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Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:Practice Relating to Rule 14. Proportionality in Attack
Section A. General
III. Military Manuals
With reference to Israel’s Law of War Booklet (1997), the Report on the Practice of Israel states: “The IDF [Israel Defense Forces] would not attack a target in cases in which it is expected that the attack would cause civilian loss, injury or damage excessive in relation to the military advantage anticipated.”
Israel’s Manual on the Laws of War (1998) states:
Even when it is not possible to isolate the civilians from an assault and there is no other recourse but to attack, this does not constitute a green light to inflict unbridled harm on civilians. The commander is required to refrain from an attack that is expected to inflict harm on the civilian population that is disproportionate to the expected military gain.
Israel’s Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) states:
In any attack, it is a duty to ensure that:
…
- That the military gain expected from the attack is proportional to the expected damage that would be caused to civilians as a result of the offensive.
The manual further states: “Proportionality must be maintained: an act must not be performed if the damage to civilians/the environment exceeds the concomitant military benefit.”
The Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) is a second edition of the Manual on the Laws of War (1998).
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.Russia on Tuesday declared the start of a new phase of its assault on Ukraine aimed at capturing all of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in the east, as the Defense Ministry announced a sharp escalation of missile and artillery strikes overnight.
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Because when our allies commit the exact same crimes we accuse Russia of, it makes it rather hard to condemn Putin with any sort of credibility. Duh.
Which is yet another reason why American complicity in Saudi Arabia’s slaughter in Yemen is so vile.
In what way am I not a liberal?I should take seriously the opinions of a Trumpist who calls himself "very liberal". That's how I know he's only pretending to be a Trumpist.
Here's the deal: different things are different, and our geopolitical interests are different than Israel's and Ukraine's geopolitical interests. Modern global society is insanely complex, and you do us all a disservice when you dumb it down this much. There are reasons we say different things about these different situations, and those reasons number more than the single fact that they are different.
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Exactly. The Western liberal views work, maybe, in the corridors of Ivy League class buildings. They barely work in Ivy League dorms.OP, You are completely correct. However, Israel relies on western liberals for support. Russia does not.
Western liberals and their beliefs about proportionality do not actually matter except to other western liberals (eg Kabul, Yemen, Syria...none of the western liberal beliefs actually matter there). If the political repercussions of alienating western liberals outweighs the military benefits then it's imperative to keep the liberals happy (similarly, nobody and I do mean nobody except western liberals and jihadi sympathizers care about the US bombing targets in Raqqa or killing ISIS prisoners. And western liberals don't matter militarily).
This is tough for Israel as they face very real threats and their govt also has to deal with a domestic audience that will demand action be taken if innocents are killed among them. Quite a tough balancing act. With the rise of BDS and other anti-Israeli movements in the west it will become less and less important for Israel to appease these groups as they largely already view Israel as an illegitimate state that has no "right" to exist. So we may be approaching the day when Israel says F it, F the western liberals who hate us, and decides to let the dogs off the leash and decide that the way the Arabs handle their own issues in Yemen or Homs should be a model for Gaza.
Well we negotiated away their nukes in 1994, for a worthless scrap of paper.Good point. We should start shipping nukes to Ukraine.
I'd say that's a bit simplistic and harsh.Exactly. The Western liberal views work, maybe, in the corridors of Ivy League class buildings. They barely work in Ivy League dorms.
OP, You are completely correct. However, Israel relies on western liberals for support. Russia does not.
Western liberals and their beliefs about proportionality do not actually matter except to other western liberals (eg Kabul, Yemen, Syria...none of the western liberal beliefs actually matter there). If the political repercussions of alienating western liberals outweighs the military benefits then it's imperative to keep the liberals happy (similarly, nobody and I do mean nobody except western liberals and jihadi sympathizers care about the US bombing targets in Raqqa or killing ISIS prisoners. And western liberals don't matter militarily).
This is tough for Israel as they face very real threats and their govt also has to deal with a domestic audience that will demand action be taken if innocents are killed among them. Quite a tough balancing act. With the rise of BDS and other anti-Israeli movements in the west it will become less and less important for Israel to appease these groups as they largely already view Israel as an illegitimate state that has no "right" to exist. So we may be approaching the day when Israel says F it, F the western liberals who hate us, and decides to let the dogs off the leash and decide that the way the Arabs handle their own issues in Yemen or Homs should be a model for Gaza.
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Israel doing that would be the literal dumbest thing they could possibly do. “Militarily speaking” killing POWs remains a war crime even if you scoff about how “only western liberals” care about such atrocities.
Having attended an Ivy League school, graduating in 1979, I know from what I speak.I'd say that's a bit simplistic and harsh.
I do believe that western liberals have largely forgotten what it means to be playing with all of your chips on the table. Which is very unfortunate.
I feel very strongly that the US focus in Afghanistan and Iraq should have been on creating states which will 1. Not threaten us and 2. Be able to defend their nations. The liberal colonies we built there have largely been incapable, although there is still hope for the Iraqis following the expulsion of ISIS and years of bloodshed (with other trials coming) while the liberal Afghan government has disintegrated. Or rather, retreated to the Upper West Side...
Iraqi and Afghan Nationalism, not democracy, should have been the primary focus.
Israel will take whatever action they need to do to survive. If western liberals decide that Israel is illegitimate anyways that will open new tools for Israel to use. Why spend millions on smart weapons to save civilian lives when it's irrelevant? In fact it may be determined that inflicting pain is what is needed to end the terrorist threat, a la Syria. It is likely that MBZ will tell Israel if they've gone to far, and the Chinese won't care if Israel sends the Palestinians to get sterilized. Hell, they'd probably make a bid on the job.
You notice how Bashar al Assad is still in power? All that talk about war crimes only matters if you lose.
Only western liberals care, and when push comes to shove western liberals don't matter. And when push comes to shove Israel is going to do what it needs to not lose.
They know western liberals aren't coming to save them.
Moronic deflection is moronic. It's amazing how I can just click around random threads and come across you generating dumb****ery throughout multiple threads.I should take seriously the opinions of a Trumpist who calls himself "very liberal". That's how I know he's only pretending to be a Trumpist.
You literally said nothing at all.Here's the deal: different things are different, and our geopolitical interests are different than Israel's and Ukraine's geopolitical interests. Modern global society is insanely complex, and you do us all a disservice when you dumb it down this much. There are reasons we say different things about these different situations, and those reasons number more than the single fact that they are different.
Israel hasn’t faced an actual existential threat in well over forty years. They literally have nuclear weapons. The idea that they are somehow going to be destroyed if they aren’t brutal enough ie laughable. It certainly isn’t an excuse for committing war crimes.
Yes, he is, and yes, he’s absolutely a war criminal. The idea that war crimes don’t matter if you kill enough “terrorists” is throughly moronic.
YOU might not care about war crimes, but that’s hardly an excuse for committing them.
War crimes are simply irrelevant if you win and nobody is coming to save you if you lose.
It's better to be a war criminal and win than end up getting genocided out like would have happened to the Alwites in Syria or did happen to the poor sops dumb enough to support the USA in Afghanistan.
The Afghan regime would have done better to embrace simple rules: You hit our school, we hit your mosques.
Now, when it comes to Israel, eventually they are going to reach a point where the pot is boiling too hot for all the iron domes in the world to cover. And Israel will clean house. Western liberals will cry. And nobody but other western liberals and jihadi sympathizers will care.
No amount of war crimes in Afghanistan could have held up a regime that was doomed to fail. The Soviets committed boatloads of them during their war there. Guess what? The communist government in Afghanistan still fell.
Compared to losing? And being strung up by some Jihadist mob while you're wife is beheaded? Are you joking?As for Syria, no matter how much gas Assad dumped on civilians he is still clinging on in large part due to foreign backers propping him up for their own reasons. This “war crimes are no big deal” argument is bizarre.
And it would have lost them all support from the people, because nearly everyone in Afghanistan is some variety of Muslim, including the soldiers and policemen who fought hard for twenty years to hold off the Taliban. Your plan would have been a propaganda boon for the Taliban.
Lol since when? Israel has literally only gotten safer as the years have gone by.
It is in Russia's interest to support war mongering and divisive extremism. And they are encouraging their provocateurs to do so now.Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Yes this is literally my point we shouldn't have been supporting a regime based on liberal ideas in Afghanistan (or communist ideas, anywhere)
You know who committed a ton of war crimes?
The Taliban. Aka the 2x Winners.
Compared to losing? And being strung up by some Jihadist mob while you're wife is beheaded? Are you joking?
Winning is what matters. Breaking international laws or not are entirely a peripheral concern.
Personally I would have had us declare the Taliban to be heretics who are enemies of God who must repent or die.
The Taliban has loads of enemies. It wouldn't have been a problem.
90% of the problems come from being seen as weak. That's the unforgiveable sin.
How about this:
You blow up a school, we shoot 50 of your POWs in the head.
God, imagine if we were actually serious. That's the least the Afghans deserved...
Safer because they're not under attack or safer because they can hit the dome button when thousands of rockets come flying into their cities?
Not sure about your point here.Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Uhhh...Russia unlike Israel is engaging in war crimes
Armed conflict between Israel and Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip in May entailed apparent war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. Disproportionate and reckless strikes by Israeli forces killed 242 Palestinians in Gaza. Unlawful attacks by Israel included targeted strikes on medical facilities and personnel. Israel maintained its illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip, inflicting collective punishment on residents and exacerbating the humanitarian crisis there, and Palestinians’ freedom of movement was arbitrarily restricted in the West Bank. Israeli authorities subjected Palestinians to forced evictions, arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment, all committed with almost total impunity. Israel’s discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted apartheid, a crime under international law.
What about the 6 day war? It's not like all the IDF has done is fight Hamas.Russia unlike Israel uses force in a non legitiamte manner and certainly not in self defense
The thing is, there is no Palestinian government. Israel has all the political power in the region. Hamas is a terrorist group. The Palestinians don't have any meaningful system to politically organize within. They are entirely disempowered in that front. Should Israel defend itself from Hamas? Obviously yes. But it's the Israeli government that has the power systems necessary to make life meaningfully better for the Palestinians.and while the "both sides should cease their actions" nonsensical approach regarding Israel and its conflicts should indeed be opposed and ridiculed
I'm aware of the opinion of groups like Amnesty and HRW, I'm more of a factual discussion fan myself.Uhhh...
Russia attacked a peaceful neighbor not threatening it in any sort of way out of hunger for power.What about the 6 day war? It's not like all the IDF has done is fight Hamas.
What do you mean there is no Palestinian government?The thing is, there is no Palestinian government. Israel has all the political power in the region. Hamas is a terrorist group. The Palestinians don't have any meaningful system to politically organize within. They are entirely disempowered in that front. Should Israel defend itself from Hamas? Obviously yes. But it's the Israeli government that has the power systems necessary to make life meaningfully better for the Palestinians.
Do you disagree with the UN assessment as well?I'm aware of the opinion of groups like Amnesty and HRW, I'm more of a factual discussion fan myself.
Since it took control of the West Bank during the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel's government has allowed 600,000 to 750,000 Israeli citizens to move to homes in occupied Palestinian
territories of the West Bank. Their towns are viewed by Palestinian leaders as ‘illegal,
fortified settlements - the largest of which houses some 64,000 Israelis – built on
Palestinian land seized by Israel.’ An occupying power is forbidden from transferring parts of its civilian population into the territory which it occupies, according to the fourth article of the Geneva Conventions, which defines humanitarian protections for civilians in a war
zone.
I never compared Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the 6 day war. I was only refuting the idea that Israels military has only operated defensively. The idea that that Israel defensively gained and occupied territory is absurd.Russia attacked a peaceful neighbor not threatening it in any sort of way out of hunger for power.
Six-days war was a war of defense against several nations ganging on a smaller younger nation trying to completely annihilate it.
I cannot compare the two.
It was my understanding that government in the Gaza strip collapsed and Hamas has control over that area. In addition to the PA having no meaningful way of pushing back against Israels political goals, which is made apparent by the fact that Israel keeps settling people in occupied regions against the wishes of the PA (and international law).What do you mean there is no Palestinian government?
The entire civilized world recognizes the Palestinian Authority (PA) as the legitimate Palestinian government.
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