Rightwingnutjob
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- Jul 1, 2010
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- Libertarian
Healthcare should be a RIGHT, and we can all contribute either with money or some kind of community service, like cleaning hospital beds. The greatest asset of this country is our people, and we should not treat them like garbage because they dont make a lot of money.
That's true as well. I just put it as other to keep things on topic.Violent deaths (i.e. shootings, etc) are also higher in the US then many other places (such as Japan, UK) in the world. Vicitims of violent deaths tend to be younger, so, like car accidednts, they have a greater impact on life expectancy than other types of deaths.
I sure did, thank you for reminding me of that.You also forgot the fact that the US counts a live birth much differently then the rest of the world.
Yeah, it again speaks to the dishonesty of the WHO international statistics.The US counts a live birth if the infant shows any sign of life. Other countries will only count a live birth if the baby has certain weight, height, circumfrance measurements. Teen pregnancies and fertiliity treatments are also much higher in the US then most other countries. All things that can affect numbers.
Violent deaths (i.e. shootings, etc) are also higher in the US then many other places (such as Japan, UK) in the world. Vicitims of violent deaths tend to be younger, so, like car accidednts, they have a greater impact on life expectancy than other types of deaths.
You also forgot the fact that the US counts a live birth much differently then the rest of the world. The US counts a live birth if the infant shows any sign of life. Other countries will only count a live birth if the baby has certain weight, height, circumfrance measurements.
Teen pregnancies
and fertiliity treatments are also much higher in the US then most other countries. All things that can affect numbers.
Car accidents = more health issues and fatalities from accidents. Very simple actuarial fact.LOL talk about being inaccurate and muddying the waters. What exactly does owning less cars have to do with health?More money equals more availability of risky behavior to those less disciplined. Per Capita Income Around the World Using the most common PPP method the U.S. is the third in the world, Luxemburg has a favorable banking economy so they are an odd case. But you get the point, have fun spinning your way out of that.And less disposable income.. what... on earth does that have to do with it.. and I am not even sure that is correct. Prove it.
Wow, you really didn't understand at all did you? It's very simple, Spain, France, etc. have a similar lifestyle and almost universal cultural and dietary norms, the U.S. is regional with those regions having completely different lifestyles and dietary choices. Having nothing to do with race makeup. Stretch much?Eh? Seriously where do you get this crap. What on earth does this have to do with the statistic? Are you blaming the blacks or something?It's not hardly an irrelevant statistic, its completely irrelevant.It is hardly an irrelevant statistic.It's been addressed already, infant mortality comparisons are incompatible.It shows how many children die in a country before they are 5. Now this can be accidents or it can be disease. Are you claiming that US parents are so bad at parenting that they kill their children more than other nations?
And a more studious poster has already proven your data wrong......so......?Actually that is common place in ALL countries.. so that is evened out! Most countries have limits on enrolment into medical schools, including the UK.
And that is with the WHO biased presentation. If you actually used appropriate measurements it would be a lopsided US win. What's your point?yes you guys do have a few stats you are better at. So that is what.. 4 out of how many hundred? Got any more.. Yes I know about the cancer statistics.
Obviously not if you are losing in the sanitation department.....here's a hint, in healthcare that's pretty important.And sanitation problems are often because that the cleaning has been outsourced to private companies. Our standards are as good as American standards when it comes to sanitation, but because of the gutting of the NHS, hospitals have been forced to privatize the cleaning of hospitals, and that has meant that the cleaning has suffered. It happened in Denmark as well.
Because you lose that one.As for "satisfaction scores", it is not exactly a statistic that is comparable.Because they've been conditioned to expect entitlements, so again they settle for less. This doesn't improve dissatisfaction, only accepts it and apologizes for it.People might not be satisfied enough with the NHS, but if you ask them if it should be privatised and broken up then you would find that a huge majority would say no.Except when they get denied or have to wait for critical surgeries of course.Hell France and Spain have some of the best healthcare systems in the world, and the population are never satisfied with them and yet they would never ever get rid of them.
Actually, not really. It's pretty easy to get an appointment within weeks versus quarters, half-years, etc. You lose on that point as well.As for waiting lists.. you do know they exist in your oh so perfect system right?Half of all statistics are made up on the spot. Seriously, did you just pull that out of thin air? That is a bull**** claim if I've ever heard one.Plus it is easy to cut waiting lists if you dont cover more than 60% of your population and the rest just die at home or in emergency rooms when it is too late...
Feel free to use your source that's as reputable as an organization as WHO.LaMidRighter said:First of all I've seen the WHO report myself. Considering they are pro-UHC biased and just threw out blanket numbers with no analysis it's not surprising people outside of the health or insurance industry who want handouts for all use their numbers blindly.
What federal law is that? Are you talking about in 1997 when, to save money and prevent a doctor glut, Congress capped the number of residents that Medicare will pay for at about 80,000 a year.LaMidRighter said:The U.S. has a doctor shortage due to legally limited doctor enrollment by federal law in which the AMA lobbied for in the early part of the 1900's, guess your little WHO propoganda piece didn't give you that piece of info did it?
Rightwingnutjob said:Some of the dirt bags I see out there disgust me.
So if a system is not picture perfect (whose standards should we use?), let's just not do it at all?Rightwingnutjob said:Now the woman who works 60 hours a week as a single mother to support two kids going to college and is struggling to buy enough food for herself? Sure, I'll help that person.
And it is colder in Sweden so there is a larger chance people freeze to death. Lets not forget it is also darker there, so people can die of depression. How about in Souther Europe where there is a higher risk of dehydration during the summer, or Greece has a lot of forest fires, or floods in Poland, or left over radiation from Chernobyl and on and on.. in other words... a lame excuse. It statistically means nothing. The only thing that might have a statistical impact is the diet of some regions of the world, but even then it is not really worth mentioning too much since it is evening it self out as even these nations are turning to the same food stuffs as American's.
Actually another lie by the US right wing. While you are correct countries have different rules on birth, the actual difference is statistically non existent. For example, some countries say that children born before 23 weeks of gestation are not counted as live births. Yes that is different than the US version of any child born is considered live, however what your right wing friends forget to mention is that there is a only a handful if that many babies born under 23 weeks of gestation that have ever lived. Hence those few children around the world that have been born before 23 weeks of gestation and lived ... it is statistically irrelevant when talking about thousands of births a year. And if you think for a second that European doctors dont try to save a child born under 23 weeks then you are frankly a moron.. of course they do. But the chance of such a child surviving is under 1% and at some point every medical professional has to make the call if the amount of energy and money spent on trying to save a lost cause is worth it. If a child is born at say 10 weeks, even in the US... it is considered dead at birth since it can survive.
Yes, that is another subject.
Hmm prove your fertility treatment claim. Fertility treatments are very common here in Europe. But what the hell does it have to do with health statistics? As for effecting the numbers.. how exactly does teen pregnancy effect child mortality rates under 5 years? Are you saying your teens murder their kids?
Your sarcasm aside, you sort of make the point. Sure...every country has different risks, dangers, etc. And for expediency sake people often give truth to the old quote statistics dont lie, statisticians do. makes it kind of hard to give those figures any type of credibility doesn it?
let me ask you...when discussing Cubas health care and statistics who do you think people think of...this
or this?
Or this?
No...of course not. They think of the fancy hotels rich tourists go to to get their plastic surgeries and their 'free health care'.
WORLDS of differences...
Probably about as much as they think about the following when talking of U.S. superior medical system.VanceMack said:let me ask you...when discussing Cubas health care and statistics who do you think people think of...this
I'm not real sure what exactly you were saying due to your strange sentence structure, but I'll take a stab anyway.So if a system is not picture perfect (whose standards should we use?), let's just not do it at all?
They prefer mediocore over priced healthcare to real change that would improve their lives. Cause if Gov't didn't run it.. they might be *GASP* responsible for their own lives again.
Can't have that.
Probably about as much as they think about the following when talking of U.S. superior medical system.
Inglewood, Ca free clinic
2007 Remote Area Medical Volunteer Corps (RAM) free clinic in Wise, Virginia
Lining up for medical care in Va.
When RAM came to Knoxville, Tennessee, in January, people started arriving at midnight, even though the doors did not open until seven -- and temperatures dropped below freezing that night. Asked why they'd come to early, people said they "just wanted to be seen" by a medical professional.
How can you compare a free clinic to actual hospital and doctor's office conditions and expect it to show that U.S. health care is poor? In all of your pictures I didn't see any 'filth' or sanitation issues, just simple, temporary setups.
Probably about as much as they think about the following when talking of U.S. superior medical system.
When RAM came to Knoxville, Tennessee, in January, people started arriving at midnight, even though the doors did not open until seven -- and temperatures dropped below freezing that night. Asked why they'd come to early, people said they "just wanted to be seen" by a medical professional.
Probably about as much as they think about the following when talking of U.S. superior medical system.
When RAM came to Knoxville, Tennessee, in January, people started arriving at midnight, even though the doors did not open until seven -- and temperatures dropped below freezing that night. Asked why they'd come to early, people said they "just wanted to be seen" by a medical professional.
We are not talking about 3rd world countries, but comparable western industrialized countries.
And it is colder in Sweden so there is a larger chance people freeze to death. Lets not forget it is also darker there, so people can die of depression. How about in Souther Europe where there is a higher risk of dehydration during the summer, or Greece has a lot of forest fires, or floods in Poland, or left over radiation from Chernobyl and on and on.. in other words... a lame excuse.
He is a dishonest debator, which is why I have him on ignore.How can you compare a free clinic to actual hospital and doctor's office conditions and expect it to show that U.S. health care is poor? In all of your pictures I didn't see any 'filth' or sanitation issues, just simple, temporary setups.
Car accidents = more health issues and fatalities from accidents. Very simple actuarial fact.
Yes, but how big a statistical hit does it have on life expectancy? And so what frankly? They died, and does not matter how they died... they did not live as long as others.. that is the point of the freaking statistics. That is why life expectancy in say Iraq has fallen because they are killing each other.
And the US has 765 cars per 1000 people and the UK 450 cars per 1000 people.. and that some how should twist life expectancy numbers by so much? I doubt that. Luxembourg has similar car ownership stats as that of the US (697 vs 765) and their life expectancy is higher than that of the US. What is your next excuse, that the US is a large country?
More money equals more availability of risky behavior to those less disciplined. Per Capita Income Around the World Using the most common PPP method the U.S. is the third in the world, Luxemburg has a favorable banking economy so they are an odd case. But you get the point, have fun spinning your way out of that.
Easy, you claim disposable income, and you show average income. Big difference. I can have a huge income but low disposable income because I have debt repayments and similar that eat up my income.
And even if American's have more disposable income, then why on earth would it not only give a rise to "risky behaviour" that could remotely impact the life expectancy numbers? Do you do more Russian roulette, more drinking (lol yea right) or more drugs...
And again frankly so what if it did? It is just an excuse, it changes nothing on the statistical comparison. You guys still dont live longer than brits, regardless of what kills you off. The Brits are slowly killing themselves with drinking, should we take that out of their statistics then?
Wow, you really didn't understand at all did you? It's very simple, Spain, France, etc. have a similar lifestyle and almost universal cultural and dietary norms, the U.S. is regional with those regions having completely different lifestyles and dietary choices. Having nothing to do with race makeup. Stretch much?
Oh I do understand it, but you dont. The US is not that different than the UK when it comes to dietary norms or lifestyle. In fact I would claim the Brits have you beaten when it comes to drinking hands down.. they are a nation of binge drinkers, and their food staples are not exactly healthy by any means... bacon and eggs and beans for breakfast.. And since we are talking about the UK and US, then ...
As for Spain and France.. I did say that the Mediterranean diet could make a difference on some countries, but it does not with Northern European countries who beat the crap out of the US when it comes to health statistics.. even the Germans, the fattest nation in Europe. And even that is changing because the countries that had a traditional Mediterranean diet are moving more and more over to the US type of diet... which in fact most of Europe is doing.
It's not hardly an irrelevant statistic, its completely irrelevant. It's been addressed already, infant mortality comparisons are incompatible.
No you choose to ignore facts because you dont believe your eyes. Not my fault. They are compatible on every front, since the differences are statistical non relevant.
On top of that I was not talking about infant mortality rates but child mortality of 5 and under. There is a difference.
And that is with the WHO biased presentation. If you actually used appropriate measurements it would be a lopsided US win. What's your point?
With appropriate measurements you mean pro US measurements instead of unbiased fair measurements? I know the US right wing has the last 2 years done everything to try discredit the WHO and other statistical organisations because their stats showed the US in a bad light, but the fact is the right wing in the US is WRONG and have been caught in out right lies time and time again. Using lame excuses to dismiss WHO statistics is frankly pathetic.
Listen.. the numbers WHO get, come from your own government. Not my fault you dont agree with your own governments numbers. If you want to pad your own statistics to rank higher, then by all means do it. Take out the blacks, and hispanics and any other undisireables that hurt your statistics.. be my guest and turn into a new China when it comes to statistical numbers.. numbers that no one trusts or believe.
Obviously not if you are losing in the sanitation department.....here's a hint, in healthcare that's pretty important.
Heres a hint.. I know, I have worked in the business. And hint... it is always where cost cutting hits first. And yes the UK is having problems, but that is the UK.
Because you lose that one. Because they've been conditioned to expect entitlements, so again they settle for less. This doesn't improve dissatisfaction, only accepts it and apologizes for it.
And so what. We have a welfare state and we like it.. deal with it. We want UHC, and most sane and civilized countries want it also. It is cheaper if we all pitch in, instead of being egotistical and only think about one self. It is our choice and it has been a wise choice. We pay less and get the same if not more.. sounds like a great deal to me
Except when they get denied or have to wait for critical surgeries of course.
No one waits for critical surgeries. More right wing propaganda. As for getting denied treatment. I would wager it happens less here than in the US. I have rarely heard of anyone being denied treatment here unless it was experimental treatment that was cost prohibitive. On the other hand stories of people being denied treatment in the US are common place.
Actually, not really. It's pretty easy to get an appointment within weeks versus quarters, half-years, etc. You lose on that point as well. Half of all statistics are made up on the spot. Seriously, did you just pull that out of thin air? That is a bull**** claim if I've ever heard one.
No you loose yet again.
Half the statistics are made up on the spot? I provided links to almost all my statistics for god sake. Is it the 60% comment.. okay I take it back. It is only according to the US census about 16% that dont have insurance.
And do you pull your views out of thin air? You do know that most countries have maximum waiting list laws right? Cancer is within 2 to 3 weeks (depends on country), non serious is with in 3 months tops in most countries. So quarters and half years.. do not exist in most countries.
Need A Mammogram? It Could Take A While - TIME
And for the record.. US hospitals dont release waiting times to the public for the most part. I once found a statistic but it was behind a pay site of the American Hospital something..
But that does not mean there is no waiting times. It is only logical since the US has less and less hospitals and doctors but more and more people. Of course if you have enough money, then waiting times are not a problem.. same in Europe btw... if you have the money, then go to a private hospital if you dont want to wait a few weeks for an operation that is non life threatning. As for seeing specialists or doctors.. I can get access on a day to day basis to my doctor and get appointments with specialists within a weeks often (depends on what kind of course) for non critical issues. Critical issues of course give access immediately.
For example. My mother had some sores on her head that would not heal, so she went to her doctor who said that it might be skin cancer. 2 days later she was with a specialist and got diagnosed. They did preliminary treatment but she needed an operation on one part of the skin, so they gave her a choice of when to get her treatment and operation and it was within 3 weeks from diagnosed .. and yes it was not the bad kind of skin cancer so it did not need immediate treatment. Her cost.. about 5 euros of petrol and bottle of sparkly water or two. Had it been the serious kind, then she would have been admitted instantly and treated. Thank god it was not now.. now she has to walk around with a hat and factor 50 sun cream heh..
Point is.. she was not afraid of the cost of going to the doctor to get it looked at, so they caught it early.
I'm just going to save myself any future headaches an address the first misinformed point. Are you familiar at all with how a mortality table works? Seriously AT ALL? Mortality tables look at deaths per x in y time in all classifications. Morbidity tables break that down further, the WHO uses mortality as a general weight. So yes, everything statistically affects it.Yes, but how big a statistical hit does it have on life expectancy? And so what frankly? They died, and does not matter how they died... they did not live as long as others.. that is the point of the freaking statistics. That is why life expectancy in say Iraq has fallen because they are killing each other.
And the US has 765 cars per 1000 people and the UK 450 cars per 1000 people.. and that some how should twist life expectancy numbers by so much? I doubt that. Luxembourg has similar car ownership stats as that of the US (697 vs 765) and their life expectancy is higher than that of the US. What is your next excuse, that the US is a large country?
Easy, you claim disposable income, and you show average income. Big difference. I can have a huge income but low disposable income because I have debt repayments and similar that eat up my income.
And even if American's have more disposable income, then why on earth would it not only give a rise to "risky behaviour" that could remotely impact the life expectancy numbers? Do you do more Russian roulette, more drinking (lol yea right) or more drugs...
And again frankly so what if it did? It is just an excuse, it changes nothing on the statistical comparison. You guys still dont live longer than brits, regardless of what kills you off. The Brits are slowly killing themselves with drinking, should we take that out of their statistics then?
Oh I do understand it, but you dont. The US is not that different than the UK when it comes to dietary norms or lifestyle. In fact I would claim the Brits have you beaten when it comes to drinking hands down.. they are a nation of binge drinkers, and their food staples are not exactly healthy by any means... bacon and eggs and beans for breakfast.. And since we are talking about the UK and US, then ...
As for Spain and France.. I did say that the Mediterranean diet could make a difference on some countries, but it does not with Northern European countries who beat the crap out of the US when it comes to health statistics.. even the Germans, the fattest nation in Europe. And even that is changing because the countries that had a traditional Mediterranean diet are moving more and more over to the US type of diet... which in fact most of Europe is doing.
No you choose to ignore facts because you dont believe your eyes. Not my fault. They are compatible on every front, since the differences are statistical non relevant.
On top of that I was not talking about infant mortality rates but child mortality of 5 and under. There is a difference.
With appropriate measurements you mean pro US measurements instead of unbiased fair measurements? I know the US right wing has the last 2 years done everything to try discredit the WHO and other statistical organisations because their stats showed the US in a bad light, but the fact is the right wing in the US is WRONG and have been caught in out right lies time and time again. Using lame excuses to dismiss WHO statistics is frankly pathetic.
Listen.. the numbers WHO get, come from your own government. Not my fault you dont agree with your own governments numbers. If you want to pad your own statistics to rank higher, then by all means do it. Take out the blacks, and hispanics and any other undisireables that hurt your statistics.. be my guest and turn into a new China when it comes to statistical numbers.. numbers that no one trusts or believe.
Heres a hint.. I know, I have worked in the business. And hint... it is always where cost cutting hits first. And yes the UK is having problems, but that is the UK.
And so what. We have a welfare state and we like it.. deal with it. We want UHC, and most sane and civilized countries want it also. It is cheaper if we all pitch in, instead of being egotistical and only think about one self. It is our choice and it has been a wise choice. We pay less and get the same if not more.. sounds like a great deal to me
No one waits for critical surgeries. More right wing propaganda. As for getting denied treatment. I would wager it happens less here than in the US. I have rarely heard of anyone being denied treatment here unless it was experimental treatment that was cost prohibitive. On the other hand stories of people being denied treatment in the US are common place.
No you loose yet again.
Half the statistics are made up on the spot? I provided links to almost all my statistics for god sake. Is it the 60% comment.. okay I take it back. It is only according to the US census about 16% that dont have insurance.
And do you pull your views out of thin air? You do know that most countries have maximum waiting list laws right? Cancer is within 2 to 3 weeks (depends on country), non serious is with in 3 months tops in most countries. So quarters and half years.. do not exist in most countries.
Need A Mammogram? It Could Take A While - TIME
And for the record.. US hospitals dont release waiting times to the public for the most part. I once found a statistic but it was behind a pay site of the American Hospital something..
But that does not mean there is no waiting times. It is only logical since the US has less and less hospitals and doctors but more and more people. Of course if you have enough money, then waiting times are not a problem.. same in Europe btw... if you have the money, then go to a private hospital if you dont want to wait a few weeks for an operation that is non life threatning. As for seeing specialists or doctors.. I can get access on a day to day basis to my doctor and get appointments with specialists within a weeks often (depends on what kind of course) for non critical issues. Critical issues of course give access immediately.
For example. My mother had some sores on her head that would not heal, so she went to her doctor who said that it might be skin cancer. 2 days later she was with a specialist and got diagnosed. They did preliminary treatment but she needed an operation on one part of the skin, so they gave her a choice of when to get her treatment and operation and it was within 3 weeks from diagnosed .. and yes it was not the bad kind of skin cancer so it did not need immediate treatment. Her cost.. about 5 euros of petrol and bottle of sparkly water or two. Had it been the serious kind, then she would have been admitted instantly and treated. Thank god it was not now.. now she has to walk around with a hat and factor 50 sun cream heh..
Point is.. she was not afraid of the cost of going to the doctor to get it looked at, so they caught it early.
Yes, but how big a statistical hit does it have on life expectancy? And so what frankly? They died, and does not matter how they died... they did not live as long as others.. that is the point of the freaking statistics. That is why life expectancy in say Iraq has fallen because they are killing each other.
Duno. Why don't you point to statistics that show that people in Sweden are more likely than people in the US to freeze to death. Then find statistics that people are dying in S.Europe due to dehydration in greater numbers than are dying in the US. Then show that the people that are dying due to those causes tend to be young, and are therefore having a greater impact on life expectancy then when an older individual dies due to the same reason.
People are more likely to die in the US due to violence and due to an MVA then in other nations that are "ahead of us" in the WHO reprot.
These are causes of death that are not very likely to be solved by "nationalized healthcare".
And in both cases, younger people are far more likely to be victims than the older, items that are not taken into account in the WHO report when ranking things such as life expectancy. Which makes those statistics fairly useless in determining effectivness of a nations healthcare system.
Because the fact that they are killing each other in Iraq should not be used by people with an agenda to disparage their health care systems. When trying to prove a point that Iraq's healthcare system and delivery is inadequate, you would want to remove those deaths caused by suicide bombers, and gun shot wounds. At least if you want to be honest. You just admitted that those causes of death are impacting life expetancy in that country. Would giving them nationalized healthcare improve that? Unlikely, unless they can reattach explded body parts that get strewn across the country for blocks.
Same way you would want to remove the amount of violent deaths and MVAs in the US, since we have much greater number of violent deaths than in say Japan, or motor vehicle accidents than say those in France. At least if you are trying to prove the point that the US health care system is worse then those country's.
If you are just looking to see which country you are most likely to live longer in, without regard to healthcare systems, then the WHO report is just perfect. But to use that report to prove that the US healthcare system sucks, is disingenuous at best outright lying at worst.
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