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Bloomberg and Fox Polls Say Don't Raise Ceiling Without Spending Cuts

Boehner and the Republicans don't deserve any more spending cuts.

Obama has already cut spending tremendously.

You don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe Forbes. Or is Forbes part of "the liberal media elite"? (As singer Meat Loaf, a Republican, would say, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Who Is The Smallest Government Spender Since Eisenhower? Would You Believe It's Barack Obama? - Forbes

Wrong, there have been exactly 0 spending cuts.

Outlays

2008 2,982,544
2009 3,517,677
2010 3,457,079
2011 3,603,059
2012 3,537,127
2013 estimate 3,684,947

Historical Tables | The White House
 
why does everyone make this an "either or dilemma"? You can cut from foreign aid and defense spending. They are not mutually exclusive positions, and any serious restructuring of any budget requires a multi-leveled approach.

You know, we can chew gum and walk at the same time, and there is nothing wrong with starting the process where cuts are most easily achieved, like with foreign aid.

People do the same thing with cuts and revenue when we can do both at the same time

PS and no, something being foreign aid does not necessitate it holds some meaningful value to the citizenry


Actually foreign aid does hold "some meaningful value to the citizenry" of this nation:
Why America Spends So Much on Foreign AidCapitol Hill Daily
American foreign aid is structured into two major programs. The first is food aid, and the second is called military aid.

In the U.S. food aid program, the government buys corn, soy and other farm commodities from American farmers and then ships the foodstuffs to poor and starving villagers around the globe.

Military aid money helps foreign governments buy weapons from America’s arms manufacturers. The money also sends American troops to teach foreign soldiers to use their new weapons.

As the linked article notes, there are problems with the programs and the ways in which they affect the nations receiving the aid Do you think the farming and arms industries would allow these subsidies to them to stop?

Another example from a couple years past:

Obama’s $2 billion to Brazil ends up helping send oil to China

Reality - Dispelling the Brazil Oil Loan Myth as Obama Heads to Rio
Here’s what is really going on with that $2 billion loan. Petrobras declined to comment on it, but a spokesperson at the Export-Import Bank, which offered Petrobras $2 billion in a preliminary commitment in April 2009, did comment. (And after some due diligence all my own, here are the the “known-knowns”.)

The Export Import Bank is a government run bank. It made a preliminary commitment to offer Petrobras $2 billion in April 2009. What that means is, Petrobras could take out a loan from the Bank and use that money not to enrich Soros or shareholders, per se, but to enrich US companies in the energy space, mainly businesses in the oil, natural gas, and oil rig space. The money would in fact come back to the US and, hopefully, even create jobs due to demand for goods and services from Petrobras, one of the biggest oil companies in the Americas.

A lot, perhaps even most, of the foreign aid dispersed by the US, is actually intended to support American business by placing requirements on the recipients that they purchase goods and services from American companies.
 
Actually foreign aid does hold "some meaningful value to the citizenry" of this nation

Is english not your first language, or something? I wrote, and you directly quoted "and no, something being foreign aid does not necessitate it holds some meaningful value to the citizenry"

As in money simply being spent on foreign aid does not mean it is money well spent and that serves the american people well. Clearly this is not the same as what *you* read it as, which was "foreign aid has no value"

So, again, please respond to what I actually write, not what you generate in your own head


As the linked article notes, there are problems with the programs and the ways in which they affect the nations receiving the aid Do you think the farming and arms industries would allow these subsidies to them to stop?

They don't own the govt. They are able to acquire special favors through influence, but that doesn't mean they control the govt, as you seem to suggest


A lot, perhaps even most, of the foreign aid dispersed by the US, is actually intended to support American business by placing requirements on the recipients that they purchase goods and services from American companies

How does this address what I wrote? Again, stop wasting my time with your knee-jerk reactions. yes, I get it, I have conservative on my profile and this causes you some Pavlovian response. But your short comings are not my problem and am unsure why you assume anyone else needs to deal with them, outside your home

But to just point out the obvious, money serving special interests does not equate to serving larger american interests. And I see no reason to assume foreign aid needs to be exempt from budget cuts.

And this remains true even after your post, which didn't even really address anything I wrote
 
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Why would you believe a word that Paul Ryan (actually one of his 'aides') writes or says? The man whose budget was so full of holes and magical wishes that not even his backers could figure out a way to make it work

Irrelevant.
 
Your rant is noted. Meanwhile, the GOP doesn't have the votes to repeal ACA so they're trying to do it via the CR.

Pretty sleazy.

But if the GOP wants to play that game, you really can't complain if the Democrats join in.

There was another way to play the game. The Senate could have passed amended authorization bills in response to the ones that the House passed. The amendments might have been massive and unacceptable to the House (They have been in the past - but conference committees and "smoke filled room" trades between Party leaders produced passage eventually) but this fight would have been pushed forward by months and dealt with through the "normal legislative means" that you referenced on your earlier post. Both Parties wanted this shutdown because they saw it as opportunity to rally their party bases and pin blame on the other party. Both parties still see political opportunity so they persist. Do you really think that the House quickly passed the Federal Employee Retroactive Pay Act unanimously (both parties in agreement) because they felt sorry for the pawns in this game? It was all about reducing the pain of the shutdown so that it could continue with less pressure.

Our system was purposely designed to be republican (not the party) governance and not purely democratic (also not the party). As such we recognize that majority opinion can be akin to mob mentality and we have built in protection of minority opinion. One of those checks is being exercised right now. Note that in the second half of the 1970s the Dems were the minority that felt strongly enough that Tip O'Neal forced shutdown 7 times. Government shutdown is what we get when there is a strong minority opinion whose champions feel cornered and normal legislative processes shut them out entirely. Continuing to shut them out will only escalate the crisis so that it merges with the debt ceiling increase. This actually is the time when the President must step forward and lead the nation out of the mess (whether he is Republican Reagan or Democrat Obama) and thus far he has chosen a path that deepens the crisis.
 
Dr Chuckles, I must say that you seem to be nit-picking in your objections to my rejoinder. I do not see how providing jobs for Americans does not hold "some meaningful value" for the citizenry.

I do not have a "Pavlovian" reaction to the personal labels seen on this forum. I am a registered "Independent" voter in Florida but ain't no way in hell do I hold the same beliefs and values as some who label themselves "Independent" here. The self-applied labels have zero meaning to me - it is the posts I have read that cause me to think how I would label a person who posts here.
 
Dr Chuckles, I must say that you seem to be nit-picking in your objections to my rejoinder.

No, I am pointing out your rejoinder had absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. That isn't nitpicking. Nitpicking would be making issue over something irrelevent. Clearly your post actually relating to the content of mine is very relevant, being that it was a reply meant to address that content

I do not see how for the citizenry.

Maybe go back and try reading slowly: I didn't claim <<<providing jobs for Americans does not hold "some meaningful value">>>

this is the third time you have done this. If you are incapable of actually reading what people write, I suggest you seek help from a medical professional


I do not have a "Pavlovian" reaction

Yes, you clearly do


it is the posts I have read that cause me to think how I would label a person who posts here.

But there is the rub, you *ARE NOT* actually *reading* and responding to what I post. To call it tedious would be an understatement.
 
Everytime I point out youre wrong, you move on to a new topic.

That's just what I said, are the T's moving on to a new topic?
Does Ryan mention repealing Obamacare or not? If not, why? Is he a supporter of Obamacare?
 
Boehner and the Republicans don't deserve any more spending cuts.

Obama has already cut spending tremendously.

You don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe Forbes. Or is Forbes part of "the liberal media elite"? (As singer Meat Loaf, a Republican, would say, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Who Is The Smallest Government Spender Since Eisenhower? Would You Believe It's Barack Obama? - Forbes
Wrong, there have been exactly 0 spending cuts.

Outlays

2008 2,982,544
2009 3,517,677
2010 3,457,079
2011 3,603,059
2012 3,537,127
2013 estimate 3,684,947

Historical Tables | The White House
Who are you going to believe, Forbes magazine or the Obama Administration?
 
Why would you believe a word that Paul Ryan (actually one of his 'aides') writes or says? The man whose budget was so full of holes and magical wishes that not even his backers could figure out a way to make it work

Apparently, the Republicans are taking a cue from Lyin' Ryan, and making this shutdown a marathon, not a sprint.
 
Boehner and the Republicans don't deserve any more spending cuts.

Obama has already cut spending tremendously.

You don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe Forbes. Or is Forbes part of "the liberal media elite"? (As singer Meat Loaf, a Republican, would say, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Who Is The Smallest Government Spender Since Eisenhower? Would You Believe It's Barack Obama? - Forbes

Who are you going to believe, Forbes magazine or the Obama Administration?

This has nothing to do with money. It is about cutting down the President.
Obama is the most fiscally conservative President since Eisenhower and that is only infuriating the haters more.
 
There was another way to play the game. The Senate could have passed amended authorization bills in response to the ones that the House passed. The amendments might have been massive and unacceptable to the House (They have been in the past - but conference committees and "smoke filled room" trades between Party leaders produced passage eventually) but this fight would have been pushed forward by months and dealt with through the "normal legislative means" that you referenced on your earlier post. Both Parties wanted this shutdown because they saw it as opportunity to rally their party bases and pin blame on the other party. Both parties still see political opportunity so they persist. Do you really think that the House quickly passed the Federal Employee Retroactive Pay Act unanimously (both parties in agreement) because they felt sorry for the pawns in this game? It was all about reducing the pain of the shutdown so that it could continue with less pressure.

Our system was purposely designed to be republican (not the party) governance and not purely democratic (also not the party). As such we recognize that majority opinion can be akin to mob mentality and we have built in protection of minority opinion. One of those checks is being exercised right now. Note that in the second half of the 1970s the Dems were the minority that felt strongly enough that Tip O'Neal forced shutdown 7 times. Government shutdown is what we get when there is a strong minority opinion whose champions feel cornered and normal legislative processes shut them out entirely. Continuing to shut them out will only escalate the crisis so that it merges with the debt ceiling increase. This actually is the time when the President must step forward and lead the nation out of the mess (whether he is Republican Reagan or Democrat Obama) and thus far he has chosen a path that deepens the crisis.

Which law did Tip O'Neal want repealed? The budget process has never in our history been used as a tool to repeal a law. Your characterization is way off base. This is nothing but an insurgency and the perps are violating their oaths of office and the Constitution.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/republicans-are-awfully-close-to-violating-the-constitution-20131008
 
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Dumb question, and it may have already been asked and answered, but....

Why couldn't the House have passed a CR that included ObamaCare in it's original form? Meaning the entire thing including the "waivers" the President (changing a Law without Congressional approval) handed out.
 
Which law did Tip O'Neal want repealed? The budget process has never in our history been used as a tool to repeal a law. Your characterization is way off base. This is nothing but an insurgency and the perps are violating their oaths of office and the Constitution.
Republicans Are Awfully Close to Violating the Constitution - NationalJournal.com

Excellent point. It's amusing and pitiful to watch the tea partiers make false equivalences like this. O'Neal didn't try to use the debt ceiling or funding process to repeal anything. So the entire argument by the conservatives is dishonest, as usual.
 
Your characterization is way off base.

Really??? Check this out. How was a budget fight over abortion funding different from fighting over ACA funding? Both were attempts to alter policy by funding actions.

“O’Neill presided over a total of seven government shutdowns under Reagan, and five during the Jimmy Carter administration, meaning that he played a role in precisely two-thirds of all the government shutdowns since the modern budgeting process has been in place…….
Interestingly, nearly all of the shutdowns that took place during the Carter administration, when Democrats also controlled the Senate under Senate majority leader Robert Byrd (D., W.Va.), were the result of disagreements over abortion policy, and lasted more than ten days on average. In several instances between 1977 and 1979, the Democratic House resisted the Democratic Senate’s efforts to expand the number of cases for which federal funds, via Medicaid, could be used to pay for abortion. The government partially shut down three times for a total of 28 days between September and December 1977 as lawmakers negotiated a compromise on the issue, although it would be revisited several times during subsequent shutdowns.
The shutdowns of the Reagan-O’Neill era, on the other hand, were more budget-focused, and the disputes they involved were over a wider range of policies. They also took less time to resolve.” – When Tip Did It , National Review

When Tip Did It | National Review Online!

I in no way insinuated that I support the concept of national debt default. Actually I think it is totally irresponsible and the article you referenced presents that view well. That is exactly why the President has to swallow hard and put nation ahead of party. It is best of he does that now rather than waiting until he is forced with the Constitutional crisis decision that your reference describes. I personally have lived through the bad experience of taking over a company that was in default and resolving it while seeking to minimize the damage to all stakeholders. It was a very stressfull 8 months that I surely would not like to see on a national scale.(I sold it to someone who later failed)
 
Really??? Check this out. How was a budget fight over abortion funding different from fighting over ACA funding? Both were attempts to alter policy by funding actions.



When Tip Did It | National Review Online!

I in no way insinuated that I support the concept of national debt default. Actually I think it is totally irresponsible and the article you referenced presents that view well. That is exactly why the President has to swallow hard and put nation ahead of party. It is best of he does that now rather than waiting until he is forced with the Constitutional crisis decision that your reference describes. I personally have lived through the bad experience of taking over a company that was in default and resolving it while seeking to minimize the damage to all stakeholders. It was a very stressfull 8 months that I surely would not like to see on a national scale.(I sold it to someone who later failed)

There was no attempt to overturn a law that I can see and there was no funding for Obamacare that was attacked either. The AHC act has nothing to do with funding the Govt. with a CR. Laws like the AHC act have mechanisms that fund it automatically, without needing the Congress to keep approving it every year.
You claim to be against a default yet the same people and the same mechanisms the created this shutdown are in place for the debt ceiling. Of course they have now changed their tunes to focus on entitlements as they have abandoned their futile attempt to kill or weaken the AHC act. That leaves us with the question, why exactly is the Govt. still shutdown? Why can't we at least get a vote on the CR that is on Boehners desk? It was already passed by the House the only thing missing is the AHC rider which is not even a demand anymore.
 
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Why would you believe a word that Paul Ryan (actually one of his 'aides') writes or says? The man whose budget was so full of holes and magical wishes that not even his backers could figure out a way to make it work
Did you read all of the honorable Representative Ryan's budget, did you? Was it, by any slim chance, almost 3000 pages full of extra-strength holes like the stinker one by that, you just gotta admit, plain ugly two headed snake Pelosi-Reid,at the behest of the "boob", plunked like a big ol malodorous turd a-thumping down on reading tables of whichever poor souls assigned to start, much less required to get through much of it...

Peeeeeee-youueeeewww .
 
Why would they start now?

The deficit is shrinking faster than it has since the end of WWII. This is because of all of the cuts and compromises Obama has already made. We're currently budgeted at the same level as the Ryan Plan. Many economists think it's shrinking TOO FAST even. To insinuate that the Obama administration hasn't made cuts is just ignorant.
 
This is nothing but an insurgency and the perps are violating their oaths of office and the Constitution.
Republicans Are Awfully Close to Violating the Constitution - NationalJournal.com

It is easy to fall into the “Chicken Little Syndrome” when debating authorization of a debt ceiling increase.

The point that some radical Republicans are trying to make is that refusing to authorize a debt ceiling increase is not the same as forcing default. The article you cited suggests that Congressman as well as the President have a Constitutional requirement to assure that the US always pays its debts fully and on time. That is true but it is not necessarily true that a Congressional decision not to increase the debt ceiling means that they are directing the government to act in opposition to the 14th Amendment. In principle, the income stream flowing into the government greatly exceeds the outflow required to pay debt interest and there is no ban on selling new debt as old debt matures as long as the total debt remains constant. Thus, even in the event of failure to authorize a debt ceiling increase, the Executive Branch has the ability to manage the government operations and uphold the 14th Amendment as long as the debt interest payment is given the highest priority among all government expenditures. If the Executive Branch chooses not to adjust expenditure priorities so that the debt is kept out of default, then the President is liable to impeachment. In effect, failure to raise the debt ceiling is equivalent to immediate imposition of a balanced budget without any planning or forethought. It is likely that the Executive Branch will not be able to fund programs created in laws that were enacted by the Congress over the years, and hence it may not “fully comply with the law”. If Congress fails to pass authorization bills that are consistent with the debt ceiling, then the prioritization below the debt service requirement is the choice of the President and he certainly can’t be legitimately criticized for his trade-off choices regarding how full compliance with authorization laws will be compromised. It is not a Constitutional crisis unless the President chooses to create one.

As I wrote before, I have personal experience that is analogous. Myself, and a few partners, started a engineered custom process equipment manufacturing company that grew successfully for 10 years. We sold the company. The contract was for installment payments over five years. The new owners seemed to have no concept of expenditure restraint so after a couple years they had lost a large amount of money and had created an enormous debt anchor at Wells Fargo. As 2012 ended, it was becoming clear that 1) they would not be making the rest of the installment payments to us, 2) Wells Fargo would not renew the loan when the note came due March 1, and 3) the load would go into default so that in principle Wells Fargo could demand liquidation of the company. I managed to re-insert myself into the company and take control. At the time, there were three large projects that were partially complete – all were government projects with national defense priority ratings. The problem was 1) complete the projects, 2) pay off as much vendor debt as possible, 3) return more to Wells Fargo than they could get from liquidation, and 4) find an assets acquisition buyer that would continue operations after reorganization so that customers would be served and most of the employees’ jobs would be preserved – AND THIS HAD TO BE DONE WITH A FIXED DEBT CEILING AND WITHOUT ANY NEW EQUITY – ALL OPERATIONS COSTS NO MATTER HOW THEY FLUCTUATED HAD TO BE PAID OUT OF THE PRODUCTION INCOME STREAM NO MATTER HOW IT FLUCTUATED. If we ran out of cash, we would be forced to close and auction the equipment. I had no choice but to set very definite and strict payment priorities every week (these were primarily dictated by the need to acquire materials for production and pay production workers), to hold off suppliers demanding payment when cash was short, layoff non-essential staff in concert with completing projects, and hold cash when we had short term excess so that we could bridge the next period of low income (which meant keeping Wells Fargo from taking cash whenever the checking account balance grew). I had to constantly maintain Wells Fargo’s confidence that continued operations was more valuable than liquidation. We made it work for 8 months and accomplished all four objectives. The asset sale was completed in the first week of September. It takes tenacity and honesty with all stakeholders regarding how you are setting priorities to achieve the best outcome for all (as you can best judge) and to maintain their confidence and participation in creating a positive result out of a dire financial crisis. If the Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling, they will be playing the Wells Fargo role in my story – forcing operations costs not to exceed income no matter how the two flows fluctuate over time. The President will have to do what I did. It will be easier for him however, because he has adequate income to stay out of default. He will have to do the equivalent of my actions – constantly set and adjust spending priorities to operate and produce as best as possible. The priorities are not selected to maximize popularity and the stakeholders don’t get to vote on the priorities. It will be very painful and he will have to constantly build confidence in his management decisions so that those who lose out in the priorities accept and believe that they are contributing to the best interest of all affected parties. The old saying “it is lonely at the top” is very true.

Is this a good idea? Of course not! It will be a sudden disruptive economic change without a plan. It will be chaotic and inevitably cause economic contraction – damaging the economic condition of most of our population.

At the same time, healthy operations (businesses and many state governments) manage fluctuations by holding cash to bridge bad times, borrowing to manage negative cash flow fluctuations, and paying down debt when cash flow is positive so that they will have access to borrowing in the next bad cycle. I am 64 years old. In my entire adult life the government has increased its debt every year except a couple in the 1990’s. That is not using debt as a cash flow management tool. It is financing losses by borrowing which is what the people that bankrupted my company did. We need an honest commitment by the President and the key leaders in the Senate and House to achieve a balanced federal budget through increasing revenue and clearly stated expenditure priorities over a couple of years so that we avoid chaos of a precipitous change in government finances. They need to make that commitment in a way that they trust one another to follow through. And they need to make it now. Otherwise, the debt ceiling deadline will pass due to paralysis. Refusal to negotiate and refusal to move from extreme positions will assure the showdown. There comes a time when the President of the organization (my business or the nation) has to swallow hard, assess and balance the interests of all affected parties, attempt to discern the path that best serves all, and step forward to lead the solution accepting that if he does it right he will satisfy no one and dissatisfy few. That time is now for President Obama.
 
Boehner and the Republicans don't deserve any more spending cuts.

Obama has already cut spending tremendously.

You don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe Forbes. Or is Forbes part of "the liberal media elite"? (As singer Meat Loaf, a Republican, would say, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Who Is The Smallest Government Spender Since Eisenhower? Would You Believe It's Barack Obama? - Forbes

Who are you going to believe, Forbes magazine or the Obama Administration?

Im going to beleive the actual facts. Spending has not gone down.
 
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