Britain isolated in Europe

Wessexman said:

I had my British citizenship before I had my Australian. I grew up in England(in Dorset), have lived there longer than Australia and will soon enough return for the rest of my life. I'm not sure what your point is.

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You have clarified your position. My point remains that if you do not live in a country it is hard to talk about it as 'we' because you are not involved in the 'we'.

Wessexman said:

Actually they are my ancestors as well, I have a Scottish surname. I'm not sure how your reply has anything to do with the topic of utilitarian arguments. The appeal of the Scottish nationalists is not utilitarian, it is not so much about economic growth or income or any of that nonsense. It is about history, culture and imagination.

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and I would say again, here you do not know what you are talking about. The current appeal of Independence comes from a combination of oil and feeling that we have not been represented by the British government for 30 years or so. The desire for independence is a mixture of political and economic. You can learn at your leisure

Together we can make Scotland better. | Scottish National Party

Wessexman said:

Like the fact the Left is suddenly attacking Cameron for not apparently doing enough for our trade or financial sector, this sort of argument seems to strike me as somewhat inconsistent in the context.

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rather a sly coup by the far right of the conservative party I would say.

Now back to today. LibDem's fighting back BBC News - Google Search

I'm off Christmas shopping. See you later

alexa said:

You have clarified your position. My point remains that if you do not live in a country it is hard to talk about it as 'we' because you are not involved in the 'we'.

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That at best seems like a matter of opinion. It doesn't really change the facts about our economic relationship with the EU. They sell more to us than we buy off them, plus it is illegal according to international law, so they are hardly likely to rack up protection. At best they can try and take mostly trivial, but perhaps irritating retaliatory action.

I can't really understand what the Europhiles and Left even mean by our interest. Clegg was talking about how we are not going to be like bulldogs isolated from Europe and scorned by Washington, but his alternative is to simply add our voice to 26+ others in ever closer union of the EU. Yes, we would have one of the louder voices, but we hardly bring back our imperial lustre by such a positioning. It is hardly going to give us great international weight as Englishmen or Brits, rather than one day as Europeans, so it is highly equivocal, as far as I can see.

and I would say again, here you do not know what you are talking about. The current appeal of Independence comes from a combination of oil and feeling that we have not been represented by the British government for 30 years or so. The desire for independence is a mixture of political and economic. You can learn at your leisure

Together we can make Scotland better. | Scottish National Party

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As far as I know the oil is mostly Shetland oil. The Shetland Islands are at best ambiguous about Scottish nationalism and have plenty of their own separatist sentiments. They have spoken about going their own way if Scotland declares independence. I'm not particularly against Scottish independence, but the situation is complex. I think it is the other factors that make Scots willing to take the plunge, but the primary, if not sufficient, cause is national feeling. Many Scots don't allow this feeling to override what they feel are their more prosaic and material interests, but it is not these interests, but the national feeling, history and culture, which makes independence any sort of option or desire.

rather a sly coup by the far right of the conservative party I would say.

Now back to today. LibDem's fighting back BBC News - Google Search

I'm off Christmas shopping. See you later

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As all the polls show, including those in the last few days, the EU is not popular in Britain. So the Tory backbenchers speak for Britain, or England, in this regard, even if they are a little more intense in their feelings than the man in the street. Not that I think it matters, Cameron stood up, for once, for England qua England, let the current popular feeling think what they will.

By the way, has anyone else noted the terrible BBC coverage of this incident? I've seen hardly a positive word said, and nothing about national identity and sovereignty, particularly on the News bulletins. Their coverage has been almost identical to the Guardian and that ilk, and in marked contrast to most of the rest of the large, British newspapers. Of course I only get BBC World here, but it is apparently much the same in Britain.

Biased BBC: THAT ISOLATED FEELING
Biased BBC: SPINNING FOR BRUSSELS
Cameron enjoys his best ever newspaper coverage but the BBC is spinning for Brussels The Tory Diary
EU treaty change: How Europhile BBC turned Cameron's veto triumph into disaster | Mail Online

Quite interesting.

Wessexman said:

I'm an Englishman, well half an Englishman anyway(though almost totally at heart), temporarily separated from blighty.

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Whoa, long time no see.
You were one of my favorite posters.

Not to derail, it's just good to see you back. :2wave:

Good to see you again Harry. I've probably changed a bit since I was last here, I'm even more traditionalist. Not sure I'll be here long, but good to speak to you again while I am.

Wessexman said:

Good to see you again Harry. I've probably changed a bit since I was last here, I'm even more traditionalist. Not sure I'll be here long, but good to speak to you again while I am.

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That's alright, the fact the you were (and probably still are) well read and reasoned made it delightful to read your posts.

I have always found my writings skills have let me done when it comes to expressing myself. A lot of this has to do with the British and Australian education systems of recent decades(I'm under 25), where grammar and such are hardly taught in any depth any more, but no doubt I could have done more to remedy this myself

alexa said:

I am half Irish but until I pay my £150 or so for citizenship I could hardly be called Irish and until I live there I doubt if I will know all that well what is going on.


and indeed here we have evidence of your lack of knowledge of your ancestor's nearest neighbours. Scotland is run by the SNP. The SNP support in Scotland is now over 50% of the population, more than support for all the other parties put together. We are due a referendum on independence in the next 2 or three years. Nothing sudden here.

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I wont hold my breath until the referendum because we all know Scotland has been before. Both my parents are scottish and all my family live in Scotland, they say they want to be independent but when push comes to shove they can never cut the cord.

It's funny to see some reactions. Poor little Britain and the bad guys from the EU. Britain already has enough special rights and protections. The UK rebate and Schengen agreement ....

But that's obviously not enough. Britain was not willing to compromise. The EU consists of 27 member states! It's not Britain and the rest of europe.

We work together with Airbus, the European Space Agency (ESA), the NATO and on many other fields. It is simply ridiculous to throw this all away! :roll:

Private Hudson said:

It's funny to see some reactions. Poor little Britain and the bad guys from the EU. Britain already has enough special rights and protections. The UK rebate and Schengen agreement ....

But that's obviously not enough. Britain was not willing to compromise. The EU consists of 27 member states! It's not Britain and the rest of europe.

We work together with Airbus, the European Space Agency (ESA), the NATO and on many other fields. It is simply ridiculous to throw this all away! :roll:

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The point is that we can still cooperate on these issues without agreeing to an economic suicide pact.

Red_Dave said:

The point is that we can still cooperate on these issues without agreeing to an economic suicide pact.

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Can we? Why should we let the UK get all the perks but none of the pain?

PeteEU said:

Can we? Why should we let the UK get all the perks but none of the pain?

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The only perk I can think of is free trade, and some corporation treaties. They benefit both Britain and Europe. Why should they get pain for that.

I think Europeans are looking at international diplomacy in the wrong way. One of the main problems in Europe is that they are not making bilateral treaties like the rest of the world. Instead they are imposing rules on each other and it is all about getting the most perks. Of course there is going to be conflict, because some countries get more perks than others.

PeteEU said:

Can we? Why should we let the UK get all the perks but none of the pain?

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Perks....Perks lol pull the other one mate! As for the pain was the bailout of Ireland not enough pain?

Wessexman said:

That at best seems like a matter of opinion.

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No, it means when you say 'we', you are only talking about your ancestry in the same way as I would if I used the world 'we' when speaking of Eire. I do not live there. I do not know what life is like there. I could read about how they live but it would still be 'them' not me, unless I took up my right of Irish citizenship and went there to live. Then and only then would it be we. Only then would I have experience of what it was like to live in Ireland. Your 'we' is Australia. It is not real to say 'we' as if you were someone living in the UK. It is simply your fantasy.

Wessexman said:

As far as I know the oil is mostly Shetland oil. The Shetland Islands are at best ambiguous about Scottish nationalism and have plenty of their own separatist sentiments. They have spoken about going their own way if Scotland declares independence.

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This is so off topic. Briefly Shetland is Scottish. All of Scotland will be affected if independence is voted for.

Wessexman said:

I'm not particularly against Scottish independence,

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like we care, really.

Wessexman said:

but the situation is complex. I think it is the other factors that make Scots willing to take the plunge, but the primary, if not sufficient, cause is national feeling. Many Scots don't allow this feeling to override what they feel are their more prosaic and material interests, but it is not these interests, but the national feeling, history and culture, which makes independence any sort of option or desire.

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You are projecting your fantasy of the reasons why you would 'plunge' for independence. The Scottish people have no intention of plunging and the Scottish people include all those who have come from other countries and joined us. Scotland is an inclusive country. Interest in Independence got started in a big way with the discovery of oil providing an economic possibility (as it did with the 22,000 people who live in Shetland). There is zero stopping Scotland having a cultural identity of her own while being a part of the UK. That has zero to do with it. Developing herself in the way she wants might be a different issue.

We have drifted politically from Westminster Government and as people get more experience of us making our own decisions through devolution the desire to make them all increases.

Obviously economics is an extremely important aspect

65% would back independence for just £1.37 a day

and in that if London makes Economic choices which are not in Scotland's interest, it is likely to help the SNP and independence.


If you want to learn a bit about this we here are a couple of threads

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/99096-why-scottish-independence.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/98904-multicultural-scottish-parliament-swears.html

I have spent some time answering these issues but this is not a thread on Scottish Independence, if you have any more to say I suggest you do it in one of those threads and so not take this one off topic.

Wessexman said:

As all the polls show, including those in the last few days, the EU is not popular in Britain. So the Tory backbenchers speak for Britain, or England, in this regard,

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He was standing up for15% of Parliament who wish to leave the EU.

Leading article: Isolation that damages both Britain and Europe - Leading Articles - Opinion - The Independent

We had a thread on polls on this. Yes, there have been a lot of polls saying when asked that people were not happy with the EU but when it was asked differently, when they were asked their priorities the EU came pretty low down meaning that most people did not think of it too much. Possibly that should change.

PeteEU said:

Can we? Why should we let the UK get all the perks but none of the pain?

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Why should Norway? or any other country that benefits from trade and cooperation with the EU (U.S Israel Turkey etc.) if the pain is being subservient to foriegners (as the video i posted illustrates) the we can skip on the perks. Why can trade with the commonwealth countries currently being screwed over by import tarrifs.

alexa said:

No, it means when you say 'we', you are only talking about your ancestry in the same way as I would if I used the world 'we' when speaking of Eire. I do not live there. I do not know what life is like there. I could read about how they live but it would still be 'them' not me, unless I took up my right of Irish citizenship and went there to live. Then and only then would it be we. Only then would I have experience of what it was like to live in Ireland. Your 'we' is Australia. It is not real to say 'we' as if you were someone living in the UK. It is simply your fantasy.

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Touchy aren't we. As I said, it is a matter of opinion and I am quite different to you and your relationship to Ireland. I have no intention of taking on board your objection, by the way, it is quite underhanded and mean spirited. It also seems very much like you are making it because I disagree with you, and if I were on your side over Europe you'd never have made a sound.

This is so off topic. Briefly Shetland is Scottish. All of Scotland will be affected if independence is voted for.

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If you can choose independence for yourself, why can't the Shetlanders? They certainly could be said to be considering going their own way, and it is mostly their oil, not yours.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like we care, really.

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Being so petulant is hardly very grown up.

You are projecting your fantasy of the reasons why you would 'plunge' for independence. The Scottish people have no intention of plunging and the Scottish people include all those who have come from other countries and joined us. Scotland is an inclusive country. Interest in Independence got started in a big way with the discovery of oil providing an economic possibility (as it did with the 22,000 people who live in Shetland). There is zero stopping Scotland having a cultural identity of her own while being a part of the UK. That has zero to do with it. Developing herself in the way she wants might be a different issue.

We have drifted politically from Westminster Government and as people get more experience of us making our own decisions through devolution the desire to make them all increases.

Obviously economics is an extremely important aspect

65% would back independence for just £1.37 a day

and in that if London makes Economic choices which are not in Scotland's interest, it is likely to help the SNP and independence.


If you want to learn a bit about this we here are a couple of threads

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/99096-why-scottish-independence.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/98904-multicultural-scottish-parliament-swears.html

I have spent some time answering these issues but this is not a thread on Scottish Independence, if you have any more to say I suggest you do it in one of those threads and so not take this one off topic.

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I simply think you are wrong here. The final cause of independence, whatever the efficient causes, will be national feeling.

He was standing up for15% of Parliament who wish to leave the EU.

Leading article: Isolation that damages both Britain and Europe - Leading Articles - Opinion - The Independent

We had a thread on polls on this. Yes, there have been a lot of polls saying when asked that people were not happy with the EU but when it was asked differently, when they were asked their priorities the EU came pretty low down meaning that most people did not think of it too much. Possibly that should change.

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I know all this. The polls say the people overwhelmingly dislike the EU, but only 25% traditionally want to withdraw. The intensity of feeling on the issue is relatively low. But that doesn't make Brits Europhiles, far from it, it is not a victory for the pro-EU side, it is not something that can simply be spun away so that randomly the Europhiles can pretend Eurosceptics are a minority. Plus, the polls revealed since Cameron made this move have shown support for him surge, particularly for this decision and one poll showed 48% support full withdrawal from the EU. Not that this was simply about withdrawal, so to mention a (incorrect) figure for those who want that is a canard.

62% say Cameron was right to use the veto. Only 19% disagree. The Tory Diary
David Cameron got it right: Most voters agree with PM vetoing EU treaty changes | Mail Online

Private Hudson said:

It's funny to see some reactions. Poor little Britain and the bad guys from the EU. Britain already has enough special rights and protections. The UK rebate and Schengen agreement ....

But that's obviously not enough. Britain was not willing to compromise. The EU consists of 27 member states! It's not Britain and the rest of europe.

We work together with Airbus, the European Space Agency (ESA), the NATO and on many other fields. It is simply ridiculous to throw this all away! :roll:

Click to expand...

But the EU was supposed to be about free trade and cooperation, why should we subscribe to things you mention in the first two paragraphs?

And come on, the projects in your last parapgraph are hardly that important. I'm surprised you don't make the point about holidays being easier, as if that were worth our national identity and history.

Wessexman said:

Touchy aren't we. As I said, it is a matter of opinion and I am quite different to you and your relationship to Ireland. I have no intention of taking on board your objection, by the way, it is quite underhanded and mean spirited. It also seems very much like you are making it because I disagree with you, and if I were on your side over Europe you'd never have made a sound.

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No it is because you are Australian, not British. Do you have a vote at our elections? and yes, it is irritating an Australian saying 'we' when he is talking about Britain.

Wessexman said:

If you can choose independence for yourself, why can't the Shetlanders? They certainly could be said to be considering going their own way, and it is mostly their oil, not yours .

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I didn't comment on that. I said this is not part of this thread but I don't think they are asking for it and you would be wrong about the oil. wrong thread.

Wessexman said:

I simply think you are wrong here. The final cause of independence, whatever the efficient causes, will be national feeling.

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and you'd know better living in Australia. If you want to discuss, go to a Scottish thread as I have already asked. This is way off topic.

Wessexman said:

I know all this. The polls say the people overwhelmingly dislike the EU, but only 25% traditionally want to withdraw. The intensity of feeling on the issue is relatively low. But that doesn't make Brits Europhiles, far from it, it is not a victory for the pro-EU side, it is not something that can simply be spun away so that randomly the Europhiles can pretend Eurosceptics are a minority. Plus, the polls revealed since Cameron made this move have shown support for him surge, particularly for this decision and one poll showed 48% support full withdrawal from the EU. Not that this was simply about withdrawal, so to mention a (incorrect) figure for those who want that is a canard.

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There is one group of people who are keen on it and that is the far right Nationals. The newspapers for some reason have also been feeding a lot of misinformation about the EU. Sure if people hear that then they are going to think it is not such a good thing. I know precious little about the EU and I knew absolutely nothing before I came onto political forums and I think I am pretty normal in that as a member of the UK public. What is important imo is what is best for the UK and that is the same for the other countries in the EU, they want what is best for them to. That is what everyone wants except the Nationalists and those who still want to sing Rule Britannia or whatever it is they sing in their country.

What I do know is that there has been broad cross party support Labour, LibDems and Con's for the EU with the Con's having some of the Nat people I was speaking of.

Most people in the UK are not this nasty form of Nationalism so most people will want what is best for the UK. Now you may want a decision which is an uninformed decision but I do not. There is at the moment no evidence that the majority of the people of the UK want out of the EU. That would require a referendum or General election and listening to Nick Clegg today that is not going to happen.

I believe that because he was being challenged by these anti Europe back benchers, Cameron made a mistake of clanging dimensions. All he had to do was sign and talk. Nothing was going to happen to the UK by him so doing. By doing this he would also have offered psychological support to the rest of the EU and at the moment the psychology of investor's is making all the difference between whether things are successful or not. Instead he had to act like the big boy and he got slapped back. He had a fight and he lost. The result almost certainly will be either that we go back on this, seriously weakened or that we leave the EU which will have consequences even if those consequences are not felt immediately.

In theory, decisions about trade rules, financial regulation and so on are meant to form part of the architecture of the single market, and therefore be decided by all 27 member states; but industry fears that, over time, the core everyone-but-Britain group will inevitably shape the direction of policy.

Julien Seetharamdoo of Coutts plays down the short-term risk of a two-speed Europe leaving Britain on the fringes, but warns foreign direct investment might eventually suffer if Britain distances itself from the EU. "The immediate impact won't be particularly significant; Europe will still be the UK's main destination for exports and we are still part of a free trade area," he says. "But it could have an impact on the degree to which foreign companies will want to invest in the UK. Japan and the US have always viewed the UK as a springboard into Europe."

-snip-

Even in the City, whose interests Cameron was avowedly defending when he flew to Brussels, there were fears that the prime minister had overplayed his hand. A month ago, an unprecedented coalition of all the City's major traders – encompassing banks, hedge funds, stockbrokers and derivatives dealers – warned in an open letter to Osborne of the dire consequences of an EU-wide transaction tax that they feared a new treaty could bring. In some business areas, up to 90% of all transactions could flee London, it said. Yet after the veto, even some of the signatories are privately warning that it could backfire against Britain.

"It doesn't protect us, it exposes us," says one. There was puzzlement, too, because some of the legislation Britain plans to unilaterally impose on its financial sector – the recommendations of the Vickers commission on banking, for example – is actually tougher than anything being mooted at EU level. The Treasury insists that part of Britain's motivation was in fact to ensure that it would be allowed to set its own rules without EU interference.

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Firms fear Cameron's veto will steer UK into economic dead end | Business | The Observer

It may also as has been said result in Independence for Scotland.

Britain is now on it's own. The feeling I get is of the fight where one person decided to stand up for themselves. They decide they are not going to be messed around with and shout and bawl. The other person says, OK and turns around and walks away. Only later do they see what they have done and what they have lost. That is what I think Cameron has done for the UK.

alexa said:

There is one group of people who are keen on it and that is the far right Nationals.

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So 50% of the population in Britain are far right nationalists? Stop the name calling.

I do not believe staying in the EU, accepting any reform that gets imposed on Britain, is what is best for Britain. I believe that even in the case of a UK withdrawal. UK will still be part of the single market, because the other countries are benefiting from trading with the UK.

Camlon said:

So 50% of the population in Britain are far right nationalists? Stop the name calling.
.

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Don't be silly. Read what I said. Your conclusion is not it.

alexa said:

No it is because you are Australian, not British. Do you have a vote at our elections? and yes, it is irritating an Australian saying 'we' when he is talking about Britain.

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Do you think this childishness reflects well on you? I'm more British than Australian, as my accent shows.

There is one group of people who are keen on it and that is the far right Nationals. The newspapers for some reason have also been feeding a lot of misinformation about the EU. Sure if people hear that then they are going to think it is not such a good thing. I know precious little about the EU and I knew absolutely nothing before I came onto political forums and I think I am pretty normal in that as a member of the UK public. What is important imo is what is best for the UK and that is the same for the other countries in the EU, they want what is best for them to. That is what everyone wants except the Nationalists and those who still want to sing Rule Britannia or whatever it is they sing in their country.

What I do know is that there has been broad cross party support Labour, LibDems and Con's for the EU with the Con's having some of the Nat people I was speaking of.

Most people in the UK are not this nasty form of Nationalism so most people will want what is best for the UK. Now you may want a decision which is an uninformed decision but I do not. There is at the moment no evidence that the majority of the people of the UK want out of the EU. That would require a referendum or General election and listening to Nick Clegg today that is not going to happen.

I believe that because he was being challenged by these anti Europe back benchers, Cameron made a mistake of clanging dimensions. All he had to do was sign and talk. Nothing was going to happen to the UK by him so doing. By doing this he would also have offered psychological support to the rest of the EU and at the moment the psychology of investor's is making all the difference between whether things are successful or not. Instead he had to act like the big boy and he got slapped back. He had a fight and he lost. The result almost certainly will be either that we go back on this, seriously weakened or that we leave the EU which will have consequences even if those consequences are not felt immediately.

Click to expand...

This attempt to paint all opposition to the EU as a far-right minority is not supported by the facts I'm afraid. Most Brits don't like the EU. You can make various claims about intensity of feeling and the limits to opposition to the EU, but to jump straight to pretending it is just a tiny minority that are Eurosceptics and we can really treat Brits as Europhiles, is absurd.

Cameron hasn't taken us out of the EU, so the amount of people who want that (close to 48% in one recent poll, though I admit this is likely an anomaly.) is irrelevant.

And as I keep saying this talk about British interest from Europhiles is mostly hollow. This is not least because the Left tend to like the EU, not because of its supposed economic benefits, but because they are Universalists who are against nation states and what they consider obsolete, parochial, national identities and want more inclusive, larger, more cosmopolitan identities, and presumably to be 'citizens of the world' one day. They also support it because it has supported the social democratic ideology in certain rulings and regulations.

When it comes to economic interest the arguments of the Europhiles are overdone. As noted the EU is hardly going to ratchet up protectionism, the rest of the benefits are not central to our economy. It would be having a voice(not having our opinion automatically carried) on various regulations and projects, of limited importance to the British economy. This is quite equivocal, particularly compared to our national identity and sovereignty.

alexa said:

Don't be silly. Read what I said. Your conclusion is not it.

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I read everything. it was a long rant about how you believe Cameron should have signed the treaty that would destroy the city of London, and how only far right nationalists support withdrawal from the EU. Even though there are many against EU in labour as well.

Camlon said:

I read everything. it was a long rant about how you believe Cameron should have signed the treaty that would destroy the city of London, and how only far right nationalists support withdrawal from the EU. Even though there are many against EU in labour as well.

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I largely concur with Camlon's assessment. Alexa was clearly trying to portray the issue as one supported by a small, far-right minority, and basically was implying that really the British people are Europhiles. While there certainly are complexities, such as intensity of feeling, the evidence doesn't support Alexa and shows the British people as consistent Eurosceptics, if not radical ones, to a different degree to any other EU nation I know of.

Camlon said:

I read everything. it was a long rant about how you believe Cameron should have signed the treaty that would destroy the city of London, and how only far right nationalists support withdrawal from the EU. Even though there are many against EU in labour as well.

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One would have thought that if we where so uniformerly Europhile then then would have let us vote on the constitutional treaty

Camlon said:

I read everything. it was a long rant about how you believe Cameron should have signed the treaty that would destroy the city of London, and how only far right nationalists support withdrawal from the EU. Even though there are many against EU in labour as well.

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No, that was not what I said.

Wessexman said:

I largely concur with Camlon's assessment. Alexa was clearly trying to portray the issue as one supported by a small, far-right minority, and basically was implying that really the British people are Europhiles. While there certainly are complexities, such as intensity of feeling, the evidence doesn't support Alexa and shows the British people as consistent Eurosceptics, if not radical ones, to a different degree to any other EU nation I know of.

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Then you too have misread what I said everywhere. Poor comprehension. Read again.