Biden issues an executive order restricting US investments in Chinese technology

[Credence]

Updated 12:48 AM EDT, August 10, 2023

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden signed an executive order Wednesday to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China — a move the administration said was targeted but it also reflected an intensifying competition between the world’s two biggest powers.

The order covers advanced computer chips, micro electronics, quantum information technologies and artificial intelligence. Senior administration officials said that the effort stemmed from national security goals rather than economic interests, and that the categories it covered were intentionally narrow in scope. The order seeks to blunt China’s ability to use U.S. investments in its technology companies to upgrade its military while also preserving broader levels of trade that are vital for both nations’ economies.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce responded in a statement early Thursday that it has “serious concern” about the order and “reserves the right to take measures.”

More:

Biden issues an executive order restricting US investments in Chinese technology

President Joe Biden has signed an executive order to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China.

apnews.com

 

[The Stars Tremble]

Well OK, but the time for this was 20 years ago. China has its domestic market and most of the markets of the world. They don't really need US investment any more.

 

[samiam5211]

Well OK, but the time for this was 20 years ago. China has its domestic market and most of the markets of the world. They don't really need US investment any more.

China is in big trouble. They can't survive without western investment.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

China is in big trouble. They can't survive without western investment.

China is a socialized economy. They can divert money from steel or automobile exports, to developing semiconductors.

 

[samiam5211]

China is a socialized economy. They can divert money from steel or automobile exports, to developing semiconductors.

You make it sound so simple.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Updated 12:48 AM EDT, August 10, 2023

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden signed an executive order Wednesday to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China — a move the administration said was targeted but it also reflected an intensifying competition between the world’s two biggest powers.

The order covers advanced computer chips, micro electronics, quantum information technologies and artificial intelligence. Senior administration officials said that the effort stemmed from national security goals rather than economic interests, and that the categories it covered were intentionally narrow in scope. The order seeks to blunt China’s ability to use U.S. investments in its technology companies to upgrade its military while also preserving broader levels of trade that are vital for both nations’ economies.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce responded in a statement early Thursday that it has “serious concern” about the order and “reserves the right to take measures.”

More:

Biden issues an executive order restricting US investments in Chinese technology

President Joe Biden has signed an executive order to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China.

apnews.com

Hmm… how, exactly, does one regulate something which has been blocked? Since money is fungible and (all?) Chinese companies are government owned/controlled, it’s fairly easy for funds invested in Chinese company A to be transferred to Chinese company B without notifying the Biden administration (or the investors).

 

[dmpi]

This is misguided at best. First off China has plenty of money themselves and they don't need foreign investments. US companies would invest in China more as to establish a two-way partnership where they can help each other. Biden is just like school boy bully telling you who you can be friends with and who you can't. This pettiness is slowing world-wide economic progress which we desperately need if we want to solve problems like climate change or energy.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

You make it sound so simple.

Nothing about China is simple. They have their own processors, you know. They're patent compliant, so they're not competitive with Intel or AMD. But they could simply copy them, if US and European markets no longer mattered.

The Chinese domestic market is big. Not as big as the US market (where most people can afford a computer) but still significant. How well do you think the genuine US product will fare in developing markets, if is branded "genuine Intel" but it's the same thing at twice the price?

The US is no longer a net exporter of goods. Even maybe goods and services, though that is harder to measure. US corporations make most of their money from the US market. China has developed to the point that it can now make goods only for the Chinese market and still grow industries that way.

A complete ban on US investment in China would certainly hurt them. Bans on high tech investment, really not so much. And it's a golden opportunity for Japanese, Korean and European investors too.

 

[samiam5211]

Nothing about China is simple. They have their own processors, you know. They're patent compliant, so they're not competitive with Intel or AMD. But they could simply copy them, if US and European markets no longer mattered.

The Chinese domestic market is big. Not as big as the US market (where most people can afford a computer) but still significant. How well do you think the genuine US product will fare in developing markets, if is branded "genuine Intel" but it's the same thing at twice the price?

The US is no longer a net exporter of goods. Even maybe goods and services, though that is harder to measure. US corporations make most of their money from the US market. China has developed to the point that it can now make goods only for the Chinese market and still grow industries that way.

A complete ban on US investment in China would certainly hurt them. Bans on high tech investment, really not so much. And it's a golden opportunity for Japanese, Korean and European investors too.

I guess time will tell.

I"m fine checking back in 5 years.

 

[ttwtt78640]

This is misguided at best. First off China has plenty of money themselves and they don't need foreign investments. US companies would invest in China more as to establish a two-way partnership where they can help each other. Biden is just like school boy bully telling you who you can be friends with and who you can't. This pettiness is slowing world-wide economic progress which we desperately need if we want to solve problems like climate change or energy.

It’s likely an attempt to try to prevent congress from taking action on the matter which goes beyond what Biden wants done.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

This is misguided at best. First off China has plenty of money themselves and they don't need foreign investments. US companies would invest in China more as to establish a two-way partnership where they can help each other. Biden is just like school boy bully telling you who you can be friends with and who you can't. This pettiness is slowing world-wide economic progress which we desperately need if we want to solve problems like climate change or energy.

China are huge climate change offenders, but they're also the nation which has made the greatest investment in renewables. Everything is bigger in China!

 

[washunut]

China is in big trouble. They can't survive without western investment.

Please explain. Perhaps they can't survive without exports to the west. Totally different.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

I guess time will tell.

I"m fine checking back in 5 years.

Well that's complacency. China has avoided the defense spending trap which ruined the Soviet Union. They're still over-producing steel, suppressing prices for the commodity they have a lock on. They've also tried to corner the market in rare earths (used for the magnets which make electric cars work) and like when OPEC tried to corner the market in oil, this has led to development of the resource elsewhere, like the US, Australia and Brazil.

It would be wrong to think China strikes the perfect balance between private enterprise and government control. Their economy is still sub-optimal due to government priorities. But they are better at business than the Soviet Union ever was, and better at business than the United States currently is. They do invest off-shore, but they do it with national interest put first. The United States invests off-shore, with corporate interest put first.

The United States is no longer a trading nation. They are an investing nation. Perhaps the democratic process can redress the consequences of this (corporations sending wages overseas, then extracting product prices from Americans, gap between rich and poor widens.) A return to protectionism could work. But what will not work is picking the most "strategic" or lucrative industries, and banning US investment in China, just in those industries. Others will invest instead. And US corporations will invest in other low-wage nations, instead of China.

So what about intellectual property? Doesn't it make sense to deny China intellectual property they might "steal"? Yes, in that they won't have any legal claim to it. But No, if they no longer have anything to lose, they can steal the IP and sell products in blatant violation of US law. Americans who happily buy new goods half price from a car boot sale, have no moral authority to act on counterfeiting.

 

[washunut]

Updated 12:48 AM EDT, August 10, 2023

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden signed an executive order Wednesday to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China — a move the administration said was targeted but it also reflected an intensifying competition between the world’s two biggest powers.

The order covers advanced computer chips, micro electronics, quantum information technologies and artificial intelligence. Senior administration officials said that the effort stemmed from national security goals rather than economic interests, and that the categories it covered were intentionally narrow in scope. The order seeks to blunt China’s ability to use U.S. investments in its technology companies to upgrade its military while also preserving broader levels of trade that are vital for both nations’ economies.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce responded in a statement early Thursday that it has “serious concern” about the order and “reserves the right to take measures.”

More:

Biden issues an executive order restricting US investments in Chinese technology

President Joe Biden has signed an executive order to block and regulate high-tech U.S.-based investments going toward China.

apnews.com

Does anyone know what this really mean? Does Apple have to pull out of China, how about Boeing. If people feel this is real, chip company stocks will be crushed as many of their sales are to China.

 

[Credence]

Does anyone know what this really mean? Does Apple have to pull out of China, how about Boeing. If people feel this is real, chip company stocks will be crushed as many of their sales are to China.

The order covers advanced computer chips, micro electronics, quantum information technologies and artificial intelligence.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

Please explain. Perhaps they can't survive without exports to the west. Totally different.

Not even that. Developing nations buy good too, and they will buy from whoever offers the best price.

 

[Kushinator]

Well OK, but the time for this was 20 years ago. China has its domestic market and most of the markets of the world. They don't really need US investment any more.

Oh they need technology from the U.S. because China is certainly not a beacon of innovation. Without U.S. and E.U. tech, China will have a tough time maintaining their comparative advantage in low-end manufacturing.

It's already becoming reality. What was once made in China can now be produced in Bangladesh, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc... for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Kushinator]

Does anyone know what this really mean? Does Apple have to pull out of China, how about Boeing. If people feel this is real, chip company stocks will be crushed as many of their sales are to China.

It means we can't develop specific tech in order to boost U.S. specific manufacturing in China.

Basically, if you want to build a modern manufacturing facility that integrates AI, you'll have to use technology that comes from China... which is many steps below what is available in the U.S..

 

[Kushinator]

China is in big trouble. They can't survive without western investment.

China is sitting on something like $3+ trillion in foreign currency reserves. They don't need our money... they need our tech.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

The order covers advanced computer chips, micro electronics, quantum information technologies and artificial intelligence.

If it was remotely possible to deny China artificial intelligence, I would consider that worth banning. In the West, we could perhaps identify stock traders and advertisers who were using artificial intelligence, and sanction them. But if it gets loose in China, their government will commandeer it leading to a huge boost in national productivity and warfighting ability.

The five year ban on artificial intelligence is the height of stupidity. Our democratically elected governments should be funding it instead. They should be answerable to us for the consequences if they get it wrong, or even if they fail to keep up with the private sector.

AI can't simply be banned. That's just making a better AI that can't be detected. We need AI cops to track down AI criminals.

 

[Kushinator]

If it was remotely possible to deny China artificial intelligence, I would consider that worth banning.

China is an innovation desert. The only way a worthwhile AI infrastructure will develop there in the next 10 years is if U.S. and E.U. companies bring it there.

And with all due respect... i'm being polite here when i include the E.U. (mostly because of ASML Holdings).

Our democratically elected governments should be funding it instead.

The private sector is developing it much more efficiently than government could ever dream.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

China is sitting on something like $3+ trillion in foreign currency reserves. They don't need our money... they need our tech.

All their tech is under government protection. Ours is spread all around private enterprises.

If they want out tech, all they have to do is steal it. Hell, the impoverished North Koreans stole tech from Russia, yesterday.

The point of having US tech manufactured in China is moral authority. They can "steal" the tech by accident. Produce a few thousand gizmos extra, sell them without a brand name on them, and then it's "public domain." I know it sounds silly, but insert a chain of producers and traders and marketers, and it stands up to international law.

And even if the Chinese played entirely by the law, they could still copy American products in the way that AMD copied Intel. Patents apply to methods, not performance of products. Even if Chinese high tech is limited by patents, it will someday be competitive or superior, because of a captive market in China and government subsidies.

 

[Kushinator]

The point of having US tech manufactured in China is moral authority.

I don't think you are understanding what's being discussed, or what this executive order entails. I've tried to simplify it.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

China is an innovation desert. The only way a worthwhile AI infrastructure will develop there in the next 10 years is if U.S. and E.U. companies bring it there.

China is second in the world (after the US) for peer-reviewed scientific papers. Technology comes from science.

And with all due respect... i'm being polite here when i include the E.U. (mostly because of ASML Holdings).

The private sector is developing it much more efficiently than government could ever dream.

Stupid cold war thinking. Like it must be all private sector, or all government. THE US does not apply that principle, to science or to technology. The government is involved.

And government should be more involved, if you don't want your ass kicked by China.

 

[Kushinator]

China is second in the world (after the US) for peer-reviewed scientific papers. Technology comes from science.

China is an innovation desert.

Stupid cold war thinking. Like it must be all private sector, or all government. THE US does not apply that principle, to science or to technology. The government is involved.

And government should be more involved, if you don't want your ass kicked by China.

Yeah... you don't know what you're talking about and instead are invested in repeating half-truths and utter nonsense.