Biden adds hurdles to federal grants for charter schools, keeps promise to teachers unions

[NolanVoyd]

I don't know if Charter Schools are always the answer, or even if at all, but the public school system in this country is by and large a failure. We spend more than any other nation for inferior results.

International study: American teacher salaries lag behind other nations, pay a factor in attracting top people to field​

International study: American teacher salaries lag behind other nations, pay a factor in attracting top people to field

Spain, New Zealand and Germany were at the top in the teacher compensation study, while Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Iceland and the Czech Republic were below the United States.

www.mlive.com

And by the way, public schools are more successful than Charter schools.

 

[justabubba]

I think you need to go back and reread the conversation. You seem to be confused.
Carjosse and I were talking about ways to improve the quality of education at public schools. One of his main points was that we needed to pay teachers more.

I stated that teachers getting payed more has no direct correlation to better results at public schools as shown by several states that have some of the highest paid teachers yet have poor schools and others that have lower teacher pay and better results.

Noting I said had anything to do with claiming we should tie teacher pay to results.

^ [emphasis added by bubba]
but you did
you insisted that was the teachers union's position
as will again be shown below

In fact I was pointing out the fact that just because teachers get paid more doesn’t mean you get better results. That whole bit is just a straw man you are making up. Nothing more.

So yeah I don’t need to show you anything as it’s not my claim.

Maybe follow along with the conversation next time.

i have followed the conversation
and previously offered your post, which i now do again [the added emphasis is mine]:

I agree that it is an issue.
That said when you actually look at the numbers it doesn’t appear that teachers salary is tied that closely to students success.
Though I have no doubt the teachers union wants people to think it is.

^ here is your attempt to malign the teachers union
i previously offered a scenario showing disparate compositions of two classrooms and asked which would be more likely to show academic gains
yet you seek to wrongly pretend the union would ignore such reality in order to assert teacher pay is correlated to student academic attainment

 

[Doug64]

No it is a story in a right wing site intended to gin up right wing outrage about a non-issue.

You keep right on telling yourself that, as states continue to ban teaching the racist precepts of CRT in K-12 schools, parents continue chucking out school board members supporting teaching it, and states continue to pass legislation requiring transparency in what is taught in schools.

Charter schools here in Florida are a racket to make money from taxpayer dollars. They do not provide better schooling either. Like most Republican "ideas" they arev thinly disguised scams to bilk taxpayers.

Even assuming that everything in your link about Charter Schools USA can be taken at face value, do you think that is representative of all charter schools in Florida, much less the rest of the US?

 

[braindrain]

^ [emphasis added by bubba]
but you did
you insisted that was the teachers union's position
as will again be shown below

i have followed the conversation
and previously offered your post, which i now do again [the added emphasis is mine]:

^ here is your attempt to malign the teachers union
i previously offered a scenario showing disparate compositions of two classrooms and asked which would be more likely to show academic gains
yet you seek to wrongly pretend the union would ignore such reality in order to assert teacher pay is correlated to student academic attainment

No I didn’t and you are either simply not following the conversation or just seeing what you want to see. I don’t know where you are getting this from but it is simply not there.
Let me break it down for you.

If two people are discussing how to improve schools and one says we need to pay teachers more and the other points out that higher teacher pay does not necessarily mean better results. That is not the same thing as saying we need to pay teachers based on the results they achieve. The two are not even related.

And now I see the real reason you are pretending you can’t follow along. I dared suggest that not every single thing the teachers union does is only in the best interest of kids so of course you have to attack my position. Even if it means dishonestly making crap up to do so. Which you clearly are.

I know you will refuse to admit it but let me try and help you one last time.
When I said that “it doesn’t appear that teachers salary is tied that closely to students success.” It was in response to someone saying raising teacher pay would get better results. I demonstrated that the two are not related proven by some states that are near the top as far as pay but near the bottom as far as results. While for some others it’s flip flopped.
Just because I used the word tie does not mean I want to tie teachers pay to results. I know that is a hard concept to grasp.

And yes it is in the teachers union best interest to make people think that the more we pay teachers the better results we will get. Which is why I said “Though I have no doubt the teachers union wants people to think it is.


Nothing in that is me saying we should tie teachers pay to results. Nothing.



I know this will fall on deaf ears because you are already outrage that I dared not sing the praises of every action the teachers union makes but at least no one can say I didn’t try and help you out.

 

[Tangmo]

Well, wealth is most highly correlated with education. People with more rigorous higher level degrees and overall education make more money and tend to manage their money better than the average. This is born out in all sorts of data. Further, educated people are less likely to have criminal records, children with multiple partners out of wedlock, etc. It really isn't hard to see that this all tied together rather clearly. People who have values and motivation will avoid making the basic mistakes (unplanned children, legal problems, drug problems) and will actively pursue better choices (better educations, investments, life decisions). This results in their children being raised in higher income homes with a higher likelihood of learning those some values and traits.

Asians immigrants in the US are pretty much the perfect example. Come here roughly as poor as other immigrants, language and culture barrier, second generation is almost always far more successful than the average citizen. Why do you think that is?



How to deal with... a flu? Is that where you put sick people in with the most vulnerable? The data is the data bud. Sorry it doesn't work out for you. Again, I will note you are ignoring the economic underperformance and flight from these heavy lockdown states.



This is historically true in certain situations (ie: Cubans) it is however less true with long standing immigration patterns. Classic example, hispanics. The hispanics fleeing (illegally mind you) are coming to this country with nothing, not even an education, and certainly not because they seek a chance to go to MIT or Caltech, but rather a place that is simply safe. They are motivated because of necessity, not desire. Yet, these immigrants also outperform the chronic failures in society. Look at the poorest cohort in the nation, first generation illegals, they outperform in all aspects the chronically failing schools. Again, values.



How does a kid learn motivation? Parents. Circle back to my opening statement. Crappy parents raise crappy children. It isn't because they couldn't afford a box of motivation for their children, it is because the parents are wastes of space and their children have a high likelihood of emulating that. By the time they get into education it is often too late and the mountain too high to climb for an educator to manage in 6 hours a day.

Teachers with overcrowded classrooms, where is the money going then? We spend more than any other major country in the world on education, by *FAR* and y et the worst results? One of the key differences is lost cause kids are thrown away in other societies and resources are not wasted on them.

I did not write the following in post #234 erroneously attributed to me as in the above.

This is the quoted post wrongly attributed to me, and to which there is no link to and in my username....

Tangmo said:
it's about motivation. a smart student who wants to learn, is going to succeed in school, no matter where that school is or how weak their teachers may be
in contrast, a child who has no interest in education, will not receive a good one
we might wish a teacher of 30-40 kids would provide that inspiration, and sometimes that happens, but largely, that student's desire for learning and academic accomplishment must come from the home.

In fact besides, I have not posted to this thread. Nor would I write such vacuous garbage to begin with.

So DP continues to have glitches too many of which are btw, and remain, unresolved.

 

[Hatuey]

Democrats are only interested in radicalizing kids. Unless it's their kids:

Sidwell Friends School

This is a Quaker public institution that gives preference to Quakers, and then everyone else.

Them the radical leftists you talking about?

 

[bave]

please share with us the genetic distinction you referred to rich parents having

You don't think there is a genetic component to intelligence and academic performance and that those two things are also highly correlated to income?

Your post is poorly thought out. Are you familiar with regression analysis? The first lottery you are in is the parent lottery. If you lose that one, it's damn near impossible to make up for it. What's "tied together" is the correlation between the socioeconomic levels of the parents and that of their adult children.

I believe that has been the crux of my position from word one on this thread. Public education largely can't overcome crap parents regardless of spending. If Cletus and Mary Sue are cousins and start cranking out kids in Appalachia that all rock 70 IQs and their parents have 80 IQs then the local school system can't really help those kids especially if their parents are both sitting at home on SSDI, Medicaid, and TANF telling their kids work is for suckers while cranking out bottle-meth.

We need to stop focusing all of our resources on the bottom end kids and focus on the middle 50% of kids. You aren't going to help the bottom 20% of kids, you can make a material difference in the 21st to 70th percentiles. The top 30 percent don't need nearly as much help. Again, look at what we spend in public schools warehousing kids with CP, chronic discipline problems, no-child left behind'rs, etc.

I don’t think it is always a failure. I just came back from an annual event honoring achievements of the school district’s former HS students. One is now a research doctor who discovered a new protein. Others had equal prominence in other fields. Somehow public education worked for them and other students.

Oh, no argument. I am not talking about the individual school or teacher, but rather the system. A system where we spend more than anyone else in the world and get middling results. That's the failure.

International study: American teacher salaries lag behind other nations, pay a factor in attracting top people to field​

International study: American teacher salaries lag behind other nations, pay a factor in attracting top people to field

Spain, New Zealand and Germany were at the top in the teacher compensation study, while Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Iceland and the Czech Republic were below the United States.

www.mlive.com

And by the way, public schools are more successful than Charter schools.

The best and worst countries to be a teacher, based on salary

This week was Teacher Appreciation Week. Here's a look at how teacher salaries stack up across several different countries.

www.businessinsider.com

I don't know the validity of the article, but it was the first one that pulled up. I am not inclined to believe a source that is from an NEA think tank. When I was on a local school board years ago I had up to date information on this topic and we were routineliny the in the top 3 nations globally in teacher pay and the other two were usually Switzerland and Luxembourg. I do remember that places like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan all had wildly variable teacher scales where actual superstar teachers got paid like it. We need to do that as well. Why we are paying math teachers the same as gym teachers is beyond me.

Again, this is less about any single line item of spending but rather system wide costs compared to performance. The system is a failure. Do all charter schools under/outperform, of course not. Depends on their comparison. What you do however need is an option for parents to eject from a school district that is failinga nd harming their child.

 

[MTAtech]

...
Again, this is less about any single line item of spending but rather system wide costs compared to performance. The system is a failure. Do all charter schools under/outperform, of course not. Depends on their comparison. What you do however need is an option for parents to eject from a school district that is failinga nd harming their child.

Sounds like you are describing health care.
I also don't know where you got the idea that the U.S. spends more on education than anyone else. The country that spends the most on education, as ranked by p% of GDP, is Cuba. That's why they have essentially no illiteracy -- the lowest in the area.

List of countries by spending on education as percentage of GDP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bave]

Sounds like you are describing health care.
I also don't know where you got the idea that the U.S. spends more on education than anyone else. The country that spends the most on education, as ranked by p% of GDP, is Cuba. That's why they have essentially no illiteracy -- the lowest in the area.

List of countries by spending on education as percentage of GDP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's not a % of GDP question, its a nominal dollar question, albeit adjusted for PPP.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

It looks like the Biden administration* has chosen to go to war with the nation's students and parents, on behalf of the teachers unions:

Biden adds hurdles to federal grants for charter schools, keeps promise to teachers unions

The Biden administration is set to impose new rules for federal education grants that critics say are designed to limit the growth of public charter schools.

www.washingtontimes.com

I am not a big fan of teachers unions, but there has been a massive amount of corruption in charter schools, so I don't see a problem with tightening the requirements to federal money with them.

 

[justabubba]

No I didn’t and you are either simply not following the conversation or just seeing what you want to see. I don’t know where you are getting this from but it is simply not there.
Let me break it down for you.

If two people are discussing how to improve schools and one says we need to pay teachers more and the other points out that higher teacher pay does not necessarily mean better results. That is not the same thing as saying we need to pay teachers based on the results they achieve. The two are not even related.

And now I see the real reason you are pretending you can’t follow along. I dared suggest that not every single thing the teachers union does is only in the best interest of kids so of course you have to attack my position. Even if it means dishonestly making crap up to do so. Which you clearly are.

I know you will refuse to admit it but let me try and help you one last time.
When I said that “it doesn’t appear that teachers salary is tied that closely to students success.” It was in response to someone saying raising teacher pay would get better results. I demonstrated that the two are not related proven by some states that are near the top as far as pay but near the bottom as far as results. While for some others it’s flip flopped.
Just because I used the word tie does not mean I want to tie teachers pay to results. I know that is a hard concept to grasp.

And yes it is in the teachers union best interest to make people think that the more we pay teachers the better results we will get. Which is why I said “Though I have no doubt the teachers union wants people to think it is.


Nothing in that is me saying we should tie teachers pay to results. Nothing.



I know this will fall on deaf ears because you are already outrage that I dared not sing the praises of every action the teachers union makes but at least no one can say I didn’t try and help you out.

[above emphasis added by bubba]
i TWICE quoted you asserting that the teachers union would want to propagandize its support of a nexus between student academic performance and teacher compensation
they were YOUR words; here they are again:

... it doesn’t appear that teachers salary is tied that closely to students success.
Though I have no doubt the teachers union wants people to think it is. ...

and that was after i explained why such a correlation between student scores and teacher pay was such a flawed concept
your attempt was to malign the teachers union as being supportive of that manner of compensation when it has consistently been against such measures
it is one thing for you to be opposed to the existence of a teachers union. it is quite another for you to fabricate a position that union does not hold
and i called you out for it
which you followed up with your posted angst

 

[MTAtech]

It's not a % of GDP question, its a nominal dollar question, albeit adjusted for PPP.

Where is your data?
Nominal dollars is a faulty measurer because of differential costs. A teacher in Syosset, NY probably earns ten times what a teacher in Cuba earns.

 

[MTAtech]

[above emphasis added by bubba]
i TWICE quoted you asserting that the teachers union would want to propagandize its support of a nexus between student academic performance and teacher compensation
they were YOUR words; here they are again:


and that was after i explained why such a correlation between student scores and teacher pay was such a flawed concept
your attempt was to malign the teachers union as being supportive of that manner of compensation when it has consistently been against such measures
it is one thing for you to be opposed to the existence of a teachers union. it is quite another for you to fabricate a position that union does not hold
and i called you out for it
which you followed up with your posted angst

It isn't a surprise to me that high performing schools have highly paid teachers. Teachers in Jericho, NY typically earn over $100,000 a year and the district is repeatedly recognized as one of the best in the nation.

2024 Best Places to Teach in New York

Top New York school districts to teach at based on teacher salary, district ranking, teacher turnover, and more.

www.niche.com

 

[bave]

Where is your data?
Nominal dollars is a faulty measurer because of differential costs. A teacher in Syosset, NY probably earns ten times what a teacher in Cuba earns.

The data is all over the place, a simple google search will give you whatever you are looking for as far as breakdown and years.

I am not looking to compare Cuba to the US. Third world nations are going to have dramatically lower nominal spending and dramatically higher as a percentage of their economic output. Even if you did it by GDP the US is still going to be near the top with results near the middle, at best.

 

[justabubba]

It isn't a surprise to me that high performing schools have highly paid teachers. Teachers in Jericho, NY typically earn over $100,000 a year and the district is repeatedly recognized as one of the best in the nation.

2024 Best Places to Teach in New York

Top New York school districts to teach at based on teacher salary, district ranking, teacher turnover, and more.

www.niche.com

under-performing schools in my burg have been authorized to offer up to a ~ $5,000 premium to teachers found to have been high performing in other schools
there are few superior teachers who agree to leave their pleasant teaching careers at their current schools to accept combat pay to move to one filled with management problems and problem students

 

[MTAtech]

The data is all over the place, a simple google search will give you whatever you are looking for as far as breakdown and years.

I am not looking to compare Cuba to the US. Third world nations are going to have dramatically lower nominal spending and dramatically higher as a percentage of their economic output. Even if you did it by GDP the US is still going to be near the top with results near the middle, at best.

I'm just looking for backup of your claim that the U.S. spends more on education than anyone else. You must have gotten it from somewhere. I'm just asking where. I couldn't imagine you just pulling something straight out of thin air.

 

[bave]

It isn't a surprise to me that high performing schools have highly paid teachers. Teachers in Jericho, NY typically earn over $100,000 a year and the district is repeatedly recognized as one of the best in the nation.

2024 Best Places to Teach in New York

Top New York school districts to teach at based on teacher salary, district ranking, teacher turnover, and more.

www.niche.com

Why would it be a surprise to anyone? That town has median household income of $110k/yr and is tiny. So, you found a community that has an average income in the top quintile and then feign shock that they have high performing students?

What about the Eanes School District in Austin, TX? There the average salary is $56k/yr and they are routinely ranked as a top five school district in the nation. Why do you think that is? Ohhhh, right. Austin is an incredibly wealthy, high income, and highly educated community. Shocking that their kids pick up those values.

 

[bave]

I'm just looking for backup of your claim that the U.S. spends more on education than anyone else. You must have gotten it from somewhere. I'm just asking where. I couldn't imagine you just pulling something straight out of thin air.

Glad to see you didn't even try to look it up. Three seconds, first hit on google.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_cmd.pdf

The US, for elementary and secondary education only, was #5. Behind Luxemebourg, Switzerland, Norway and Austria. None of those countries are bigger than our largest *counties*. Meanwhile we are ~35-40% above OECD average spending depending on where you look.

 

[Cope]

would you please explain why the taxpayer should be expected to pay over in taxes a profit to private schools when public schools are ready and willing to educate all students

Because they do not and they aren't. They are failing to educate the children.

 

[Cope]

You will still keep poor kids in failing schools. There will be no real change except making failing schools worse.

Primarily correct, as the change cannot come from the school, or the government or to be had by throwing money at it. The change needed to drive success in those communities has to come from within those communities.

 

[Cope]

it's about motivation. a smart student who wants to learn, is going to succeed in school, no matter where that school is or how weak their teachers may be
in contrast, a child who has no interest in education, will not receive a good one
we might wish a teacher of 30-40 kids would provide that inspiration, and sometimes that happens, but largely, that student's desire for learning and academic accomplishment must come from the home

Correct! So how does spending money on people not so motivated help exactly?

The question you should be asking is how do you drive the changes needed in the COMMUNITIES that need motivation in order to do the things necessary to care about their child's education.

 

[NolanVoyd]

You keep right on telling yourself that, as states continue to ban teaching the racist precepts of CRT in K-12 schools, parents continue chucking out school board members supporting teaching it, and states continue to pass legislation requiring transparency in what is taught in schools.


Even assuming that everything in your link about Charter Schools USA can be taken at face value, do you think that is representative of all charter schools in Florida, much less the rest of the US?

You don't think there is a genetic component to intelligence and academic performance and that those two things are also highly correlated to income?



I believe that has been the crux of my position from word one on this thread. Public education largely can't overcome crap parents regardless of spending. If Cletus and Mary Sue are cousins and start cranking out kids in Appalachia that all rock 70 IQs and their parents have 80 IQs then the local school system can't really help those kids especially if their parents are both sitting at home on SSDI, Medicaid, and TANF telling their kids work is for suckers while cranking out bottle-meth.

We need to stop focusing all of our resources on the bottom end kids and focus on the middle 50% of kids. You aren't going to help the bottom 20% of kids, you can make a material difference in the 21st to 70th percentiles. The top 30 percent don't need nearly as much help. Again, look at what we spend in public schools warehousing kids with CP, chronic discipline problems, no-child left behind'rs, etc.



Oh, no argument. I am not talking about the individual school or teacher, but rather the system. A system where we spend more than anyone else in the world and get middling results. That's the failure.

The best and worst countries to be a teacher, based on salary

This week was Teacher Appreciation Week. Here's a look at how teacher salaries stack up across several different countries.

www.businessinsider.com

I don't know the validity of the article, but it was the first one that pulled up. I am not inclined to believe a source that is from an NEA think tank. When I was on a local school board years ago I had up to date information on this topic and we were routineliny the in the top 3 nations globally in teacher pay and the other two were usually Switzerland and Luxembourg. I do remember that places like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan all had wildly variable teacher scales where actual superstar teachers got paid like it. We need to do that as well. Why we are paying math teachers the same as gym teachers is beyond me.

Again, this is less about any single line item of spending but rather system wide costs compared to performance. The system is a failure. Do all charter schools under/outperform, of course not. Depends on their comparison. What you do however need is an option for parents to eject from a school district that is failinga nd harming their child.

Those are verifiable facts.

You don't believe anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

Sad.

But that is the way of the right in the 21st century.

 

[Cope]

I don't know the validity of the article, but it was the first one that pulled up. I am not inclined to believe a source that is from an NEA think tank. When I was on a local school board years ago I had up to date information on this topic and we were routineliny the in the top 3 nations globally in teacher pay and the other two were usually Switzerland and Luxembourg. I do remember that places like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan all had wildly variable teacher scales where actual superstar teachers got paid like it. We need to do that as well. Why we are paying math teachers the same as gym teachers is beyond me.

That would be the wonderful union at work.

Again, this is less about any single line item of spending but rather system wide costs compared to performance. The system is a failure. Do all charter schools under/outperform, of course not. Depends on their comparison. What you do however need is an option for parents to eject from a school district that is failinga nd harming their child.

Agreed. Currently they receive zero federal funding and yet routinely perform as well as public schools that we continue to throw money at to fix problems, they cannot even identify, much less fix.

 

[justabubba]

Because they do not and they aren't. They are failing to educate the children.

share with us the data which will inform us the public schools are not willing and able to educate all students

until you do, your post can only be found unsubstantiated, uninformed opinion

 

[bave]

Those are verifiable facts.

You don't believe anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

Sad.

But that is the way of the right in the 21st century.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? You quote multiple people, making multiple points, and you respond with this? Looks like another product of the public school system.