Biblical Tree of Knowledge

[JP Cusick]

I'm referring to the Bible. That's what Grand Mal and I were discussing - it got to do with Genesis.

That is true - I was talking about real life, as in taking your face out of the book and seeing how the words apply to real living people.

You two are on the same pages - well I can see those pages too.

If one does not take it out of the Bible and apply it to real life then you are just arguing words based on the book without any reality.

That is why he views the story as a myth and apparently you are doing the same thing as he.

 

[tosca1]

That is true - I was talking about real life, as in taking your face out of the book and seeing how the words apply to real living people.

You two are on the same pages - well I can see those pages too.

If one does not take it out of the Bible and apply it to real life then you are just arguing words based on the book without any reality.

That is why he views the story as a myth and apparently you are doing the same thing as he.

But all that you've said was your opinion! You're entitled to it. However, you've got no authority on the matter to correct me, especially when you don't back it up with anything.

I've explained that in the Biblical sense, reality-wise - goodness and righteousness are hardly different!

Anyway.....no one is saying it doesn't apply to real life! :roll:


We're (Grand Mal and I) debating, how we got the concept of good and evil! Where the concept came from!

I think Grand Mal had also explained that to you!

 

[JP Cusick]

But all that you've said was your opinion! You're entitled to it. However, you've got no authority on the matter to correct me, especially when you don't back it up with anything.

It is not just my opinion, as it is the accurate truth too.

You might be in need of some outside authority, but I do not have that same defect for me.

I've explained that in the Biblical sense, reality-wise - goodness and righteousness are hardly different!

They are different.

The problem is that you are poisoned with that knowledge of good and bad and so the poison is controlling your own perspective.

I myself had to remove the poison knowledge from myself some years ago and it is not so easy to do.

We're (Grand Mal and I) debating, how we got the concept of good and evil! Where the concept came from!

I think Grand Mal had also explained that to you!

I do not care about you two.

This forum does not give you some private debate as I am free to include myself into this discussion at my own convenience and not yours.

And obviously both of you come up short on this subject.

 

[tosca1]

It is not just my opinion, as it is the accurate truth too.

You might be in need of some outside authority, but I do not have that same defect for me.


They are different.

The problem is that you are poisoned with that knowledge of good and bad and so the poison is controlling your own perspective.

I myself had to remove the poison knowledge from myself some years ago and it is not so easy to do.


I do not care about you two.

This forum does not give you some private debate as I am free to include myself into this discussion at my own convenience and not yours.

And obviously both of you come up short on this subject.

I don't know anything of the poison you speak of. Your sentiment seems to be in contradiction to what the
New Testament had said, and you don't seem to consider the purpose for the Messiah.



The one thing I know for certain is that Jesus Christ had already redeemed us from that sin.

Whatever "poison" is it that's been caused by eating from that tree is definitely......GONE!

Trust in Christ. He's done what He came to do. We can all rejoice in that knowledge!

 

[tosca1]

This forum does not give you some private debate as I am free to include myself into this discussion at my own convenience and not yours.

And obviously both of you come up short on this subject.

No one tries to exclude you. I'm simply saying you insist to bring in an argument that's irrelevant to
our "private" discussion.
Nothing wrong about injecting your thoughts into this, however....you're castigating us both - and labelling us - with your wagging finger to boot! :lol:

You're forcing us to direct our discussion on your terms. You should create your own thread for that.


That would be like us (Grand Mal and I) playing basketball, and here you come insisting us to play by football rules! And you appoint yourself the referee! :mrgreen:

....whether we like it or not.




If we turn the tables around, that would be like you insisting to derail our discussion.


The OP stated clearly why this thread was created. Plus....it's been explained to you by both Grand Mal and I. :shrug:

 

[ludin]

When God says "One of us", who might the rest of "us" be?

Speaking of God the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Speaking of God the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus hadn't been split off at that point, God was jealous of the other Gods much later too. Who were "The rest of US" And come to think of it, who was he talking TO? Himself? He already knew.

 

[ludin]

Jesus hadn't been split off at that point, God was jealous of the other Gods much later too. Who were "The rest of US" And come to think of it, who was he talking TO? Himself? He already knew.

He didn't have to be split off as Christ is part of the Triune God along with the Holy Spirit.
I already said who the rest of US is.

He wouldn't be talking to himself that would be foolish and if he was talking to himself it wouldn't have used a plural form to do it.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Who then was he talking to?

 

[JP Cusick]

I don't know anything of the poison you speak of. Your sentiment seems to be in contradiction to what the
New Testament had said, and you don't seem to consider the purpose for the Messiah.

The one thing I know for certain is that Jesus Christ had already redeemed us from that sin.

Whatever "poison" is it that's been caused by eating from that tree is definitely......GONE!

Trust in Christ. He's done what He came to do. We can all rejoice in that knowledge!

Since the same poisoned knowledge is still ongoing today, and we can see it and experience it in our self and in every other person on the planet earth, - then yes that poisoned knowledge is not only real but it is NOT done away or gone.

Jesus paid the ultimate punishment for all sins, but the poisoned knowledge goes onward as we still do live in a lost world.

 

[ludin]

Who then was he talking to?

I already told you why do I have to repeat myself again? go read.

 

[ludin]

I don't know anything of the poison you speak of. Your sentiment seems to be in contradiction to what the
New Testament had said, and you don't seem to consider the purpose for the Messiah.



The one thing I know for certain is that Jesus Christ had already redeemed us from that sin.

Whatever "poison" is it that's been caused by eating from that tree is definitely......GONE!

Trust in Christ. He's done what He came to do. We can all rejoice in that knowledge!

Christ paid the punishment for sin which is death.

that doesn't mean that it was removed. it won't be removed till his return.

 

[Manc Skipper]

I already told you why do I have to repeat myself again? go read.

No, you didn't. You said he was a triune god, and one part spoke to the others, yet you denied he was speaking to himself. Which ones?

 

[JP Cusick]

I already told you why do I have to repeat myself again? go read.

I find it to be better to repeat our self, as the person did not understand then try to make it more clear for them.

If you want to testify - then testify.

 

[tosca1]

Christ paid the punishment for sin which is death.

that doesn't mean that it was removed. it won't be removed till his return.

Yes. I'm not saying there is no more sin.
Christ died to provide the way to heaven/eternal life for sinful mankind. God had declared that all who sin will die. the wages of sin is death. That was the expected fate for all mankind, however the merciful Father found a way for us to be delivered from that fate.


JP Cusick's statement about the "poison" is confusing. I think he's mixed his belief with other philosophical teachings, like Buddhism. I question this one in particular:

JP Cusick
The problem is that you are poisoned with that knowledge of good and bad and so the poison is controlling your own perspective.
I myself had to remove the poison knowledge from myself some years ago and it is not so easy to do.

I would understand it if he refers to the poison as the "curse" and/or our sinful nature which we inherited from Adam.

I don't think it's the tree that's "poisoned" us - I believe it's the act of disobedience of Adam that did.
That was the first sin committed.

It's not the tree of knowledge that had cursed us! It was Adam's disobedience!

 

[JP Cusick]

I don't think it's the tree that's "poisoned" us - I believe it's the act of disobedience of Adam that did.
That was the first sin committed.

It's not the tree of knowledge that had cursed us! It was Adam's disobedience!

It is NOT the tree that poisoned humanity - it is that knowledge of good and bad which is the poison.

That is why it is in our human mind and human brain as it is poisoned knowledge.

We can call it as a curse, but it is also a curable curse because with some effort and research to do it correctly then we can mentally isolate and suppress that poisoned knowledge.

Claiming that the story is just about the "disobedience" of Adam and Eve is so misleading that it misses the point completely.

It is like a child that cries about getting a spanking but never understood whatever they did wrong in the first place that got them the spanking.

It is NOT that we disobeyed or that we got cursed - no - it is that we became defective by being infected with the poisoned knowledge.

 

[ludin]

No, you didn't. You said he was a triune god, and one part spoke to the others, yet you denied he was speaking to himself. Which ones?

I told you when he he said let US make man in OUR image. he is referring and talking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
it isn't that hard to get so I shouldn't have to repeat myself again.

 

[tosca1]

It is NOT the tree that poisoned humanity - it is that knowledge of good and bad which is the poison.

That is why it is in our human mind and human brain as it is poisoned knowledge.

We can call it as a curse, but it is also a curable curse because with some effort and research to do it correctly then we can mentally isolate and suppress that poisoned knowledge.

Claiming that the story is just about the "disobedience" of Adam and Eve is so misleading that it misses the point completely.

It is like a child that cries about getting a spanking but never understood whatever they did wrong in the first place that got them the spanking.

It is NOT that we disobeyed or that we got cursed - no - it is that we became defective by being infected with the poisoned knowledge.

It's disobedience that got Adam.

And yes, you can say that it infected us, thus we are in this current mess.
Although Adam committed the first sin, we are guilty on the basis of our own sin - our own disobedience. Sin was not abolished.
Is that what you mean?




Genesis 3:17-19
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”





Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

 

[ludin]

Yes. I'm not saying there is no more sin.
Christ died to provide the way to heaven/eternal life for sinful mankind. God had declared that all who sin will die. the wages of sin is death. That was the expected fate for all mankind, however the merciful Father found a way for us to be delivered from that fate.


JP Cusick's statement about the "poison" is confusing. I think he's mixed his belief with other philosophical teachings, like Buddhism. I question this one in particular:




I would understand it if he refers to the poison as the "curse" and/or our sinful nature which we inherited from Adam.

I don't think it's the tree that's "poisoned" us - I believe it's the act of disobedience of Adam that did.
That was the first sin committed.

It's not the tree of knowledge that had cursed us! It was Adam's disobedience!

well it was a combination of things.

1. disobedience was right up there at the top for sure.
2. They had already gained the knowledge of good and evil and their first thing adam did was blame someone else for his own mistake.
therefore they had let sin loose into the world. if they had eat of the tree of life (which sustain them in their perfect state) then they would live forever with the knowledge of good
and evil.

the punishment of eating from the tree was death. but in greek death has multiple meanings.

the general definition of death is a separation of things.

1. They were separated from God permanently.
2. They were separated from each other as they knew each other were naked where before they didn't.
3. They would at some point die and their spirit would be separated from their body.

 

[Manc Skipper]

I told you when he he said let US make man in OUR image. he is referring and talking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
it isn't that hard to get so I shouldn't have to repeat myself again.

We are talking about him punishing Adam and Eve because by eating from the tree they became "like one of us". You also said he didn't talk to himself. They are supposed to be him. Who was he talking to?

 

[tosca1]

We are talking about him punishing Adam and Eve because by eating from the tree they became "like one of us". You also said he didn't talk to himself. They are supposed to be him. Who was he talking to?

Since the Bible, and the New Testament especially, presents God as a Trinity (three Persons but only one God), Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 can only represent a conversation within the Trinity. God the Father is having a “conversation” with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament hints at the plurality of God, and the New Testament clarifies this plurality with the doctrine of the Trinity. Obviously, there is no way we can fully understand how this works, but God has given us enough information to know that He does exist in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Read more: Why does God refer to Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22?

 

[Manc Skipper]

How can any one of the three be part of the same but not know what the other two know? It's ridiculous. And he said God never talked to himself.

 

[ludin]

We are talking about him punishing Adam and Eve because by eating from the tree they became "like one of us". You also said he didn't talk to himself. They are supposed to be him. Who was he talking to?

Jesus and the Holy spirit. If you ask the same question again I will just tell you the same thing over again.

 

[ludin]

How can any one of the three be part of the same but not know what the other two know? It's ridiculous. And he said God never talked to himself.

they are one entity but 3 distinct natures.

 

[tosca1]

Christ paid the punishment for sin which is death.

that doesn't mean that it was removed. it won't be removed till his return.

Just so you'll understand my rejection of JP Cusick's pov:

Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post

I do not claim any divinity to Jesus as I really see that claim to lower and degrade Jesus so that if Jesus was "divine" then His sacrifice was really just a charade.

We really have to separate Christianity from Jesus because they are vastly different things.

Christianity is a huge bunch of people who make claims about Jesus and about God and the Christian people are very wrong and misguided.

Since you know that Jesus was not divine then that puts you closer to the truth then are the Christians who see Jesus as divine.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/220172-atheist-7.html


He does not believe Jesus is "divine," and he tries to negate the purpose of the Messiah.

I don't know what he means by "divine".....but based from previous encounter with him, he seems to adhere to different set of beliefs that are not traditionally Christian. I suspect he's made his own smorgasbord of belief, picked from other belief system/religion.

As you can see from that post of his, it is a very confused, or rambling view he presents.