Biden is not serious about getting the debt under control

[bave]

I undertaand, but you are living in the old industrial 1800s with those concepts of what "full-time" is, and many companies do not follow that mentality.

No, I'm not. A full time job has a specific description for a variety of reasons.

Good point. But competition exists, and it may just come down to how much we value education, etc.....

The problem is there is no competition in public education. I think we would both agree that more motivated teachers tend to land in private schools more often than not for far less compensation and far more hours.

That measure is VERY narrow. Why not just have androids go to school to suck up info ??? There is a reason what most college PHDs can't teach secondary students well.......

Those androids are whooping our asses in basic sciences and math, vital things. I am not interested in racial and gender studies. I want kids to be good at math, science, and communicate effectively so they can be employed.

Well----we differ here. Your stance is way too narrow. It must leave room for governing. But yes, I would like to see a different statewide system (state police style)

I am not sure how you are defining governing in this situation. The teachers unions are far more of an interference to governance of public schools than anything else out there. Western states with weak education unions don't have a problem governing their school systems, they just don't spend what NY does.

We will disagree on the "part-time" thing. Many of the other things you seem mad about sound like a case of "if I don't have it, then you shouldn't either-------neener, neener"...............................Not sure what study out there shows that "results" would improve with any of the things you mention. We get top students and poor students in the same class with the same teacher, spending the same hours at the job. So how is it the teacher's fault?? Sounds like something else, and perhaps THAT might be focused on. "You can't chicken soup out of chicken doo-doo"

Look, we can disagree about a lot of things, part time isn't one of them. A public school teacher around here is 186 days a year, 10 days of sick/vacation time, with 5 active 45 minute periods per day and 1 prep period. That is 3 hours of actual instruction time per day and you can certainly get your grading/prep done in the remaining prep period. That's less than a four hour work day. I will be generous and round it to 5 hours assuming it is a miraculous teacher who tutors for an hour a day. That is less than 900 hours a year before vacation time etc. By every legal and tax definition that is a part time job. Yes, a contract can deem you full time, by their own definition but that is more about tenure and benefits than the actual definition.

My issue with benefits is that it is totally disconnected from reality. Find me a private employer that offers a pension plan. Find me a private employer that offers DROP plans, retiree healthcare programs, mandated raises for irrelevant education which is also paid for by the employer. Those things don't exist in the private sector. Moreover, they lead to major financial problems down the road. Again, I cite PSERs. These heavily unionized public employee states are going to get hit with waves of bankruptcies and failures for these pension and health plans. Even with a *soaring* stock market PSERs funding ratio is dropping like a stone. What do you think happens if the stock market goes flat/negative for three years? You get a handful of states who can't afford to send out pension checks. That's my problem. It is a corruption system. Politicians can't afford to bribe the unions with current budget years, so they give the unions future goodies they don't have to pay for. It happens over and over again.

 

[Luckyone]

One of the lw fairy tales is that the"yes the Dems want more spending,but they are going to pay for it by taxing the rich"
wronggggggggggggggggggg

More Biden Budget Analysis | National Review

The Tax Foundation predicts 165,000 fewer jobs and 1 percent lower GDP from Biden’s proposed taxing and spending.

www.nationalreview.com

"
Yesterday I noted some analysis of the president’s budget from the center-left Tax Policy Center. Now we have some from the right-leaning Tax Foundation.

By these estimates, if enacted, the budget — which includes the Biden family and infrastructure plans — would hike spending by $4 trillion over ten years while raising $1.3 trillion in revenue. These numbers shift to $5 trillion and $3 trillion if you count tax credits as spending and toss in a promised $700 billion from better tax enforcement. (The tax credits include Biden’s big payments to parents regardless of whether they work, and the report treats such “spending through the tax code” as a revenue-reducer rather than spending per se.)

America has a population of roughly 330 million, so every trillion dollars represents about $3,000 per person.

The Tax Foundation also estimates the broader economic effects of the tax and spending changes: about 165,000 fewer jobs and 1 percent lower GDP in the long run, for example."

Please don't bother responding that the GOP isn't serious about it either . I've already said that umpteen times.

Here is a reality that you (Klattu) has to accept and live with.

By the numbers: How do 100 days of Biden and Trump (and Obama) compare?​

Biden signed more executive orders than Trump did, but Trump played more golf. A lot more.

Another telling comparison is how the approval ratings through 100 days of all three presidents stack up. At around the 100-day mark, 53 percent of Americans said they approved of the job Biden was doing. At the same point, just 41 percent said the same of Trump. Obama, by contrast, saw 65 percent of Americans approve of the job he was doing 100 days in.

Electing Biden was more about getting rid of Trump and improving out country than about Biden being able to do all that much. It was all about getting rid of the "cancer" and simply improve the probabilities of surviving. Biden has been successful at doing that.

 

[lurchadams]

One of the lw fairy tales is that the"yes the Dems want more spending,but they are going to pay for it by taxing the rich"
wronggggggggggggggggggg

More Biden Budget Analysis | National Review

The Tax Foundation predicts 165,000 fewer jobs and 1 percent lower GDP from Biden’s proposed taxing and spending.

www.nationalreview.com

"
Yesterday I noted some analysis of the president’s budget from the center-left Tax Policy Center. Now we have some from the right-leaning Tax Foundation.

By these estimates, if enacted, the budget — which includes the Biden family and infrastructure plans — would hike spending by $4 trillion over ten years while raising $1.3 trillion in revenue. These numbers shift to $5 trillion and $3 trillion if you count tax credits as spending and toss in a promised $700 billion from better tax enforcement. (The tax credits include Biden’s big payments to parents regardless of whether they work, and the report treats such “spending through the tax code” as a revenue-reducer rather than spending per se.)

America has a population of roughly 330 million, so every trillion dollars represents about $3,000 per person.

The Tax Foundation also estimates the broader economic effects of the tax and spending changes: about 165,000 fewer jobs and 1 percent lower GDP in the long run, for example."

Please don't bother responding that the GOP isn't serious about it either . I've already said that umpteen times.

Did you put up one of these threads during the trump administration where tax rates were dropped with now way to pay for them? No? Then you are a hypocrite.

 

[bave]

Another telling comparison is how the approval ratings through 100 days of all three presidents stack up. At around the 100-day mark, 53 percent of Americans said they approved of the job Biden was doing. At the same point, just 41 percent said the same of Trump. Obama, by contrast, saw 65 percent of Americans approve of the job he was doing 100 days in.

So, giving away ~$2T is worth about 12 points in a favorability poll? Not bad, about $160,000,000,000 per point.

 

[bongsaway]

So, a retiree is an expert on everything of which they know nothing? Good to know.

Btw, who flexes about having a timeshare in Vero beach in their internet signature? lol.

It's not a timeshare wherever you got that from and you are also taking part of what my sig says out of context. You are obviously no expert on reading comprehension. Timeshare? Stick to your bean counting.

 

[bave]

It's not a timeshare wherever you got that from and you are also taking part of what my sig says out of context. You are obviously no expert on reading comprehension. Timeshare? Stick to your bean counting.

Generally, most people who own a second home don't do an every other week travel rotation.

 

[KLATTU]

Did you put up one of these threads during the trump administration where tax rates were dropped with now way to pay for them? No? Then you are a hypocrite.

There is no such thing as ‘paying for a tax cut’. And ive started plenty of threads on out of control spending,

 

[KLATTU]

Here is a reality that you (Klattu) has to accept and live with.

By the numbers: How do 100 days of Biden and Trump (and Obama) compare?​

Biden signed more executive orders than Trump did, but Trump played more golf. A lot more.

Another telling comparison is how the approval ratings through 100 days of all three presidents stack up. At around the 100-day mark, 53 percent of Americans said they approved of the job Biden was doing. At the same point, just 41 percent said the same of Trump. Obama, by contrast, saw 65 percent of Americans approve of the job he was doing 100 days in.

Electing Biden was more about getting rid of Trump and improving out country than about Biden being able to do all that much. It was all about getting rid of the "cancer" and simply improve the probabilities of surviving. Biden has been successful at doing that.

Fascinating! But has nothing to do with my op

 

[Luckyone]

So, giving away ~$2T is worth about 12 points in a favorability poll? Not bad, about $160,000,000,000 per point.

Fascinating! But has nothing to do with my op

No, it doesn't. Nonetheless, you have "established" yourself as a Trump supporter and you are being a hypocrite about Biden because you are criticizing him in spite of him doing better than Trump at doing the same presidential things.

 

[KLATTU]

No, it doesn't. Nonetheless, you have "established" yourself as a Trump supporter and you are being a hypocrite about Biden because you are criticizing him in spite of him doing better than Trump at doing the same presidential things.

Bidens big achievement? See my sig line .laffriot

 

[lurchadams]

There is no such thing as ‘paying for a tax cut’. And ive started plenty of threads on out of control spending,

Then you are only concerned about one side of the equation which is so obviously unwise.

 

[Luckyone]

Bidens big achievement? See my sig line .laffriot

You did not answer my question.

Biden has done better than Trump but you never criticized Trump but you are criticizing Biden. That is being a hypocrite!

 

[weaver2]

The news? Do some actual reading on the programs and the analysis. Nothing I said r/e SBA PPP loans is even debated by any economist on left or right.

But among the restaurants, dentists and mom-and-pops was Vibra Healthcare, a chain of hospitals and therapy centers spread across 19 states with over 9,000 employees. The biggest PPP loan was supposed to be $10 million, but Vibra found a way to land as much as $97 million.

Different Names, Same Address: How Big Businesses Got Government Loans Meant for Small Businesses

ProPublica found at least 15 large companies that received over half a billion dollars in PPP loans using the same technique: Getting multiple loans sent to smaller entities they own.

www.propublica.org

Here are the largest public companies taking payroll loans meant for small businesses

Those that have received Paycheck Protection Program relief designed for small business include publicly traded firms with thousands of employees.

www.cnbc.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/01/ppp-sba-data/

First off, no one shuts down a profitable mill and show me something that said otherwise and I will happily read it. Second, a quick read of the mill in Old Town shows that the problems were largely related to competition against overseas imports combined with issues with the union. So much so that they couldn't find a new buyer for the mill. Let me explain something to you. If you have a profitable business, you will find a buyer at some price. An inability to find a buyer entirely tells you that the mill was not a viable going business concern.

When Georgia Pacific bought the Ft. James mill in 2000 it was making money. It produced Brawny paper towels, Northern Quilted TP, Dixie paper cups and plates and Vanity Fair paper napkins. These were at the time the top brand sellers in their field.
2001 GP has a debt load of $12.2B
2003 GP says the machines are too antiquated to produce efficiently and Maine is too far from the market to be profitable.(so buying this mill was a good idea?) Two machines are taken out of the mill and re-installed in the Plattesburgh, NY mill. All Brawny towels are sent from Plattsburg to Old Town for storage before transit to markets. GP lays off 360 workers. It says if the state will buy GP's land fill for $26M it will re install a machine and rehire workers. GP says it will use the $26M to buy a gas fired waste wood burner to produce power and cut electric expenses. They claim this will put the mill back on full time operation. GP asks the state to bring a gas line to the mill. The state does so at no cost to the mill.
2004 GP buys used burner for $1M.
2005 Burner is installed and tested one time then shut down. GP says it's not economical because the price of gas it too high $23M is unaccounted for.
2005 September and October G-P shuts down the tissue converting lines and announces layoffs for 65 more workers and shuts down two tissue converting lines.
November Koch Industries agrees to pay $13.2 billion for G-P but only if GP reduces it debt.
2006 G-P shuts down the Old Town mill and lays off 459 workers. It applies to the town for a $2.1 federal low interest loan to be used for regional development. The loan is granted GP states the money will not be used to develop anything locally but to pay off debts as asked by Koch. GP has removed all movable machines and equipment. It is not a working paper mill. They plan to tear it down. The Governor asks GP for a 60-day window to find a buyer. GP demands that any buyer is prohibited from making paper products for 5 years after purchase of the mill. Red Shield buys the building in November

Life after toilet paper | Tissue making is history at the former Georgia-Pacific mill in Old Town, but some see a brighter future in the new owner's manufacturing plans

Not many people know that the Georgia-Pacific mill in Old Town almost was torn down, bulldozed into oblivion and replaced with topsoil and grass seed. Although Atlanta-based G-P, which shut down the mill last year, denies that demolishing the structure was ever part of its closure plan, others...

www.mainebiz.biz

Citation? Property and local EIC taxes are generally paid either in advance or as accrued.

MILLINOCKET, Maine (NEWS CENTER) --- Tough financial times for Millinocket are now forcing leaders here to take drastic steps.
The town has now filed a roughly $2.2 million tax lien against GNP West Inc, which is the company working off of the old Millinocket paper mill site. Town officials argue the $2.2 million is owed to Millinocket for unpaid taxes on valuable equipment at the mill site.
The mill closed in 2008 . Millinocket town officials say they still have not collected $2 million in unpaid property taxes on the site.
The town has now filed a lien with the Maine Secretary of State's office as well as the Delaware Secretary of State's office on May 21, 2014.

Millinocket files lien for unpaid taxes on old mill equipment

Town claims company won't be able to sell equipment unless $2 mill. in taxes is paid off

www.newscentermaine.com

(continued)

 

[weaver2]

(continued)

False, this is in my area of expertise. PBGC and ERISA rules are not going to let this happen, period. Pension assets in private corporations are required to be segregated from other liabilities and meet annual threshold testing requirements. This is largely so exactly this can't happen. PBGC database shows no reference to a claim related to GP-Old Town, ME.

A 15-year-old bankruptcy case is finally paying out to workers .....
About 1,000 former Great Northern workers have begun receiving checks for “a small fraction” of the pensions, vacation and severance pay that they, in many cases, spent decades earning at the company’s East Millinocket and Millinocket paper mills, bankruptcy court trustee Gary M. Growe said.
Great Northern collapsed.....filing for bankruptcy protection on Jan. 9, 2003.

“Of course, it is good to get a little money, but it is nothing compared to what we have lost,” Manzo said Friday. “I thought there were supposed to be laws to protect us.”
“It is just a total ripoff. We spent years of our lives there. I was there about 30 years, and I was one of the younger ones, so you can imagine how it was for those who were older,” said Manzo, who is 56 and attending the University of Maine in Augusta to become a teacher. “We did a lot for this town, all of these workers. We have been here since the town was here.”

Workers from dead Maine paper mills call bankruptcy payouts ‘a total ripoff’

“Of course, it is good to get a little money, but it is nothing compared to what we have lost."

bangordailynews.com

I can't comment on the skill set, highly skilled is a stretch, that's a pretty tough definition to meet for blue collar labor.

Then look it up before you make a judgement that they are not highly skilled.

The claims of loyalty, from both sides, only extends as far as economic benefit to both parties. Unions will always be loyal when they are getting a good deal, corporations as well. The loyalty fails when either side no longer feels that is the case, which is what happened in Old Town. GP obviously felt that the union combined with overseas competition made the plant in Old Town no longer viable. I would not expect any business to maintain a non-viable entity.This is largely my expertise.

The union in Old Town always had good relations with the mill owners and they worked diligently with GP to keep the mill open. Workers agreed to pay cuts and merging two jobs into one. The problem was GP wanted to make money but not by making paper.

 

[KLATTU]

You

Biden has done better than Trump

Not on debt and deficit.( the op )
There has been no improvement nor will there ever be
The tax hikes won't bring in the projected revenue, but the spending will DEFINITELY be more.

 

[KLATTU]

Then you are only concerned about one side of the equation which is so obviously unwise.

There is no such think as 'paying for a tax cut"
That's a lw cliche, not based in reality.

 

[bave]

But among the restaurants, dentists and mom-and-pops was Vibra Healthcare, a chain of hospitals and therapy centers spread across 19 states with over 9,000 employees. The biggest PPP loan was supposed to be $10 million, but Vibra found a way to land as much as $97 million.

The rules, appropriately, define locations as separate businesses in may cases (ie: franchises). According to that link, they have 219 employees, so the rest are franchises/subsidiaries etc. Either way the net result is the same, you are trying to keep people employed, not small business employees employed, but people in general.

When Georgia Pacific bought the Ft. James mill in 2000 it was making money. It produced Brawny paper towels, Northern Quilted TP, Dixie paper cups and plates and Vanity Fair paper napkins. These were at the time the top brand sellers in their field.
2001 GP has a debt load of $12.2B
2003 GP says the machines are too antiquated to produce efficiently and Maine is too far from the market to be profitable.(so buying this mill was a good idea?) Two machines are taken out of the mill and re-installed in the Plattesburgh, NY mill. All Brawny towels are sent from Plattsburg to Old Town for storage before transit to markets. GP lays off 360 workers. It says if the state will buy GP's land fill for $26M it will re install a machine and rehire workers. GP says it will use the $26M to buy a gas fired waste wood burner to produce power and cut electric expenses. They claim this will put the mill back on full time operation. GP asks the state to bring a gas line to the mill. The state does so at no cost to the mill.
2004 GP buys used burner for $1M.
2005 Burner is installed and tested one time then shut down. GP says it's not economical because the price of gas it too high $23M is unaccounted for.

Not sure where you think the conspiracy in the above is. Municipalities often run gas lines to customers in the area for no charge, especially high consumption locations. It didn't work out because at the same time NG prices were shooting through the roof.

2005 September and October G-P shuts down the tissue converting lines and announces layoffs for 65 more workers and shuts down two tissue converting lines.
November Koch Industries agrees to pay $13.2 billion for G-P but only if GP reduces it debt.
2006 G-P shuts down the Old Town mill and lays off 459 workers. It applies to the town for a $2.1 federal low interest loan to be used for regional development. The loan is granted GP states the money will not be used to develop anything locally but to pay off debts as asked by Koch. GP has removed all movable machines and equipment. It is not a working paper mill. They plan to tear it down. The Governor asks GP for a 60-day window to find a buyer. GP demands that any buyer is prohibited from making paper products for 5 years after purchase of the mill. Red Shield buys the building in November

If there was a conditional loan, which they usually are, they can enforce it. The owner of a property has the right to put conditions on the use of the sale of the property. Again, I'm not sure where the villainy is yet.

MILLINOCKET, Maine (NEWS CENTER) --- Tough financial times for Millinocket are now forcing leaders here to take drastic steps.
The town has now filed a roughly $2.2 million tax lien against GNP West Inc, which is the company working off of the old Millinocket paper mill site. Town officials argue the $2.2 million is owed to Millinocket for unpaid taxes on valuable equipment at the mill site.
The mill closed in 2008 . Millinocket town officials say they still have not collected $2 million in unpaid property taxes on the site.
(continued)

I don't know Maine's rules, but it sounds like we are talking about tangible property and not real property. It sounds more like a dispute, something rather common, and there will eventually be an agreement.

 

[phoenix2020]

Here is a reality that you (Klattu) has to accept and live with.

By the numbers: How do 100 days of Biden and Trump (and Obama) compare?​

Biden signed more executive orders than Trump did, but Trump played more golf. A lot more.

Missing from the article and worth noting is that Biden also had to confirm his entire cabinet from scratch. Congress gave both Obama and Trump the luxury of having at least a partially staffed cabinet by Inauguration Day. Unfortunately Mitch McConnell decided to do what Mitch McConnell does and blocked any confirmations because why not put the interests of one's party over little nothings like national security and pandemic response? Ah Mitch... what a quality human being.

 

[bave]

(continued)

A 15-year-old bankruptcy case is finally paying out to workers .....
About 1,000 former Great Northern workers have begun receiving checks for “a small fraction” of the pensions, vacation and severance pay that they, in many cases, spent decades earning at the company’s East Millinocket and Millinocket paper mills, bankruptcy court trustee Gary M. Growe said.
Great Northern collapsed.....filing for bankruptcy protection on Jan. 9, 2003.

First off, it looks like Georgia Pacific only owned the company for a year in the 90's, it was otherwise constantly changing hands. Second, I don't see anything PBGC claims or failure to meet pension funding. It sounds like the plan was frozen and distributed.

Then look it up before you make a judgement that they are not highly skilled.

Ok, I was being nice, it isn't highly skilled, under any definition. My apologies for being unclear.

The union in Old Town always had good relations with the mill owners and they worked diligently with GP to keep the mill open. Workers agreed to pay cuts and merging two jobs into one. The problem was GP wanted to make money but not by making paper.

A corporation placed making a profit over making a product, no shit you say?

It looks more like the fact is the plant needed a lot of investment, the geography wasn't favorable, and was a union shop. No business is going to invest a ton of money there.

 

[lurchadams]

There is no such think as 'paying for a tax cut"
That's a lw cliche, not based in reality.

Mmm... hmmm.. that's the rw way of thinking alright. When you're ready, I'll teach you how to read a financial statement, where you'll find out that when you remove revenues from an equation with expenses remaining equal or increasing, that will leave what's called, "A deficit".

Your should write the above down.

 

[KLATTU]

Mmm... hmmm.. that's the rw way of thinking alright. When you're ready, I'll teach you how to read a financial statement, where you'll find out that when you remove revenues from an equation with expenses remaining equal or increasing, that will leave what's called, "A deficit".

Your should write the above down.

Right .There is no such thing as 'paying for a tax cut'. There''s just less revenue coming in. Paying is money going out.Words matter.

 

[ClaraD]

True, but 70% of Gov spending is now entitlements

yeah, Social Security and Medicare...want to cut them out?

 

[bave]

yeah, Social Security and Medicare...want to cut them out?

You realize they are going to cut no matter what, right? There is no way you will have enough money available to keep those promises.

 

[ClaraD]

You realize they are going to cut no matter what, right? There is no way you will have enough money available to keep those promises.

I am talking them totally eliminating it..no, I am not for it...but I wonder how suicidal they are.

 

[bave]

I am talking them totally eliminating it..no, I am not for it...but I wonder how suicidal they are.

What do you think should be done with entitlements?