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Bombing of Dresden

The Truth-Bringer said:
I would be intrested to see some of your opinions and Arguments about the Bombing of Dresden, in your repllies (First Statements Before Comments) Please state:

2.) The Numbers of People in the City
The population of Dresden was 642,143 in 1939 and it held an estimated 200,000 refugees during the time of the bombing, according to the USAF Historical Division Research Studies Institute Air University's Historical Analysis of the 14-15 February 1945 Bombings of Dresden.
3.) The Bombing and its effects and plans on the Buildings of the City, and the Military Signifigance and Such
Let it be stressed beforehand that Dresden represented a legitimate military target under Hague II and that the Nazis had no one to blame but themselves for refusing to attend the draft conventions of the Hague in 1938. Active military units within and near the city, along with fighter planes and anti-aircraft batteries on location were sufficient to qualify Dresden as an 'open' or 'defended' city and hence not subject to the prohibitions against bombardment of undefended towns in international military law. Moreover, as is made clear by Javier Guisández Gómez in his essay on The Law of Air Warfare in the International Review of the Red Cross no 323, p.347-363, "In examining these events in the light of international humanitarian law, it should be borne in mind that during the Second World War there was no agreement, treaty, convention or any other instrument governing the protection of the civilian population or civilian property, as the Conventions then in force dealt only with the protection of the wounded and the sick on the battlefield and in naval warfare, hospital ships, the laws and customs of war and the protection of prisoners of war"

Now that is has been esablished that Dresden was both a legitimate and legal military target, we may discuss why it was bombed. According to Sir Archibald Sinclair, Secretary of State for Air in Britain, in a reply to Churchill on 27 January 1945 regarding the bombing of East German cities, "The Air Staff have now arranged that, subject to the overriding claims of attacks on enemy oil production and other approved target systems within the current directive, available effort should be directed against Berlin, Dresden, Chemnitz and Leipzig or against other cities where severe bombing would not only destroy communications vital to the evacuation from the east, but would also hamper the movement of troops from the west." Emphases mine. As the Soviet juggernaut was by then preparing to advance into the German heartland itself, myriad discussions between Western Allied and Soviet diplomats and military officials took place and concluded that, "...the assistance which might be given to the Russians during the next few weeks by the British and American strategic bomber forces justifies an urgent review of their employment to this end. ... Attacks against oil targets should continue to take precedence over everything else,.." Two weeks later, Arthur Harris, Commander-in-Chief of RAF Bomber Command sent out the despatch with official details concerning the Dresden bombing:

February 13–14, 1945

High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, circa 1944: A/C/M Arthur Treacher Harris at Bomber Command Headquarters.
RAF

In Britain, Bomber Command of the Royal Air Force is starting Operation THUNDERCLAP, a campaign in east Germany in support of the Soviet advance. The idea is to deprive the German forces of materiel by destroying factories and rail systems, and then to wreck the resort towns and residential areas where refugees gather and combat troops go to rest and recuperate.

The main target for tonight is Dresden, where the aiming point is a large sports stadium. A secondary raid against Böhlen will demolish a synthetic-oil plant while diverting air defences from Dresden.


As is plain to see, no intent or consideration was ever given to the thought that Dresden should be singled out because of its population, architecture, or anything else for purposes of either retaliation or terrorisation of civilians (much less the farcical claim of 'genocide'). The USSB Survey lists 110 operational factories in Dresden which were producing material meant to prosecute the war effort. In 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office (itself!) listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops which supplied the army with materiel in the city. The extent to which these factories were a significant impetus of the bombing raid is attested to by the fact that the bombing was considered a success after having disabled approximately 25% of the city's industrial capacities and rendered it useless as a base from which to launch German counter-attacks against Soviet forces.

Dresden is simply used as a convenient talking-point for Nazi sympathisers who wish to equate Allied 'war crimes' with those of the holocaust, anti-Western agitators, disgruntled German patriots and the like. You hear no mention of the firebombings of Hamburg at the time, which were - all told - far more devastating. Why is that? Because Hamburg lacked the gorgeous Baroque architecture of Dresden, which fires in the imagination of the simple-minded and easily seduced the notion that it was chosen as a target especially to punish Germany and its citizens out of cruelty.

5.) The Logical Estimate of the Dead By The Bombing Itself (All Waves)
MiamiFlorida said:
From what I have read on it, the estimate of dead range anywhere from 25,000 to 300,000.,
The hilarious 300,000 figure has only ever been put forward by two figures: Nazi Minister for Propaganda Joseph Goebbels and Holocaust Denier David Irving. Some clarification on the origins of this lie:

3. Irving’s own estimates of the numbers of dead have varied widely over time, and
have changed from one edition of his book to the next and in his public speeches:

• In the 1966 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the triple blow was ‘estimated
authoritatively to have killed more than 135,000 of the population...’,311 but the
‘documentation suggests very strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum
of 100,000 and a maximum of 250,000.’312

• In the 1971 edition the triple blow was ‘estimated authoritatively to have killed
more than 100,000 of the population...’313

• In 1989 Irving told journalists whilst launching the ‘Leuchter Report’ in Britain
that: ‘There were one million refugees in the streets of Dresden at the time that we
burned Dresden to the ground, killing anything between 100,000 and 250,000 of
them.’ 314

• In 1992 Irving told the Institute of Historical Review that ‘a hundred thousand
people were killed [in Dresden] in a period of twelve hours by the British and Americans.’
315

• In 1993, in a publicity video made for the Australian public, Irving stated that ‘over
130,000 people died in that particular air raid.’ 316

• In the 1995 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the figure was no longer authoritative
and the attack had ‘cost the lives of between fifty and one hundred thousand
inhabitants.…’317 Elsewhere he dropped the lower figure and said the attack cost
‘up to a hundred thousand people their lives.’318

• In 1996 Irving had changed this figure yet again in his Goebbels: The Mastermind of
the ‘Third Reich’, where he notes of the Dresden raids that ‘Between sixty and one
hundred thousand people were choked to death or burned alive...’319

Most disturbing is not the changing nature, or the clearly inflated estimates, but the manner in which Irving distorted and supressed evidence to reach these estimates.

As the Evan's report noted:


4. As will be demonstrated, these erratic fluctuations in Irving’s figures are entirely
arbitrary and have never accorded to the changing state of research (either his own
or that of others) into the Dresden death roll. The only consistency in his figures is
that they have resolutely remained far in excess of the most reliable and agreed figures
(i.e. those based on the most solid research and which command the most
general assent). We shall now see how he has arrived at these inflated estimates, and
what evidence that they are indeed far above the likely number.

[...]

1. In 1966 Irving wrote that the ‘competent authority in Berlin for air raid relief and
welfare services accepted an estimate of between 120,000 and 150,000...’ There is
no source given for this.420 In 1966 Irving wrote further that ‘according to the
Federal Ministry of Statistics in Wiesbaden immediately after the attacks the local
authorities were estimating the figure as 180,000 to 220,000.’ The source runs simply,
‘Dr. Hans Sperling, Federal Ministry of Statistics’. Without Dr Sperling’s letter
to see what these estimates consist of the reader is hard put to comment on their
provenance. Irving does not care to enlighten us further. In 1995 we are no nearer
the source. Again he attributes the figure 180,000 to 220,000 to ‘official sources in
Berlin’ and this time a lower figure of 120,000 to 150,000 to ‘the authority responsible
for relief measures in blitzed cities’. Dr. Sperling’s letter is still quoted.421 This
figure of 120,000 to 150,000 makes a reappearance in the 1995 edition, again attributed
to ‘the Berlin authority for responsible for welfare in blitzed cities’. Bizarrely the
upper figure of 150,000 cited in 1966 has become ‘half a million’ by 1995, while still
being attributed to the same source as previously. 422

[con't]
 
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- Professor Richard J. Evans, Irving vs. Lipstadt trial.

As for the true death toll, it has been more or less accurately estimated by legitimate historians:
Standard military arguments, coupled with the demonstration of alliance solidarity and a show-off presentation of [the Bomber Command’s] capacities, cost the lives of about 25,000 people in the night from the 13th to the 14th of February, 1945. This figure results from recent investigations of the Dresden city archive and is based on documents, assessed for the first time, of the departments of the city of Dresden which had been in charge of recovery and burial of the victims at the time. The city administration continued to function even after the attack, the recovery and burial of the dead was by no means carried out in a chaotic manner, there was accurate registration. The number mentioned includes 6,865 dead who were burned on the Altmarkt in order to prevent the spread of diseases. Former rescue workers consider it a myth that dead should have been burnt to ashes in cellars with flame throwers. The figure also includes 1,557 dead bodies which were found in 1957 under the ruins during construction works in Dresden. These data coincide with other official documents which in March of 1945 had contained detailed listings of the dead, but thereafter been crudely manipulated and thus lead to confusion after the war - a forger had added a naught to all the figures.

When discussing the total balance of the horror, the question is often put how many refugees were in the city at the time of the attack. It is widely maintained that these people, unknown in Dresden, died in their tens of thousands in the firestorm. Yet no eyewitness confirms that caravans of refugees crossed Dresden in the middle of February on horse carriages. Neither could massive lodgings in Dresden households be established. Only such a measure would have made it possible to accommodate hundreds of thousands of externals in a city that still had about 600,000 inhabitants. Great numbers of refugees could be seen, however, in the vicinity of the railway stations; many were also lodged in restaurants, hotels, schools and other centers of reception. Serious estimates consider that, including the about 30,000 prisoners of war and forced laborers, there were about 100,000 externals inside the city; other sources mention 200,000 people from abroad in the city itself and in the surrounding area.

Some controversies about the number of victims in the past took the form of macabre technical considerations. It was considered possible, for instance, that many people were burned in the firestorm into heaps of ash so small that they could not be found. Fire department experts and forensic medics have in the meantime responded to this question very clearly – hardly a human body burns completely to ashes. This means that six digit numbers of victims that have been talked about for decades must be seen as pure speculations.
Translated from Guido Knopp, Unser Jahrhundert -Deutsche Schicksalstage, 1998 C. Bertelsmann Verlag, München, page 258.

There is a handwritten transcript without signature of the Tagesbefehl 47 by the German Ordnungspolizei stating that 250,000 died during the bombing (which Irving quotes). Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for Dresden and its people, this document is a ridiculous forgery, perhaps from somebody in Goebbels' Propagandaministerium. In reality, the report said that 25,000 died in Dresden. For a comprehensive analysis of the TB 47 see Götz Bergander in Dresden im Luftkrieg.

The crucial passage reads: "Casualties: by 10th March, 1945, 18,375 dead, 2,212 seriously injured, and 13,918 slightly injured had been registered, with 350,000 homeless and permanently evacuated." The total death-roll, "primarily women and children," was expected to reach 25,000; fewer than a hundred of the dead were servicemen. Of the dead recovered by then, 6,865 had been cremated in one of the city squares. A total of 35,000 people were listed as "missing".

Case closed.
 
History leeson was over 5 posts ago
no need for a cut and paste

it only takes a few words to answer the original questions
 
Canuck said:
History leeson was over 5 posts ago
no need for a cut and paste

it only takes a few words to answer the original questions
The history "leesons" I saw five posts ago were that 'The sole reason for bombing Dresden was to burn the city to the ground and kill as many civilians as possible.' (idiotic nonsense) and 'I know that there was no military presence in Dresden except for 1 military hospital.' (see above). Oh yes, and let's not forget 'The estimated population at the time was 1.2 million including 600,000 civilian refugees.' (According to who, exactly?).

My posts contain the only corroborated and accurate history that's been injected into this entire thread. Forgive me if some of us set our sights a tad higher than "THE FIRE STORMS WAS LIKE HELL ITSELF HENCE THE TERM GIVE EM HELL", General Sherman. :roll:
 
Good summation
No military prsents
I think its called
SHOCK AND AWE TERROR TACTICS

where have I heard that before
 
Canuck said:
Didn't you hear
HENRY FORD the peoples man, said all of history is BUNK .

Yeah, we know all about the objectivity of French Canadians.
 
Canuck said:
Good summation
No military prsents
I think its called
SHOCK AND AWE TERROR TACTICS

where have I heard that before
Canuck said:
Didn't you hear
HENRY FORD the peoples man, said all of history is BUNK .
Just when I thought you might be an idiot, you remove all doubt. Go play in the sandbox while the grownups are talking. :)
 
good little boys get their history from the US propaganda machine

I do not
 
Canuck said:
good little boys get their history from the US propaganda machine

I do not

Good little boys are also stupid

Good little boys believe blindly that their country is never wrong, false, lies, or ever supported a dictator like Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, and Osama bin Laden.
 
Comrade Brian said:
Good little boys are also stupid

Good little boys believe blindly that their country is never wrong, false, lies, or ever supported a dictator like Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, and Osama bin Laden.

because good little boys really truly believe AMerica is number 1
and it would make them ball if they really knew the truth

american schools teach 60% politically corret american history
imagine the culture shock of finally realizing the truth

like this snipit
ho chi men ,and his men were U.S. allies in ww2 that fought japanese and routinely picked up and help to saftey U.S. downed pilots that flew out of China
and when at the end of ww2 he spoke to the league of nations and said in plain english,
"We fight with Nato and kill Japs for freedom,We respectfully ask we be free now ""and America's response was no freedom for yella bastards"siding with the french
while the american servicemen flying out of china was 1 of FDR's way to prevoke a japanese assault on pearl harbour
to allow America to enter ww2 through the back door
against 90% of american's wishes to go to war
he Knew if he could prevoke an attack that America would sound the call to arms and mobilize

some 20 years later this blunder would cost american servicemen men their lives.by the thousands!
those soldiers fought for their country's blunders and arrogance not freedom
It was destined to fail from the start

Tidbits like these are burried deep on dusty shelves of history
it would not do to allow good little americans to know this as it would limit their willingness to take part in nazi like goon squads.
good little Americans now fight iraQians for their country's blunders, and arrogance.They will die for them too,stone cold dead on the sands of iraq
 
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I believe it was in the book "Flyboys" that the author discusses the fact that our air forces had determined that bombing with conventional explosives was not effective. The use of incendiary bombs increased the damage by substantial margins decreasing the need for additional missions over the same targets. Saving Allied lives and equipment. Legitimate reasoning and use of such force. This writing concerned Japan but I'm sure the same reasoning went into our use of incendiary weapons in the European Theater as well.
 
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