Bitcoin (2 Viewers)

[Jezcoe]

Do you use a credit or debit card?

Yeah… but I deal in dollars and not an unregulated security based on burning electricity

 

[Jezcoe]

We are discussing multiple things here. One of them is sort of Keynesian economic philosophy versus Austrian. And that's one thing. And many arguments (ex. crypto is not stable) are certainly political.

The other subject is Bitcoin (and crypto, which in general I think is mostly garbage).

As someone who has been in this experiment for nearly 15 years and has even been a contributor to a project mentioned in this thread I humbly believe I am somewhat qualified to point out that this is where many of you are:

View attachment 67569371

If people referred to crypto as unregulated securities then I feel that they are being truthful.

When they say it is a currency… that is when I balk at it.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Yeah… but I deal in dollars and not an unregulated security based on burning electricity

You do you. I have no problem with that, but Bitcoin is not a security. Nor is it unregulated.

And I agree with you that Bitcoin is most certainly not being commonly used as a currency, not much at all. It can be, and it can be for all kinds of things on the internet and in some places in person, but it is not typically for many reasons.

And one of those reasons is the fact that it is volatile. At least it is volatile against the dollar and against the price of things ( In the worldwide medium of exchange, which is the US dollar) currently. It's a very complicated system to measure. So right now Bitcoin does its best work as being a very volatile store of value with the long term direction being up and to the right for the entire 15 years of its existence.

My personal philosophy is it will have to become a meaningful and proven store of value before anyone will begin to want to receive it for their goods and services.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Maybe Steak ‘n Shake is being run by idiots who want to get a publicity bang by being known for accepting Bitcoin? I remember the hoopla when Tesla...

Again. This is EXTREMELY logically unlikely. I was an IT professional who did multiple enterprise grade technical go-lives. The amount of work that goes to something like accepting a new payment method is non-trivial to say the least. Even something like new credit card terminals or cash registers is a HUGE deal that requires a technical plan, relationships with third party vendors (or enormous in house development which is possible but unlikely). You have to design workflows. And then you have to train your employees at all levels on how to do the workflows, and how to direct the customer if something goes wrong.

And this is the 20k foot view version of the plan. The details in implementing this would be a big job. The amount of time, effort, and money to implement this in a fast food PoS scenario makes "doing it for the publicity" crazypants.

Could SnS be implementing this badly? Could they have made the wrong decisions? Could the initiative turn out not to be worth it (for any number of reasons with several not having to do with Bitcoin working or not)? Is it still too early in Bitcoin's evolution to try something this ambitious?

The answer to all of these could be yes. But if they hired the right folks to guide them then a successful implementation is ENTIRELY possible. A LOT of these challenges have been solved by similar businesses in El Salvador already... And I would expect they plan to use the lightning network. Or who knows? Maybe they do something different by making you use the SnS app on your phone which you load with BTC value (called SATs) and can use to pay for your meals like you are using a gift card.

Tesla is really apples to oranges. We are talking about a $40k purchase rather than a $10-40 one. And just using the BTC base layer would be right in this case. For Tesla is is SUPER easy to implement. So it was also easy for them to do it, then change their minds. SnS is a retail PoS system, and it will be a completely different workflow. They will want the instant finality of the Bitcoin Lightning network or a digital gift card type system.

Is cryptocurrency widely held? And , is cryptocurrency widely accepted?

Every emerging technology has to go through growth pains. When cars were coming on to the scene they were derided as "rich mens toys" or "mechanical horses" which did a bad job of emulating the reliable known use of the actual horse. Electricity was thought of as dangerous.

Is it widely held? Well... 16% of U.S. adults had invested in, traded, or used cryptocurrency as of 2021 (per Pew Research), with adoption rising to 43% among 18–39-year-olds. THAT is 2021. 2025 is a different story for sure.

In 1998, clebrated keyensian economist Paul Krugman predicted that the Internet's impact on the economy would be no greater than that of the fax machine. For what it's worth Krugman is beginning to look as wrong about his proclaimations around Bitcoin.

Bitcoin, for example, has a 52-week range of 49,121.24 - 109,114.88. I want my currency to have stability, not wild volatility. Also, if Bitcoin is $103,879.00, and I’m wanting a burger basket meal at Steak ‘n Shake for $12.50, I want to know exactly how much money I have in my wallet. I don’t want that to fluctuate

OK. The volitility argument. The best one you have so far, and it still sucks.

This one is easy... If you "want (your) currency to have stability, not wild volatility" then just keep using the USD. And keep losing value slowly and gently until it's fast and violent. And keep blaming whatever political side you hate for this.The central driver to price inflation is monetary inflation. And Bitcoin is the first asset in human history to SOLVE that problem. 21 million coins. Hard capped.

As to not wanting to have to do some math? Waking up at SnS to see that you have $55.07 in your wallet vs $52.10. The scenario you cherry picked would be putting $50 in and then not using it for a year, and then being mad when its worth over 2x as much. Reconsider that distaste for successful value storage.

Now. There are SO MANY other things we are likely to see. For example I think we see the digital dollar running on treasurey back BTC and crypto (shitcoins) rails. This would breathe new life into the ever expanding American M2 and it's worldwide dominance. And it will also be used to continue to enslave the world... but though many will not be savvy enough to see the difference...

BITCOIN is the future.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

This one is easy... If you "want (your) currency to have stability, not wild volatility" then just keep using the USD. And keep losing value slowly and gently until it's fast and violent. And keep blaming whatever political side you hate for this.The central driver to price inflation is monetary inflation. And Bitcoin is the first asset in human history to SOLVE that problem. 21 million coins. Hard capped.

Now. There are SO MANY other things we are likely to see. For example I think we see the digital dollar running on treasurey back BTC and crypto (shitcoins) rails. This would breathe new life into the ever expanding American M2 and it's worldwide dominance. And it will also be used to continue to enslave the world... but though many will not be savvy enough to see the difference...

BITCOIN is the future.

Here is why I don't see Bitcoin taking the place of the dollar, or any other major currency - it's fixed. There are still schools of thought that believe a fixed amount of currency is workable, but they don't have realistic answers to real economic questions. They are basically still of the mind that money is neutral in economic calculations.

A modern economy runs on credit. You want a house? You get a mortgage and the bank creates the money you need on the spot. You want to increase production to expand your business? You get a loan. Economy in a recession? The government creates new money to spend and boost the economy.

For an economy to keep growing, demand injections must be greater than demand leakages. In the U.S. and most other big economies that don't depend on net exports, that means an increase in bank loans and federal deficit spending make up for the demand lost to savings.

I don't see how you can do any of that with Bitcoin.

 

[Grogu]

Again. This is EXTREMELY logically unlikely. I was an IT professional who did multiple enterprise grade technical go-lives. The amount of work that goes to something like accepting a new payment method is non-trivial to say the least. Even something like new credit card terminals or cash registers is a HUGE deal that requires a technical plan, relationships with third party vendors (or enormous in house development which is possible but unlikely). You have to design workflows. And then you have to train your employees at all levels on how to do the workflows, and how to direct the customer if something goes wrong. And this is the 20k foot view version of the plan. The details in implementing this would be a big job. The amount of time, effort, and money to implement this in a fast food PoS scenario makes "doing it for the publicity" crazypants.

This is where your argument falls apart. Basic business sense would dictate that with all of that effort, money, training, equipment, etc., they would be expecting a return on that investment. In other words, higher business volumes or the ability to raise prices to generate more income to offset this implementation. I asked you a simple question- do you plan on eating all of your meals at Steak ‘n Shake? Or more than you do today because you can use Bitcoin to pay? Or are you willing to pay a premium on their food for the ability to pay with Bitcoin?

Could SnS be implementing this badly? Could they have made the wrong decisions? Could the initiative turn out not to be worth it (for any number of reasons with several not having to do with Bitcoin working or not)? Is it still too early in Bitcoin's evolution to try something this ambitious? The answer to all of these could be yes. But if they hired the right folks to guide them then a successful implementation is ENTIRELY possible. A LOT of these challenges have been solved by similar businesses in El Salvador already... And I would expect they plan to use the lightning network. Or who knows? Maybe they do something different by making you use the SnS app on your phone which you load with BTC value (called SATs) and can use to pay for your meals like you are using a gift card.

That’s a whole lot of “ifs.” And I wouldn’t point to El Salvador for merchant solutions, where the adoption of Bitcoin failed. Only 8% of the population ever used it. As I stated previously, volatility was a huge problem, along with trust.

Tesla is really apples to oranges. <edited for word count>

Name some other wide-scale commercial businesses geared towards consumers that utilize Bitcoin.

Every emerging technology has to go through growth pains. When cars were coming on to the scene they were derided as "rich mens toys" or "mechanical horses" which did a bad job of emulating the reliable known use of the actual horse. Electricity was thought of as dangerous. Is it widely held? Well... 16% of U.S. adults had invested in, traded, or used cryptocurrency as of 2021 (per Pew Research), with adoption rising to 43% among 18–39-year-olds. THAT is 2021. 2025 is a different story for sure.

No, don’t turn to the investment aspect here. We’re talking practical end user utilization of Bitcoin.

OK. The volitility argument. The best one you have so far, and it still sucks. This one is easy... If you "want (your) currency to have stability, not wild volatility" then just keep using the USD. And keep losing value slowly and gently until it's fast and violent. And keep blaming whatever political side you hate for this.The central driver to price inflation is monetary inflation. And Bitcoin is the first asset in human history to SOLVE that problem. 21 million coins. Hard capped. As to not wanting to have to do some math? Waking up at SnS to see that you have $55.07 in your wallet vs $52.10. The scenario you cherry picked would be putting $50 in and then not using it for a year, and then being mad when it’s worth over 2x as much. <edited for word count>. BITCOIN is the future.

Or 4x less. Cheerleading at its finest. Good grief. The volatility issue is real, just like what I said about El Salvador. And previously in this thread I brought up security and hacking. See post #50. As I posted there, “Bitcoin has been exchanged since 2009. If there is still an “engineering problem” after fifteen years, then perhaps it’s not all that it’s cracked up to be.” And who’s going to be there to rescue you when some hacker steals your Bitcoin out of wallet or exchange? It’s not the future. It’s an unregulated side hustle.

 

[Econ4every1]

Crypto exists so the average person can finally escape all that surveillance-state garbage.

First, the "average" person doesn't fear the government or surveillance.

You're swapping one perceived problem for a much bigger problem. People will use untraceable currencies to do things like embezzle, hold for ransom, bribery, extortion, drug dealing, protection rackets and the list goes on. But hey, at least the government won't have the ability to obtain warrants with evidence to snoop on you. And yes, those things happen now, but crypto makes it easier because it is harder to trace. That makes it more difficult to catch criminals and provide evidence they are breaking the law.

Almost everything you advocate for is, metaphorically speaking, "out of the kettle into the fire". I agree with some of your assertions at some level, e.g. the government has and does it's powers, we're seeing it right now with the Felon-and-Chief, but your "solutions" would make things worse, much, much worse, not better.

The President is selling access to himself and the Whitehouse though crypto, and no one knows who will be purchasing the President because it can't be traced and, at least until there's some threat a Democrat might use these same powers, there's no desire to make rules around it.

The fix isn't to throw government in the trash and watch the vacuum pf power created as the government leaves with Oligarchs and cooperate interests.

 

[Econ4every1]

I don't see how you can do any of that with Bitcoin.

What they don't understand is when the quantity of money is held steady, then prices will be the thing that fluctuates. An unstable economy won't be a bug, but a feature of the economy they think they want. Unemployment up and down by double digits year-over-year. Investments outside of the next 90-days will come at incredible costs because the risk will be ever present. Nuclear power plant? Never ever get's built in a fixed money world. To expensive and too much risk. They complain about inflation, but don't understand that government spending reduces risk, even when it contributes to minimal and even moderate inflation.

It's like solving the problem of a check engine light that comes on in your car, by pulling the fuse that runs the light and believing the problem that caused the light to come on is fixed. /facepalm

I know I preaching to the choir.

 

[Threegoofs]

BITCOIN is the future.

Yes, for criminals.

 

[KevinKohler]

That's not true:

Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

You can open a business and only accept bitcoin, but you probably won't last very long. It also depends on local laws.

That applies to cash, not USD. Plenty of chashless businesses out there, but they have to accept USD as payment if its offered in credit/debit. If you operate a legal tax ID in the US, you are legally bound to accept USD as a form of payment.

 

[aociswundumho]

First, the "average" person doesn't fear the government or surveillance.

You're swapping one perceived problem for a much bigger problem. People will use untraceable currencies to do things like embezzle, hold for ransom, bribery, extortion, drug dealing, protection rackets and the list goes on.

Are you against cash for the same reason?

But hey, at least the government won't have the ability to obtain warrants with evidence to snoop on you. And yes, those things happen now, but crypto makes it easier because it is harder to trace. That makes it more difficult to catch criminals and provide evidence they are breaking the law.

Sorry, but the existence of bad actors doesn't justify restricting everyone else.

The President is selling access to himself and the Whitehouse though crypto, and no one knows who will be purchasing the President because it can't be traced

If crypto were untraceable, how do they even know access is being sold that way?

at least until there's some threat a Democrat might use these same powers, there's no desire to make rules around it.

Must be those "wrong incentives" you mentioned before. But don't worry, all you need is one more regulator or one more oversight committee and those wrong incentives will disappear like magic.

The fix isn't to throw government in the trash and watch the vacuum pf power created as the government leaves with Oligarchs and cooperate interests.

Crypto is about shifting power from centralized coercion to a voluntary system. And btw, we already have oligarchs running things.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Yes, for criminals.

Gosh, it's such a deep and amazingly prescient argument.

Crime being committed with Bitcoin is just a tiny sliver of crime being committed with the US dollar. While at the same time, BlackRock's most successful ETF offering by far is IBIT.

And though I would not suggest people believe that owning an ETF is exactly the same as holding their own Bitcoin. It does prove the point that legitimate uses of Bitcoin eclipse any sort of criminal activity.

Your tiny little lie of an argument is just simply that... Untrue.

 

[Jezcoe]

Crypto is about shifting power from centralized coercion to a voluntary system. And btw, we already have oligarchs running things.

Crypto is already centralized and controlled by oligarchs.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

This is where your argument falls apart. Basic business sense would dictate that with all of that effort, money, training, equipment, etc., they would be expecting a return on that investment.

So wait... do you think I am arguing that Bitcoin is a legitimate store of value with the potential to be used for commerce (more than it already is)? Or that I am arguing SnS will be successful with their gambit? Because you seem to be talking about the latter. My argument to you also started with the concept that they were just doing this as a "stunt" So you are moving the goalposts. I have never said they would be successful.

My argument is they must think they can be (not that they will be) and yours is (was!) "it is a stunt".

I asked you a simple question- do you plan on eating all of your meals at Steak ‘n Shake? Or more than you do today because you can use Bitcoin to pay? Or are you willing to pay a premium on their food for the ability to pay with Bitcoin?

OK The reason I did not answer this one the first time is because it is so brainless. Do I plan on eating ALL MY MEALS at SnS? Is THAT how you define success? But reducing it to a ridiculous binary? Of course not. That would likely kill me. I do not really like fast food in the first place. BUT!!! I will go... maybe once a month or something... because I respect the game. AND I do like the occasional burger. Pay a premium? Sure I will spend a few cents more if i have to. But I have literally never seen that with a BTC purchase (I have done MANY). In fact many online retailers give a DISCOUNT for paying with Bitcoin. Because #1 it is final settlement like cash. No need to worry about chargebacks. And #2 they do not have to pay a 3.5% fee on the transaction (and no... I do not know how SnS plans to handle things.)

Name some other wide-scale commercial businesses geared towards consumers that utilize Bitcoin.

Do your own research. I am not looking shit up for you. But here are some businesses that directly accept bitcoin:
Virgin Galactic, Microsoft, Namecheap, NordVPN, CheapAir.com, Mullvad, Newegg, Overstock.com, Proton Mail. And that's just a few off the top of my head.

And there are MANY MANY more for which you can use partner apps or giftcards to spend bitcoin. Like Starbucks, Home Depot, Amazon... I mean can pretty much buy anything I want with Bitcoin. I am not saying it is frictionless now. But this is why PoS vendors like SnS are trying something important. Bitcoin is not yet a payment system... currently it is more of a safeguard your value in something that cannot be inflated system.
And THIS is why SnS is doing this. Someone at the company recognized this and is taking a chance.

No, don’t turn to the investment aspect here. We’re talking practical end user utilization of Bitcoin.

Oh I am sorry.. YOU get to define the rules of our discussion? Well screw that. Afterall you just said the wrond "stunt" to start it... your rules were not clear and seem to be changing as we go. AND they are idiotic.

I said what i said. Bitcoin is a STORE OF VALUE. Right now the #1 use case by FAR is to avoid being fleeced by the money printers.

Bitcoin is currently acting as "digital gold". But it has potential gold does not have. It is digital. Native to the internet, and can be scaled in ways we are just now starting to see.

Or 4x less. Cheerleading at its finest. Good grief. The volatility issue is real.

I am not afraid of volitility. I embrace it.


Yup! Not vollitile at all. But like flushing your stored value down a toilet.


Yup! Quite vollitile. There are 80% drawdown you can barely even see in there they are so flat at this point. I lived through one circa 2014. RIGHT under the "i" in Trading View.

I will bet on chart #2. I admit it is an unknown. But chart #1 has PROVEN beyond any doubt the tragectory of the premier FIAT asset on Earth.

It's simple math. Bitcoin is savings tech first... Satoshi wanted it to be about payment. Whomever he/she/they were could certainly see into the future somewhat... but it has to be a Store of Value before it has much hope of being a Medium of exchange.

I am rooting for Steak n Shake.

 

[Revelation]

Instead they could have raised taxes and sold bonds.

could have, should have but that was NOT the plan...

And they certainly could have renegotiated their reparations debt.

nope, because WW One and WW two were already determined to center on Germany. the Oligarchs and secret societies needed germany and adolph to carry out their World Wide fascist plans. so WW two was a dry run to see how fascism works.

they decided that Fascism works better than Capitalism, so Dark Maga hit in 2024 with muck raising awareness of the 'new' trend in fascism.

Dark Maga will rid itself of traditional government and Bitcoin paves the way for Crypto type of Financial Instruments.

eventually all of this will be Folded into CBDC and Blockchain after the new big War prolly this year. (well at least now you know all of my April 8 fans)

It was going to be a bad outcome no matter what they did, but the hyperinflation was the wrong choice. It wiped out the middle class and gave rise to Hitler.

from you POV hyperinflation was the 'wrong choice'. for the Oligarch engineers, this went exactly as planned. the Central Bankers financed the rise of Adolph cause germany was broke.

when i challenge history students concerning this problem; where did Adolph get his cash when germany was broke, they have no clue.

try it on this forum, you will not get a peep or some one shouts 'tinfoil hat' and attempt to look Very Smart............but they are just as clueless. some even know the Truth but go into hiding cause they fraid of everyone elseo

that is where i step in and start Teaching class.

Good luck suggesting an outcome worse than that.

 

[Revelation]

Because compared to using cash or a credit card, crypto is slow and inconvenient. But that's just an engineering problem that will be solved, especially when AI gets into the mix. I'll be starting a thread on that soon.

great, i wanna see how accurate you are.

will you discuss that crypto is just a Dry Run for the real CBDC and Blockchain on the World Wide financial agenda ?

if so, then PM me and we can both move on this in Concert together. the sheep need quality info on what will hit them when the Dollar fails, some here have Zillions in IRA's and maybe they will get nervous when the Dollar loses value and goes South.

sheep get very Angry when they lose their entire Life Savings as in the 1929 stock market crash. the rich did not, and bought stock for pennies on the dollar because they were warned before hand. the Oligarchy tends to do things that way. but Ben Bernanke apologized for the Crash and admitted the fed caused it.

so sorry; really they are, wink.

.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Crypto is already centralized and controlled by oligarchs.

Is this an actual argument? Or some song lyrics written by a Bernie Sanders fan?

First of all "Crypto" is a lot of junk (and most likely a small handful of valuable ideas.. Monero for example.). BITCOIN stands apart from all the meme coins and other penny-stock like garbage. I would be glad to explain the difference but not to someone that has not proven to me they could understand the explanation.

Now.. to expand on your over simplified point FOR you...

I DO think Bitcoin has a risk that the banks/etc may be trying to centralize holdings like they did with gold. But Bitcoin has different tradeoffs than gold which make this very dangerous for the "oligarch". The big corporate holders like Blackrock, Fidelity, Strategy (MSTR), and so on are gathering up giant portions of the limited supply. And MUCH of this is being custodied by third parties with way too much in my opinion being held by Coinbase. This makes Coinbase a honeypot, and if someone could figure out how to steal the BTC held there. OR if Coinbase just started being a fractional reserve (which is illegal for those of you who want to go down the "unregulated" argument) it could be quite bad...

But then there is the other side of this.

Blackrock. Larry Fink has said clearly and several times that he believes Bitcoin is a VERY important part of the future in digital assets. Do you really think that company would kill the golden goose? Their Bitcoin ETF is BY FAR the best performing ETF instrument released by the company that basically invented Exchange Traded Fund products.

IBIT (the Blackrock Bitcoin ETF) this THE MOST SUCCESSFUL Exchange Traded Product OF ALL TIME.

https://www.nasdaq.com/newsroom/5-things-you-should-know-about-ibit-most-successful-spot-bitcoin-etp

^^ Nasdaq saying this.

Could Bitcoin somehow fail?
Of course.

Could it stop being a good investment?
Of course.

Will the Bitcoin price fall precipitously again?
I would bet on it. Because Bitcoin is the purest free market asset currently and ever. It trades 24 hours a day 365 days a year. It is decentralized and no country can control it (so far). If masses of people sell it it WILL FALL in value. And it is a market than can be manipulated like any other. And WITHOUT guardrails (surprise! *I* think this is a good thing). So people can set up shorts, manipulate the market and try to make money that way. But with BTC those people can also go broke faster than they can blink. Because there is no central bank to bail them out. There is no way to print Bitcoin to bail out the big losers.

Do you not think the "oligarchs" realize this? Do you not think Blackrock (er... there's your oligarch) realizes this?

And by the way. I am not a fan of the ETFs. I think they are a rugpull waiting to happen.

Self custody is the way.

But it is hard, and fraught with danger.

Honestly... EVERY real opportunity is... at first.

 

[Revelation]

Bitcoin is not a stablecoin.

true

Which point on this chart are you referring to:


View attachment 67558579

great chart. every Fiat currency in History has gone down to Zero value eventually: every. single. one.

and there have been hundreds of them that have failed. i used to collect them, wish i had my old collection today when i do lectures on this.

people believe in the Dollar, and that is what keeps it useful; however what they don't understand is that every dollar will return to ZERO as the chart suggests. it may happen this year as the Orange converts us over to CBDC depending on where we are at on the Globalist Agenda.

i think we are close.

Cash is also good for crime.

Where crypto will shine is in tax evasion.

at the high levels, there actually are Trillions missing from our Treasury. start there if you wanna talk about Crime.

but millions in street crime, meh not so much. pocket change people.

moving along, and yeah i like this chart; it helps the Sheep understand where they are at on the Financial map: 'you are here'.....


........people, is your Dollar worth much anymore? where will we be Next Year?

i kinda know, but let's put that out for the rest of you to guess. maybe start a thread to see how close the dollar will be to Zero next year.


.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

The big corporate holders like Blackrock, Fidelity, Strategy (MSTR), and so on are gathering up giant portions of the limited supply.

One more thing.

Doesn't that line above tell you more than you need to know? You might downplay MSTR. But Blackrock? Fidelity? Not to mention nation States (and enemies of each other at times!) other billionaires, and so on?

hello?

 

[Revelation]

We just didn't give Biden enough time - he was doing his best and was getting us there...

not true. the Central Bankers will drive the dollar down to zero when they are thru with it. they will then issue CBDC, that IS the plan for the future Dark Maga Technocracy world of the future.

sorry, people please look at this as a Lonnnnnnnnnng Range problem the Oligarchy has solved. (groan, always have to correct for these kinds of errors.)

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Here is why I don't see Bitcoin taking the place of the dollar, or any other major currency - it's fixed. There are still schools of thought that believe a fixed amount of currency is workable, but they don't have realistic answers to real economic questions. They are basically still of the mind that money is neutral in economic calculations.

A modern economy runs on credit. You want a house? You get a mortgage and the bank creates the money you need on the spot. You want to increase production to expand your business? You get a loan. Economy in a recession? The government creates new money to spend and boost the economy.

For an economy to keep growing, demand injections must be greater than demand leakages. In the U.S. and most other big economies that don't depend on net exports, that means an increase in bank loans and federal deficit spending make up for the demand lost to savings.

I don't see how you can do any of that with Bitcoin.

These are good and interesting questions in my humble opinion.

There really is no one alive (or not many for sure) that have lived under anything but a debt based (Keynesian) system. In some ways we have all been trained to live in an upside down world. Everything we do is debt based. The issuance of new money is debt based.

Think about it. Today:

1. You go to college and rack up somewhere between $50k-200k+ in debt.
2. You buy a car so you can travel for work, food etc and incur another 20-60k. (typically more than once in a lifetime)
3. You eventually decide to buy a house $300-700k (with that much again in interest!)
4. You are taxed on everything you do. And everything you have. Even after you are OLD and have paid off your house you might end up paying a significant percentage of the original amortized monthly payment in perpetuity just to meet rising insurance and tax costs.
5. Even when you sell your house you cannot keep the total gains which might not even be enough to cover all the expenses in the end (so much for "equity").

FINALLY if you are VERY fortunate at the end as you decline and prepare to die in many cases the healthcare system will vacuum up everything left. Or you can just die earlier relying on the social safety nets.

Obviously there are several things in the above we can spend time arguing about in other threads... as this becomes political quickly, But the mechanics of the above are irrefutable.

But back to Bitcoin. Assuming it continues to succeed there will only be 21,000,000 of them. So CURRENTLY there is enough bitcoin for each living human to own about 0.0025 of one (21M/8.5B). That's about $250 currently. For each living human. For their ENTIRE LIFE. Can you see how it could be under priced?

But there is a property of Bitcoin that has never really been seen in an asset. It is practically infinitely divisible. Currently it goes to 8 decimal points. Bitcoinners call this unit a "sat" (after Satoshi). So there are 100 million sats in 1BTC. (so each human could earn 250000 SATS over a lifetime on average) Do we need a more granular Bitcoin because it is being used by so many people? Easy... add a couple zeros. You do not change the limit... but you can make a more liquid unit by simply diving it further.

This, in combination with the fact BTC is hard money and finite is the possible coup de grace for FIAT I believe. This takes care of most of the problems being "solved" by liquidity injections. Except for the bailouts for the rich.

The last piece of the puzzle is velocity. And this is an unknown in my opinion. It is only discussed in theory.

In a world based on hard money there is more incentive to not spend. Keyensians tend to take this to the extreme where you have the rich hoarding and the poor eating bugs out of the trash. But I am not sure it will be that way. We will still need to buy food, shelter, clothing, transportation and other needs. And we will still WANT to buy nice things. But we won't have to constantly be buying plastic garbage, and "playing the markets" or "investing in real estate" to try to keep the value we have in something other than paper that can be diluted by another man on a whim.

 

[Threegoofs]

Gosh, it's such a deep and amazingly prescient argument.

Crime being committed with Bitcoin is just a tiny sliver of crime being committed with the US dollar. While at the same time, BlackRock's most successful ETF offering by far is IBIT.

And though I would not suggest people believe that owning an ETF is exactly the same as holding their own Bitcoin. It does prove the point that legitimate uses of Bitcoin eclipse any sort of criminal activity.

Your tiny little lie of an argument is just simply that... Untrue.

The only two legitimate uses for it are criminal activity and speculation.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

@grogo I apologize for confusing you with the other poster that I was debating with. @jezco.

I've accused you of your entire argument being "stunt" when it wasn't. But other than that issue, I stand behind what I said.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

The only two legitimate uses for it are criminal activity and speculation.

This is simply not true.

I have used it for neither of those purposes personally. I've never done anything criminal with Bitcoin nor am I a speculator.

I store value in it just as you store value in the US dollar in your bank account. ( I also have some value in that form out of necessity currently.)

So I am no more speculating than you are.

Could my value stored in Bitcoin crashed to zero? Yes. But your value stored in the US dollar can also become worthless. In fact, over the entire lifetime of the US dollar, that's exactly what has happened. And that's a much larger time frame.

So I guess if you want to say I'm a speculator, I'm okay with it, but you have to call yourself that too in that case.

 

[Threegoofs]

This is simply not true.

I have used it for neither of those purposes personally. I've never done anything criminal with Bitcoin nor am I a speculator.

I store value in it just as you store value in the US dollar in your bank account. ( I also have some value in that form out of necessity currently.)

So I am no more speculating than you are.

Could my value stored in Bitcoin crashed to zero? Yes. But your value stored in the US dollar can also become worthless. In fact, over the entire lifetime of the US dollar, that's exactly what has happened. And that's a much larger time frame.

So I guess if you want to say I'm a speculator, I'm okay with it, but you have to call yourself that too in that case.

I guess there are three purposes.

The third would be duping the rubes.

And if you can’t figure out who the mark at the table is….