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Biden Tells Protester to 'Vote for Trump'

It's not lying.
Factually, yes, you have repeatedly lied, deliberately misrepresenting my comment.

First of all, as we've discussed previously you're interpreting protection in a way that isn't necessarily merited.
I interpreted Cosecha’s goal correctly. You are the one unwilling to acknowledge the group’s stated goal.

Here’s another reference. Review it and tell me that it also, isn’t clear enough for you.
“ Cosecha activists rolled out their "Dignity 2020 campaign" earlier this month, calling for the Democratic candidate to end all detention and deportation of immigrants, legalize the 11 million undocumented immigrants already in the country and commit to family reunification for individuals separated by detention and deportation.
Protesters Block International Tunnel Near Debate to Challenge Bipartisan Immigration Policy

Second, yes, to assert that "For what purpose do you think they want a moratorium, other than to seek to weaken our laws and allow even more illegal immigrants to stay here, permanently?" is to imply that their ultimate aim with a moratorium is as a first step towards a substantive undermining of the ability of this country to deport and enforce immigration law.

If you actually meant to say that they're looking to get the Trump laws and policy stricken and overturned, well yes, obviously; that's very much the point of the moratorium.
Wrong again. I meant exactly what I said, and Cosecha’s stated goals affirm my view, 100%.

Laws can make the effective passage or enforcement of other contradicting laws more difficult.
Can you cite one American law that works that way?

That's not what I meant at all.
It is what you said, but I’ll accept that you simply misspoke.

1. I simply disagree that an apology for objectionable behaviour is tantamount to a liability, and even if it somehow was, it probably wouldn't even make the GOP radar in terms of weaponization given the utter litany of far more damaging things for the Republicans to focus on RE: Biden.

2. What I am saying is that, though one should obviously vote for Biden over Trump, Biden would be a liability were he to win.
1. You haven’t been paying attention to the Republican Party over the last few years. Trump has taught it’s members how to go much, much lower. They will use anything they can against opponents.

2. Whatever liability he may be is far less concerning to most Americans.

Yes, we really are that sick of Trump. Isn’t the whole civilized world?
 
Joe Biden lashes out at protesters, telling one to '''vote for Trump''' - Business Insider

Biden says, ‘Vote for Trump,’ to immigration activist



Incredible. Of course it wasn't even given a single mention on CNN or MSNBC (not to my knowledge after some searching), showing up literally everywhere else in the media.

The sheer arrogance (or idiocy) of Biden is simply staggering; from the sound of things, you might figure he had already won the nomination, and there isn't a broad field of superior alternatives to a scarcely articulate man with probable dementia high on his own hubris.


I don't see the big deal with these kinds of things. What's the harm in telling someone to go vote for the person you know they were going to vote for anyway?
 
I interpreted Cosecha’s goal correctly. You are the one unwilling to acknowledge the group’s stated goal.

Here’s another reference. Review it and tell me that it also, isn’t clear enough for you.
“ Cosecha activists rolled out their "Dignity 2020 campaign" earlier this month, calling for the Democratic candidate to end all detention and deportation of immigrants, legalize the 11 million undocumented immigrants already in the country and commit to family reunification for individuals separated by detention and deportation.
Protesters Block International Tunnel Near Debate to Challenge Bipartisan Immigration Policy

I cross referenced this with some other sources. Yeah, I don't like it. Temporary moratorium until such time Trump's immigration policy is replaced? Sure. Reunification? No problem. Blanket legalization without nuance? That's a no for sure.


Can you cite one American law that works that way?

I mean it's an inherent truism.

If you have two conflicting laws, or an existing law that says you cannot enforce aspects of another, obviously you're going to have a problem. Generally existing legal conflicts are evaluated and resolved as a rule vis a vis new legislation, thus actual conflicts when they happen overwhelmingly occur between jurisdictions (State vs Federal for example: Conflict of laws in the United States - Wikipedia ), but that takes time, effort, and political capital, which services the point of creating obstacles.

It is what you said, but I’ll accept that you simply misspoke.

If you say so. I feel what was said was pretty clear and evident per the context.

1. You haven’t been paying attention to the Republican Party over the last few years. Trump has taught it’s members how to go much, much lower. They will use anything they can against opponents.

2. Whatever liability he may be is far less concerning to most Americans.

Yes, we really are that sick of Trump. Isn’t the whole civilized world?

1. There is such a litany of compelling stuff to use against Biden that citing or drawing attention to something like a reasonable apology is just not good strategy because it distracts from far more damaging things.

2. Again, I'd rather not go with the guy clearly wrestling with dementia; by liability I think there is a very real possibility he will lose versus someone else, and I have no confidence in him.
 
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I don't see the big deal with these kinds of things. What's the harm in telling someone to go vote for the person you know they were going to vote for anyway?

Why on earth would an immigration protester who was a 2008 Obama volunteer, is pressing Biden over his involvement with Obama's immigration policy, and who explicitly said he would not vote for Trump, 'vote for Trump anyways'? Someone who is materially worse on the matter of apparent greatest importance to him?
 
Why on earth would an immigration protester who was a 2008 Obama volunteer, is pressing Biden over his involvement with Obama's immigration policy, and who explicitly said he would not vote for Trump, 'vote for Trump anyways'? Someone who is materially worse on the matter of apparent greatest importance to him?

OK. You win. I admit that you have a very valid point.
 
I cross referenced this with some other sources. Yeah, I don't like it. Temporary moratorium until such time Trump's immigration policy is replaced? Sure. Reunification? No problem. Blanket legalization without nuance? That's a no for sure.
Glad to read that you finally believe what should have been clear to you from the link I provided earlier. :thumbs:

Also, you do realize that any moratorium on deportations has to be approved by the same person who’s policies you disagree with, right?

I mean it's an inherent truism.

If you have two conflicting laws, or an existing law that says you cannot enforce aspects of another, obviously you're going to have a problem. Generally existing legal conflicts are evaluated and resolved as a rule vis a vis new legislation, thus actual conflicts when they happen overwhelmingly occur between jurisdictions (State vs Federal for example: Conflict of laws in the United States - Wikipedia ), but that takes time, effort, and political capital, which services the point of creating obstacles.
You proposed the notion of creating new law(s) with the specific intent of prohibiting, or at least making more difficult, the passing of any new law that opposes it.

When state laws conflict with federal law, unless there’s a clear Constitutional issue raised by the state, federal law trumps.

1. There is such a litany of compelling stuff to use against Biden that citing or drawing attention to something like a reasonable apology is just not good strategy because it distracts from far more damaging things.

2. Again, I'd rather not go with the guy clearly wrestling with dementia; by liability I think there is a very real possibility he will lose versus someone else, and I have no confidence in him.
1. I agree with you that there’s decades worth of crap about Biden that Trump’s campaign could, and likely will, use. That doesn’t mean however, that Trump wouldn’t, at least, troll Biden for “being weak” just to get another petty dig in.

2. It’s a real possibility that Trump would chew Biden up in a debate setting. Trump is more than happy to jump in the gutter and lie his ass off. Not the kind of match up Biden’s best suited for.

What we need is someone who is unflappable under attack from Trump’s juvenile behavior and lies. Someone who can remain calm while knocking down Trump’s many lies, and challenge him on his many failures. Right now, I don’t see that person in the current field of challengers, but I could be wrong. Hopefully after slicing each up for a few months a real fighter will emerge.
 
Glad to read that you finally believe what should have been clear to you from the link I provided earlier.

The word 'protection' is nebulous; their Dignity 2020 mission statement is however, very explicit.

Also, you do realize that any moratorium on deportations has to be approved by the same person who’s policies you disagree with, right?

I have no expectations of any moratorium passing until we have a requisite change in political leadership that is amenable to it.


You proposed the notion of creating new law(s) with the specific intent of prohibiting, or at least making more difficult, the passing of any new law that opposes it.

Yes, exactly.

The more legislative barriers and conflicts that exist between existing and pending legislation and that need to be reconciled, the more time, effort and political capital that needs to be expended in terms of drafting and passing countervailing law; I'm speaking specific to the federal level; I only brought up the State as an example of where actual conflicts tend to happen.

1. I agree with you that there’s decades worth of crap about Biden that Trump’s campaign could, and likely will, use. That doesn’t mean however, that Trump wouldn’t, at least, troll Biden for “being weak” just to get another petty dig in.

2. It’s a real possibility that Trump would chew Biden up in a debate setting. Trump is more than happy to jump in the gutter and lie his ass off. Not the kind of match up Biden’s best suited for.

What we need is someone who is unflappable under attack from Trump’s juvenile behavior and lies. Someone who can remain calm while knocking down Trump’s many lies, and challenge him on his many failures. Right now, I don’t see that person in the current field of challengers, but I could be wrong. Hopefully after slicing each up for a few months a real fighter will emerge.

1. I mean, either it's going to be brought up as an afterthought mention that doesn't really hurt Biden (while hurting him significantly in the primaries), or it's going to be focused on to Biden's benefit (because there's so much else that's far worse).

2. Unfortunately Democrats have resigned themselves to holding what has thus far been, with a couple of exceptions, an overtly friendly 'pattycake primary' rather than a serious proving ground and winnowing field where people like Biden can coast by relatively unscathed. Having said that, I do think Bernie would at the very least hold his own against Trump, and would in all probability excel against him; he's a man that unapologetically cuts through the bull****, has no patience for nonsense, and tells it like it is. The press often calls him angry, grumpy, and aggressive as though this were bad thing when the truth is that, combined with his brutal honesty, this is exactly what is needed.
 
The word 'protection' is nebulous; their Dignity 2020 mission statement is however, very explicit.
Those nebulous words can be tricky for some folks. ;)

I have no expectations of any moratorium passing until we have a requisite change in political leadership that is amenable to it.
Don’t hold your breath. Even moderate Dems won’t agree with a complete moratorium on deportations. Maybe just illegal immigrants with no other criminal history, but definitely not all illegal immigrants.

Yes, exactly.

The more legislative barriers and conflicts that exist between existing and pending legislation and that need to be reconciled, the more time, effort and political capital that needs to be expended in terms of drafting and passing countervailing law; I'm speaking specific to the federal level; I only brought up the State as an example of where actual conflicts tend to happen..
I understand what you’re getting at, but my question remains; can you cite any American law that has been passed specifically to counter another existing law that does not include language that repeals the existing law (in part or whole)?

1. I mean, either it's going to be brought up as an afterthought mention that doesn't really hurt Biden (while hurting him significantly in the primaries), or it's going to be focused on to Biden's benefit (because there's so much else that's far worse).

2. Unfortunately Democrats have resigned themselves to holding what has thus far been, with a couple of exceptions, an overtly friendly 'pattycake primary' rather than a serious proving ground and winnowing field where people like Biden can coast by relatively unscathed. Having said that, I do think Bernie would at the very least hold his own against Trump, and would in all probability excel against him; he's a man that unapologetically cuts through the bull****, has no patience for nonsense, and tells it like it is. The press often calls him angry, grumpy, and aggressive as though this were bad thing when the truth is that, combined with his brutal honesty, this is exactly what is needed.
1. We can at least agree that whatever, if anything, is made of Biden’s comment or any possible mea culpa, it won’t mean amount to much compared to all the other potential attacks by Trump.

2. I agree that the Dem candidates have been too friendly, trying to demonstrate a contrast from Trump and his support system of sycophants and zombie supporters. Most Americans, no doubt, are tired of Trump’s WWE brand of politics, but still want to be convinced by a strong appealing opposing voice.

I also agree that Sanders is as close to honest as any longtime politician can be, and would be able to hold his own against Trump. Too bad he’s so far left. Too far left to appeal to the majority of Americans.
 
Those nebulous words can be tricky for some folks.

Well, as I pointed out, protection can mean many things.

Don’t hold your breath. Even moderate Dems won’t agree with a complete moratorium on deportations. Maybe just illegal immigrants with no other criminal history, but definitely not all illegal immigrants.

To be honest, I would be satisfied with a non-universal moratorium.

I understand what you’re getting at, but my question remains; can you cite any American law that has been passed specifically to counter another existing law that does not include language that repeals the existing law (in part or whole)?

Off the top of my head no. I've no doubt that there's probably some instance, as I cannot imagine that centuries of legislation have occurred without any such conflicts occurring, even if by way of oversights, but that's not the thrust of my point, which is that the passage of certain laws can make the deployment of other contrary laws materially more difficult.

1. We can at least agree that whatever, if anything, is made of Biden’s comment or any possible mea culpa, it won’t mean amount to much compared to all the other potential attacks by Trump.

2. I agree that the Dem candidates have been too friendly, trying to demonstrate a contrast from Trump and his support system of sycophants and zombie supporters. Most Americans, no doubt, are tired of Trump’s WWE brand of politics, but still want to be convinced by a strong appealing opposing voice.

I also agree that Sanders is as close to honest as any longtime politician can be, and would be able to hold his own against Trump. Too bad he’s so far left. Too far left to appeal to the majority of Americans.

1. Definitely.

2. I will say this: if Dems let a weak candidate coast and take the mantle, try to turn this into a mud slinging contest, or otherwise make this about being against Trump rather than being for something as Hillary did, they'll get crushed.

As to Sanders, per the facts as they currently stand, he polls pretty well as is being rivaled in measures of the general only by Biden, and there generally seems to be significant support of his pillar ideas among the general population. I think he's the best shot the Dems have easily.
 
To be honest, I would be satisfied with a non-universal moratorium.
I wouldn’t prefer a moratorium, but would be amenable if it were for a brief specified time period in order to eliminate/update outdated/inhumane practices in existing laws.

2. I will say this: if Dems let a weak candidate coast and take the mantle, try to turn this into a mud slinging contest, or otherwise make this about being against Trump rather than being for something as Hillary did, they'll get crushed.
Agree.

As to Sanders, per the facts as they currently stand, he polls pretty well as is being rivaled in measures of the general only by Biden, and there generally seems to be significant support of his pillar ideas among the general population. I think he's the best shot the Dems have easily.
Sanders is polling in the top 3 of just about every current survey, but there’s still a ways to go and numerous other candidates still in the running.

As for his platform, Sanders’ number one issue, “Medicare for all”, isn’t going over as well with the American public as he’d like. While it’s true that a majority of Americans like the idea of a centralized/free healthcare system, many are not onboard with his idea of doing away with all private insurance.

Many, myself included, are happy with their current health insurance and do not want to be forced to give it up. As more Americans learn details of Sanders’ plan, the polling numbers continue dropping.

In addition to Sanders’ desire to force all Americans into a government run health insurance program, he also advocates for free college, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed housing, tighter gun ownership restrictions, and even allowing imprisoned felons guilty of the most heinous crimes to vote.

Many of his socialist ideas are repugnant to Americans who believe in personal freedoms/responsibility and self reliance.

I respect Sanders’ POV, and will vote for him if it’s the only way to get rid of Trump, but he is most certainly not at the top of my list.
 
I wouldn’t prefer a moratorium, but would be amenable if it were for a brief specified time period in order to eliminate/update outdated/inhumane practices in existing laws.

Sounds good to me.

Sanders is polling in the top 3 of just about every current survey, but there’s still a ways to go and numerous other candidates still in the running.

As for his platform, Sanders’ number one issue, “Medicare for all”, isn’t going over as well with the American public as he’d like. While it’s true that a majority of Americans like the idea of a centralized/free healthcare system, many are not onboard with his idea of doing away with all private insurance.

Many, myself included, are happy with their current health insurance and do not want to be forced to give it up. As more Americans learn details of Sanders’ plan, the polling numbers continue dropping.

In addition to Sanders’ desire to force all Americans into a government run health insurance program, he also advocates for free college, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed housing, tighter gun ownership restrictions, and even allowing imprisoned felons guilty of the most heinous crimes to vote.

Many of his socialist ideas are repugnant to Americans who believe in personal freedoms/responsibility and self reliance.

I respect Sanders’ POV, and will vote for him if it’s the only way to get rid of Trump, but he is most certainly not at the top of my list.

Personally, I don't agree with Sanders 100% on everything (MFA, free college, badly infrastructure investment/modernization, campaign finance reform and climate change initiatives being my key issues, not necessarily in that order), but that's going to be true of every politico under the sun; having said that, he definitely has the most overlap, and unlike every other politico under the sun, I can actually trust that he will do what he says, even if others try to get in the way and impede him in the House and Senate. Speaking of which, there's no way he'll be able to pass everything; in the end, he'll have to pick and choose, which means he'll opt for the stuff with the best cross-section of impact and popularity.

As to MFA specifically, though there are some (push) polls which demonstrates that popularity falls off when the abolition of private insurance is mentioned, there are two notable caveats, one being that private insurers will continue to exist in a supplemental role as they do in other SP regimes like Canada and the UK, and popularity more than recovers when it is further elaborated that people will be able to retain their providers, which of course makes sense: why would people have love for the value vampirizing middle man?
 
LMFAO now even the Obama cultists are facepalming. Oml what a failure of a campaign Mr. Biden. I almost feel sorry for the guy.

 
Personally, I don't agree with Sanders 100% on everything (MFA, free college, badly infrastructure investment/modernization, campaign finance reform and climate change initiatives being my key issues, not necessarily in that order), but that's going to be true of every politico under the sun; having said that, he definitely has the most overlap, and unlike every other politico under the sun, I can actually trust that he will do what he says, even if others try to get in the way and impede him in the House and Senate. Speaking of which, there's no way he'll be able to pass everything; in the end, he'll have to pick and choose, which means he'll opt for the stuff with the best cross-section of impact and popularity.

As to MFA specifically, though there are some (push) polls which demonstrates that popularity falls off when the abolition of private insurance is mentioned, there are two notable caveats, one being that private insurers will continue to exist in a supplemental role as they do in other SP regimes like Canada and the UK, and popularity more than recovers when it is further elaborated that people will be able to retain their providers, which of course makes sense: why would people have love for the value vampirizing middle man?
Aside from getting rid of Trump (a great thing to be sure), Sanders likely won’t be able to accomplish any of his major objectives. The majority of Americans political bias skews center right which is bad for the wishes of a possible president who’s political leaning is far left.

If Sanders actually believes that he can move the majority of Americans to accepting his Medicare for all idea, he’s gonna be in for an unpleasant surprise. Same for his other BS “free stuff”/uber liberal ideas like free college, guaranteed jobs/housing, a moratorium on deportations and liberal immigration reform, more restrictive gun laws, etc. He might succeed in at least decriminalizing marijuana though.

In other words, if Sanders wins, nothing of significance will get done for the next four years.

* It’s not just push polls that reflect the majority of Americans not interested in Medicare for all.
“ According to a July 22 poll from the PBS NewsHour, NPR and Marist, 70 percent of U.S. adults said they supported Medicare for All proposals as long as they maintain an option to keep private health insurance. A system like this has been proposed by Pete Buttigieg. By comparison, when asked in a separate question, only 41 percent of survey respondents said they wanted to scrap private health insurance for a government-run plan.”
Americans need more convincing on Medicare for All, poll says | PBS NewsHour
 
Aside from getting rid of Trump (a great thing to be sure), Sanders likely won’t be able to accomplish any of his major objectives. The majority of Americans political bias skews center right which is bad for the wishes of a possible president who’s political leaning is far left.

If Sanders actually believes that he can move the majority of Americans to accepting his Medicare for all idea, he’s gonna be in for an unpleasant surprise. Same for his other BS “free stuff”/uber liberal ideas like free college, guaranteed jobs/housing, a moratorium on deportations and liberal immigration reform, more restrictive gun laws, etc. He might succeed in at least decriminalizing marijuana though.

In other words, if Sanders wins, nothing of significance will get done for the next four years.

But the majority of Americans are aligned with him on these ideas. The obstacle is not popularity so much as opposing representatives that care more about who's issuing their campaign finance cheques, and lavishing them with lobbyist rimjobs than the whims of their constituents:

Majority of voters support free college, eliminating student debt | TheHill (yes, there are some outlier polls like the ever biased Ramussen and one Quinnipiac poll I'm aware of that show narrow majority opposition)

Wealth Tax and Free College Get Poll Support. Democrats Worry It Won’t Last. - The New York Times

The Singular Appeal of a Government Focus on Infrastructure

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/aamweb/2019_Slide_Deck_-_Infrastructure_and_Buy_America_FINAL.pdf

Having said that, donor shills in the mold of Joe Lieberman will be powerful opponents, and they may quash some Bernie's priorities, but there's no way they'll be able to thwart all of them, and even where they succeed, I suspect a compromise will be involved in most cases rather than an outright blockade.

* It’s not just push polls that reflect the majority of Americans not interested in Medicare for all.
“ According to a July 22 poll from the PBS NewsHour, NPR and Marist, 70 percent of U.S. adults said they supported Medicare for All proposals as long as they maintain an option to keep private health insurance. A system like this has been proposed by Pete Buttigieg. By comparison, when asked in a separate question, only 41 percent of survey respondents said they wanted to scrap private health insurance for a government-run plan.”
Americans need more convincing on Medicare for All, poll says | PBS NewsHour

Again, it's really a question of ensuring provider continuity:

https://morningconsult.com/2019/07/...ng-private-plans-if-preferred-providers-stay/

Few people legitimately love their insurance company; it's really more fear concerning interruption/disruption of service.
 
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But the majority of Americans are aligned with him on these ideas. The obstacle is not popularity so much as opposing representatives that care more about who's issuing their campaign finance cheques, and lavishing them with lobbyist rimjobs than the whims of their constituents:

Majority of voters support free college, eliminating student debt | TheHill (yes, there are some outlier polls like the ever biased Ramussen and one Quinnipiac poll I'm aware of that show narrow majority opposition)

Wealth Tax and Free College Get Poll Support. Democrats Worry It Won’t Last. - The New York Times

The Singular Appeal of a Government Focus on Infrastructure

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/aamweb/2019_Slide_Deck_-_Infrastructure_and_Buy_America_FINAL.pdf

Having said that, donor shills in the mold of Joe Lieberman will be powerful opponents, and they may quash some Bernie's priorities, but there's no way they'll be able to thwart all of them, and even where they succeed, I suspect a compromise will be involved in most cases rather than an outright blockade.



Again, it's really a question of ensuring provider continuity:

Majority Backs ‘Medicare for All’ Replacing Private Plans, if Preferred Providers Stay

Few people legitimately love their insurance company; it's really more fear concerning interruption/disruption of service.
Each of your pie in the sky citations speaks to how popular the ideas are, but don’t address the ginormous hurdles that would have to be overcome for any of them to become reality.

Many powerful lobbies essentially run a lot of what happens in D.C.. To think for even a moment that any of the ideas you’ve addressed will get done any time in the near future is very naive. America is like a great big ship. It takes a lot of room and time to change course.

* FYI, I’m not sure how you come to your opinion of Americans satisfaction with their current medical insurance, but factually there a lot of us who are very happy with our current medical insurance. My wife manages with serious medical issues that require very expensive treatment (close to $20k per month) that we pay nearly $0 out of pocket for, and she gets her choice of doctor.

I remember when Obama said that ACA would allow people to pick their own doctors. It didn’t turn out that way at all for many, and not only did their insurance rates not drop, they increased. I have a friend who’s insurance just for him and his wife went up almost 30% over the first couple of years. So excuse me if I’m not at willing to believe that Sanders will do healthcare any better.
 
Each of your pie in the sky citations speaks to how popular the ideas are, but don’t address the ginormous hurdles that would have to be overcome for any of them to become reality.

Many powerful lobbies essentially run a lot of what happens in D.C.. To think for even a moment that any of the ideas you’ve addressed will get done any time in the near future is very naive. America is like a great big ship. It takes a lot of room and time to change course.

* FYI, I’m not sure how you come to your opinion of Americans satisfaction with their current medical insurance, but factually there a lot of us who are very happy with our current medical insurance. My wife manages with serious medical issues that require very expensive treatment (close to $20k per month) that we pay nearly $0 out of pocket for, and she gets her choice of doctor.

I remember when Obama said that ACA would allow people to pick their own doctors. It didn’t turn out that way at all for many, and not only did their insurance rates not drop, they increased. I have a friend who’s insurance just for him and his wife went up almost 30% over the first couple of years. So excuse me if I’m not at willing to believe that Sanders will do healthcare any better.

Well, yes, there are large hurdles and they're indeed largely a consequence of special interest groups who would be financially hurt by Bernie's proposals.

Having said that, FDR achieved similarly difficult things, and made excellent use of the bully pulpit to get legislation pushed through, and inflict political costs on those who opposed him (yes, he also had the Great Depression to work from, but we have historic issues with income inequality, while health care rates as a prime issue). As I said, I don't think Bernie will get all, or even close to all of the things on his agenda done, but achieving at least one or two transformative programs done is certainly within the realm of possibility, even if it will be difficult with opposing politicos fighting tooth and nail to keep their sponsors happy and in the money.

Regarding medical insurance, the point is that people generally don't care how their healthcare is provided so long as they get the healthcare they need; satisfaction or not, there is no especial attachment to a multipayer system with for profit insurers. Meanwhile, health care consistently polls as the top concern of voters, while majorities report that the existing health system has major issues: New Poll Shows Health Care Is Voter's Top Concern | RealClear Opinion Research | RealClearPolitics

As to ACA, it's not remotely comparable to an SP rollout, so I wouldn't say the outcomes of ACA are at all translatable to those of SP, and to be fair, statistically and on the whole, ACA has had positive material impacts in terms of constraining cost increases and improving coverage (though it is by itself woefully inadequate as a fix): Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia
 
Having said that, FDR achieved similarly ..... money.
There can be no reasonable comparison between 1933 and 2019/20 America as relates to potential for major, transformational legislation.

In 1933, America was suffering it’s worst economic crisis ever. One quarter of all American adults were unemployed, having no ability to provide for their families. They were absolutely desperate, pleading for any lifeline from the federal government and FDR offered that.

Regarding medical insurance, the point is that people generally don't care how their healthcare is provided so long as they get the healthcare they need; satisfaction or not, there is no especial attachment to a multipayer system with for profit insurers. Meanwhile, health care consistently polls as the top concern of voters, while majorities report that the existing health system has major issues: New Poll Shows Health Care Is Voter's Top Concern | RealClear Opinion Research | RealClearPolitics
It’s already established that healthcare consistently polls as a top concern for Americans, and while most aren’t 100% satisfied with their current health/medical insurance plan, they aren’t interested or willing to give it up for a government run single payer program.

“ solid majorities of Americans rate the coverage (69%) and quality (80%) of the healthcare they personally receive as "excellent" or "good."
Most Americans Still Rate Their Healthcare Quite Positively

“When Americans are asked whether they support a “Medicare for all” system that would replace all current insurance with a generous government program, a majority often say yes. But when they’re asked follow-up questions, they often reveal that they’re not familiar with the details of that plan — or that they would also be happy with other Democratic policy proposals.”

“Most Americans want everyone to have coverage, but some people are willing to sacrifice more to get there than others,” Mr. Blumenthal said. “The people who are willing to sacrifice more are the people who have less to lose.”
How Americans Split on Health Care: It’s a 3-Way Tie - The New York Times

“ The advocates of Medicare-for-all have a ready retort: Other countries seem to have managed all right, so it must be possible here. But most of those countries’ systems started a long time ago, when health care was a much smaller share of the economy and fewer people had robust, comprehensive private medical insurance.
For example, when Britain’s National Health Service was established in 1948, health-care spending was less than 2 percent of gross domestic product, and many people simply couldn’t afford to see a doctor. That meant that the tax bill for universal coverage was relatively modest. But perhaps more important, for both doctors and patients, the program offered an almost pure gain. Doctors could keep seeing private patients who wanted to pay extra for faster personal service. But they could also collect a salary from the NHS for seeing patients who previously couldn’t have afforded them. It was win-win.
For the United States to do the same thing, the cost would at a minimum increase the federal budget by more than half again. And that would be political child’s play compared with the task of telling more than 100 million Americans that their current insurance is being canceled.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ricans-like-their-health-insurance-way-it-is/

As to ACA, it's not remotely comparable to an SP rollout, so I wouldn't say the outcomes of ACA are at all translatable to those of SP, and to be fair, statistically and on the whole, ACA has had positive material impacts in terms of constraining cost increases and improving coverage (though it is by itself woefully inadequate as a fix): Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia
I wasn’t comparing the two plans against each other, I was commenting on our government’s failure to keep it’s promises with ACA.

There is no reason to believe that the much more dramatic shift of all Americans to a single payer government run program would turn out better. In fact, considering that the “Medicare for all” plan would be a far, far more complicated transition, with many competing opposing views/motives, it is virtually certain that Americans would not end up with the plan promised.

* Note - It was necessary to truncate part of your post in order to fit my response.
 
Out of curiosity, what do you have against Biden's policy? He stated deportations were going to be limited to felons, would you prefer he kept felons here?

We need more felons here. The rich are getting too rich, and we need felons to steal their money. To make things more equal again.
 
There can be no reasonable comparison between 1933 and 2019/20 America as relates to potential for major, transformational legislation.

In 1933, America was suffering it’s worst economic crisis ever. One quarter of all American adults were unemployed, having no ability to provide for their families. They were absolutely desperate, pleading for any lifeline from the federal government and FDR offered that.

Sure, I don't think it's quite the same, and I pointed that out by specifically mentioning the caveat of the GD.

However, there are other crisis' facing the country at this moment, and I do believe there exists enough public support and motive to enact key and transformative change on something like health care; the drive behind such things is strong. Bernie won't be able to enact absolutely sweeping change as FDR did, but leveraging similar avenues to accomplish some key pillar policy that has broadbased and strong support? Totally within the realm of reason.


It’s already established that healthcare consistently polls as a top concern for Americans, and while most aren’t 100% satisfied with their current health/medical insurance plan, they aren’t interested or willing to give it up for a government run single payer program.

“ solid majorities of Americans rate the coverage (69%) and quality (80%) of the healthcare they personally receive as "excellent" or "good."
Most Americans Still Rate Their Healthcare Quite Positively

“When Americans are asked whether they support a “Medicare for all” system that would replace all current insurance with..

Again, per the polling I linked, the relevant question is not about who pays for care, but about the continuity and quality of care, and access to providers: it is very notable that when continuity of providers is assured, any support MFA loses per the mention of diminishing the role of private insurers is more than recouped, and by significant margins. Satisfaction with those that have insurers may be majoritarian, but so are concerns and worries about cost and accessibility, both now and into the future, nevermind among those who are uninsured entirely. The crux of the matter is that the current healthcare system has serious, obvious and glaring problems, particularly in terms of coverage and cost, and that MFA as a solution has consistent and recurring majority support; support that not only endures but burgeons when concerns about transition and continuity are addressed.

As to the WP article, yes, indeed, other countries reaped the dividends of their wisdom in transitioning early and for them the move was much less painful and difficult, but it makes little sense to persist with an obviously inferior and flawed system which not only features vastly inferior value for money, but will only further calcify itself if left in place, and increase the difficulty of any future move away from it; this is very much akin to the sunken cost fallacy. While I agree the transition will not be easy, it is ultimately for the best.


I wasn’t comparing the two plans against each other, I was commenting on our government’s failure to keep it’s promises with ACA.

There is no reason to believe that the much more dramatic shift of all Americans to a single payer government run program would turn out better. In fact, considering that the “Medicare for all” plan would be a far, far more complicated transition, with many competing opposing views/motives, it is virtually certain that Americans would not end up with the plan promised.

Though I agree it would be foolhardy to expect that every promise could be kept and some level of legislative mutation/deviation would happen with respect to MFA, the fact of the matter is that ACA achieved excellent results overall, even despite being partially sabotaged by Republican efforts. Given that we have all the precedent in the world for MFA to be a success (especially as compared to our present healthcare system), and that prior efforts at health care reform have actually done well in their totality, I see no reason to believe the ultimate consequence of MFA would not be a positive one, despite the likelihood of certain deviations and compromises.
 
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