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Bombing of Dresden

The Truth-Bringer

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I would be intrested to see some of your opinions and Arguments about the Bombing of Dresden, in your repllies (First Statements Before Comments) Please state:

1.) The Effects on the People
2.) The Numbers of People in the City
3.) The Bombing and its effects and plans on the Buildings of the City, and the Military Signifigance and Such
4.) The Horrors experienced by the People in the City
5.) The Logical Estimate of the Dead By The Bombing Itself (All Waves)
 

MiamiFlorida

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The Truth-Bringer said:
I would be intrested to see some of your opinions and Arguments about the Bombing of Dresden, in your repllies (First Statements Before Comments) Please state:

1.) The Effects on the People
2.) The Numbers of People in the City
3.) The Bombing and its effects and plans on the Buildings of the City, and the Military Signifigance and Such
4.) The Horrors experienced by the People in the City
5.) The Logical Estimate of the Dead By The Bombing Itself (All Waves)
From what I have read on it, the estimate of dead range anywhere from 25,000 to 300,000., and the population was somewhere around 800,000.

Having experienced firsthand the effects of napalm in Vietnam I can assure you those that died suffered a horrible death.

I don't know about the military significance. I think the allies agreed to bomb Dresden during the Yalta Conference to break the German supply lines and allow the Russians to invade from the East.
 

The Truth-Bringer

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Most modern Military Experts and Scholars on Dresden agree now that Dresden had little Military Potential, except for a Minor Barracks and a Minor Single Train Station, Yet suprisingly, wether purposely or mistakingly, during the bombing, the bombing hit all the cultural and Residential centers of the city, while not touching the Military Buildings. Either mis-prioritizing, miscalculation, or deliberate atrocity.
 

Inuyasha

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The Brits have made a very good hour long documenatry on this bombing. I forgot the name of the episode it is part of a series on the air war. The idea of inspiring teroor in the people was discussed. I found some truth to it but who really knows. I believe that all the top level officials who ordered the bombing(s) are now dead and I suppose all the documentation is restricted material.
 

Arch Enemy

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I recommend reading Slaughter-House Five.

He has a good idea of what Dresden was like, considering Kurt was actually in it.
 

Old and wise

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I know for a fact that there was no military significance to Dresden. The sole aim was to kill civilians.

As for details, believe me, you don't want to know. I was there on that fateful night and it would be much too painful to recall most of it.
I was the sole survivor in my family. Need I say more?
 

The Truth-Bringer

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Yes I have heard the details about the deaths, a terrible atrocity, all in one night too, and the death toll in one night exceeding even the Camp Dachaus Death Toll From 1940-1945 (28,000, States the Official Israeli Archives , and Holocaust Memorial Museam), and as Dachau death tolls go from 25,000 - 100,000, it certinaly was a large scale atrocity.

The Phospher bombs were truly a evil invention, burning on air, and draining the air and suffocating the victims to death...very cruel form of bombing
 

Inuyasha

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The Truth-Bringer said:
Yes I have heard the details about the deaths, a terrible atrocity, all in one night too, and the death toll in one night exceeding even the Camp Dachaus Death Toll From 1940-1945 (28,000, States the Official Israeli Archives , and Holocaust Memorial Museam), and as Dachau death tolls go from 25,000 - 100,000, it certinaly was a large scale atrocity.

The Phospher bombs were truly a evil invention, burning on air, and draining the air and suffocating the victims to death...very cruel form of bombing
The same tactic was used in Tokyo and the final tally was more than Hiroshima nand Nagasaki combined not counting the deaths by radiation poisoning and the defects passed on by birth. It is the second most horrendous terror tactic, the first being nuclear bombing.
 

MiamiFlorida

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Inuyasha said:
The same tactic was used in Tokyo and the final tally was more than Hiroshima nand Nagasaki combined not counting the deaths by radiation poisoning and the defects passed on by birth. It is the second most horrendous terror tactic, the first being nuclear bombing.
Which comes to the question: Can it be justified?

It's easy to pass judgement from the comfort of our den...or desk...on the people who made such decisions.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not significant military targets either.

Truman was faced with a Japanese nation that would not surrender. We must remember that hundreds of thousands of Americans had already died in WWII...and an invasion of Japan would have doubled our casualties...not to mention that between 1 and 2 million Japanese civilians and military personnel would perish.

I don't think I could have made that decision...but I don't second-guess those who did. The same goes for Dresden....and Tokyo.
 

The Truth-Bringer

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MiamiFlorida said:
Which comes to the question: Can it be justified?

It's easy to pass judgement from the comfort of our den...or desk...on the people who made such decisions.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not significant military targets either.

Truman was faced with a Japanese nation that would not surrender. We must remember that hundreds of thousands of Americans had already died in WWII...and an invasion of Japan would have doubled our casualties...not to mention that between 1 and 2 million Japanese civilians and military personnel would perish.

I don't think I could have made that decision...but I don't second-guess those who did. The same goes for Dresden....and Tokyo.
Well now that Historians view back on it, Japanese Communications indicated that they COULD not hold out, do to the economic destruction and isolation of Japan, so it was not Either Atomic Bomb or Invasion, it was those or just wait out and let them surrender on their own, as the US had already crushed the Japanese High Command Moral with the destruction of quote" The Biggest Air Craft carrier In History", i Forgot the name sorry.

But yes their reasons were shrowdy, and from the war room decisions had to be made fast, and sometimes very recklessly...yet we cant really know what was going on in the tacticians and Politicians minds when they made those decisions, I dont think I could order such a Massacre either.
 

kingpin

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It was to my understanding that the bombing of Dresden was in retaliation for Coventry England. The germans bombed that for not other significant reason other than the killing of civilians. Not to long ago there was some kind of donation to either Dresden from the town of Coventry or visa versa. Anyway, as for justifying it all, for me i think there is no need. War is war and ya do whatever u can to beat the other guys.
 
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Androvski

Old and wise said:
I know for a fact that there was no military significance to Dresden. The sole aim was to kill civilians.

As for details, believe me, you don't want to know. I was there on that fateful night and it would be much too painful to recall most of it.
I was the sole survivor in my family. Need I say more?
That was a great tragedy for you and Iam genuinely sorry to read that,I know of families in Swansea,a small city a few miles from where I live,that suffered similarly(although I'm not trying to compare the scale of the bombing,Iam aware that against Germany it was far more intensive).
There are needless to say many from Cities around both our countries that can sadly say the same!
 
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The Truth-Bringer

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kingpin said:
It was to my understanding that the bombing of Dresden was in retaliation for Coventry England. The germans bombed that for not other significant reason other than the killing of civilians. Not to long ago there was some kind of donation to either Dresden from the town of Coventry or visa versa. Anyway, as for justifying it all, for me i think there is no need. War is war and ya do whatever u can to beat the other guys.
Well Germany may have done a Atrocity of bombing England and London (London = ~20,000 Dead or so) But still , that had no military signifiagance and just because one side does a evil, doesnt mean you have to sink to their level and give the same evil back.

And yea War is War, but the question is, is war justified?
 
A

Androvski

The Truth-Bringer said:
Well Germany may have done a Atrocity of bombing England and London (London = ~20,000 Dead or so) But still , that had no military signifiagance and just because one side does a evil, doesnt mean you have to sink to their level and give the same evil back.

And yea War is War, but the question is, is war justified?
Yeah I agree with that,two wrongs certainly don't make a right,and I would say that war is generally not justified.
In the case of WW2 I don't think we had a choice,the Nazis had to be brought down and totally defeated!
It's about as justified a war (if any can be termed that),that I can think of in the whole of history,unfortunately even in the most just of causes,unjust things happen.
 
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The Truth-Bringer

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Androvski said:
Yeah I agree with that,two wrongs certainly don't make a right,and I would say that war is generally not justified.
In the case of WW2 I don't think we had a choice,the Nazis had to be brought down and totally defeated!
It's about as justified a war (if any can be termed that),that I can think of in the whole of history,unfortunately even in the most just of causes,unjust things happen.
True , The Nazis were a beast that had to be stopped, Just the way the war was fought, or the wars existence was unjustified.
 

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The Truth-Bringer said:
I would be intrested to see some of your opinions and Arguments about the Bombing of Dresden, in your repllies (First Statements Before Comments) Please state:

1.) The Effects on the People
2.) The Numbers of People in the City
3.) The Bombing and its effects and plans on the Buildings of the City, and the Military Signifigance and Such
4.) The Horrors experienced by the People in the City
5.) The Logical Estimate of the Dead By The Bombing Itself (All Waves)

Well, pretty much the whole city was destroyed and a massive amount of innocent people died. It was one of the bigger war crimes of World War II. I kinda view the trials of the Nazis as simply victors justice and not real justice, because the perpetrators of this crime never had to answer for what they did. I can't really speak for the horrors the people had to suffer because I never lived it. It was mainly designed to send a message to Stalin because Britian and the US knew that the Soviet Union and the West would cease to be friends after World War II. Basically, their was a perception that Stalin might attack Western Europe and the US and Britian were demonstrating to Stalin what would happen to one of his cities if he ever decided to attack after World War II was over. The Red Army was close by this city.
 

The Truth-Bringer

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TimmyBoy said:
Well, pretty much the whole city was destroyed and a massive amount of innocent people died. It was one of the bigger war crimes of World War II. I kinda view the trials of the Nazis as simply victors justice and not real justice, because the perpetrators of this crime never had to answer for what they did. I can't really speak for the horrors the people had to suffer because I never lived it. It was mainly designed to send a message to Stalin because Britian and the US knew that the Soviet Union and the West would cease to be friends after World War II. Basically, their was a perception that Stalin might attack Western Europe and the US and Britian were demonstrating to Stalin what would happen to one of his cities if he ever decided to attack after World War II was over. The Red Army was close by this city.
Good Post, That might be likely scenerio, as Churchill by the time Yalta took place was already disliking Stalin, but Roosevelt still favored him.
 

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The Truth-Bringer said:
Good Post, That might be likely scenerio, as Churchill by the time Yalta took place was already disliking Stalin, but Roosevelt still favored him.
Ohh yeah, Roosvelt was very foolish when dealing with Stalin. Churchill on the other hand understood exactly what kind of man he was dealing with. I think if the US did not have the A-Bomb that Stalin would have likely attacked Western Europe shortly after World War II. Patton also understood what he was dealing with when it came to Stalin.
 

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1.) The Effects on the People

TERROR

2.) The Numbers of People in the City

FULL UP

3.) The Bombing and its effects and plans on the Buildings of the City, and
the Military Signifigance and Such

LOW BALL 0

4.) The Horrors experienced by the People in the City

THE FIRE STORMS WAS LIKE HELL ITSELF HENCE THE TERM GIVE EM HELL

5.) The Logical Estimate of the Dead By The Bombing Itself (All Waves)
 
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MiamiFlorida said:
From what I have read on it, the estimate of dead range anywhere from 25,000 to 300,000., and the population was somewhere around 800,000.

Having experienced firsthand the effects of napalm in Vietnam I can assure you those that died suffered a horrible death.

I don't know about the military significance. I think the allies agreed to bomb Dresden during the Yalta Conference to break the German supply lines and allow the Russians to invade from the East.

I know that there was no military presence in Dresden except for 1 military hospital. It was a civilian city and had become a refugee city for civilians after most of the other major cities had been bombed out. The estimated population at the time was 1.2 million including 600,000 civilian refugees. 700,000 phosphourous bombs were dropped on the city and it obliterated 15 square kilometers of the city including houses, apartments, schools, churches, hospitals, civilian factories, banks, insurance companies, department stores, theatres and hotels. Modern scholars put the death toll at anywhere between 25,000-35,000. No one knows for sure because there were so many people in Dresden that the time that wern't residents and many bodies were either charred beyond recognition or incinerated entirely. In my opinion it was a warcrime.
 
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The Truth-Bringer

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I know that there was no military presence in Dresden except for 1 military hospital. It was a civilian city and had become a refugee city for civilians after most of the other major cities had been bombed out. The estimated population at the time was 1.2 million including 600,000 civilian refugees. 700,000 phosphourous bombs were dropped on the city and it obliterated 15 square kilometers of the city including houses, apartments, schools, churches, hospitals, civilian factories, banks, insurance companies, department stores, theatres and hotels. Modern scholars put the death toll at anywhere between 25,000-35,000. No one knows for sure because there were so many people in Dresden that the time that wern't residents and many bodies were either charred beyond recognition or incinerated entirely. In my opinion it was a warcrime.
Yea True, Its one of those massares that have almost no documents to base it on, since the Nazis didnt bother to record all those refugees since they were too busy with other things.
 
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The Truth-Bringer said:
Yea True, Its one of those massares that have almost no documents to base it on, since the Nazis didnt bother to record all those refugees since they were too busy with other things.

The Nazi propaganda machine said that there were hundreds of thousands dead. There are rumours that Guirbles had the acctual number but doctored it by adding a 0.
 

Old and wise

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It does not matter whether Göbels doctored the numbers or not. The point is that it never should have happened since it was not a military target.

If you have never seen a phosphorus bomb, you should do a little research. They were a six sided stick about 3 inches in diameter and about 3 feet long. When they hit, they would open on one side about 1/2 way up and spew burning phosphorus all over the place. You could put it out by dropping a sand bag on it but if you poured water on it, it would explode. If you caught it in time you could throw it out the window and keep your house from burning down.

The sole reason for bombing Dresden was to burn the city to the ground and kill as many civilians as possible.

They succeeded beyond expectations which included everyone in my family.
 
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Old and wise said:
It does not matter whether Göbels doctored the numbers or not. The point is that it never should have happened since it was not a military target.

If you have never seen a phosphorus bomb, you should do a little research. They were a six sided stick about 3 inches in diameter and about 3 feet long. When they hit, they would open on one side about 1/2 way up and spew burning phosphorus all over the place. You could put it out by dropping a sand bag on it but if you poured water on it, it would explode. If you caught it in time you could throw it out the window and keep your house from burning down.

The sole reason for bombing Dresden was to burn the city to the ground and kill as many civilians as possible.

They succeeded beyond expectations which included everyone in my family.
I never said otherwise. If you had read my post I stated that it was a warcrime.
 

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as bad as it was hiroshima nagesaki were worse nightmares
and
vietnam too was worse

the war crimes are not war crimes unless you lose the war it seems

the depleted uranium bombs being used in Iraq are as bad as well

sociopaths go on killing while you wave old glory and put your hand on your hearts and murmur in god we trust
 
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