weapons for a hot war against the US in Iraq and against Israel through Hezbollah and Hamas. Iran which has directed terrorist attacks against civilian targets in Argentina. Iran which keeps its own people under a brutal occupation, terrorizing them into subservience.

Or is all this because of Israel too (along with the weather)?

yep. it's only a matter of time before iran also chooses to no longer remain a signatory to the treaty, like israel
when that happens, you know they are on the cusp of testing

 

[Apocalypse]

Indeed.

By the way, why did Israel claim to be mortally dependent on trade through Eilat?

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

You are now trying to argue that Israel wasn't using the port anyway.
This is, I'm afraid, a weak argument that does not even attempt to deny the fact that the war was not started by Israel.

 

[ido_]

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

After Eygpt nationlized the Suez cannel Israel could send her trading fleet to the far east either via Eilat to the red sea or by circling Africa.

Why, if Israel felt so strongly about its right to sail these straits, didnt it move to accept arbitration by the world court as Nasser had previously aquiesced to?

After the Sinai war in 1956 the UN appointed a peace keeping force to Sinai. PM Ben Gurion agreed to remove Israeli troops from Sinai but argued that if Eygpt will close the straits in the future it will be a catalyst for war

Further, when was Israeli flagged shipping last sailing through these straits from Eilat before the 67 attack?

I couldn't find any refference but I found this on wiki:

During the 1960s ZIM started to turn its focus to cargo ships, and obtained several special-purpose vessels, including refrigerated shipping, and oil tankers. ZIM transported crude oil from Iran to Israel, and oil byproducts from Israel to Europe.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zim_Integrated_Shipping_Services]Zim Integrated Shipping Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[mbig]

Because I asked Apocalypse to give out the usual Israeli arguments and you obliged for us. For which Im grateful.

these questions are my counter. Problem?

Yes Problem.

You didn't acknowledge anything but the two previously cited instances which you downplayed by taking them out of Context.

And further, thru nitpicking Non-sequitor questions Such as the So-what "why did Egypt send their ambassador"... While trying to ignore all the major events I cited.

ie these silly what ifs:

Further, if Israel was in peril then why did few top Israelis and certainly not the CIA fear the power of the arabs?

Why, if israel was in peril did egypt agree to send its ambassador to the US to discuss diplomatic settlement of the straits issue?

Non-starters Relative to the Major actions/statements cited in my post 72 re Arab leaders.

Which you haven't dwalt with at all.

 

[creation]

You are now trying to argue that Israel wasn't using the port anyway.
This is, I'm afraid, a weak argument that does not even attempt to deny the fact that the war was not started by Israel.

Its just one reason for the lack of justification for attack. Why using the, closing of the straits argument doesnt work.

 

[creation]

Yes Problem.

You didn't acknowledge anything but the two previously cited instances which you downplayed by taking them out of Context.

And further, thru nitpicking Non-sequitor questions Such as the So-what "why did Egypt send their ambassador"... While trying to ignore all the major events I cited.

Really? Why wasnt egyptian diplomacy a major event that neatly counters your stuff about Egyptian politicians statements?

 

[Apocalypse]

Its just one reason for the lack of justification for attack. Why using the, closing of the straits argument doesnt work.

It doesn't work from an irrational point of view.

To anyone else, blocking the port to Israeli ships, being added to the UN peacekeeping forces banishing and the huge mobilization of troops along the Egyptian-Israeli border is more than enough justification.