Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Own Tanks, Officials Say

[PoS]

Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Its Own

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks.

www.wsj.com

German Putin loving douchebags are at it again. Its funny they ignored the UK's sending of their own Challenger 2 tanks. I bet if the US does send the M1s, the Germans will make another excuse, like demanding that Russia send T-34s to Ukraine first before they allow Leopard 2s to be sent.

 

[ataraxia]

So what's the debate topic here?

 

[Bok Tuklo]

I do not believe that is unreasonable. If there is to be escalation in support for Ukraine, the US should take the lead.

 

[Mr Person]

Ok, let's send tanks too.

 

[Surrealistik]

Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Its Own

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks.

www.wsj.com

German Putin loving douchebags are at it again. Its funny they ignored the UK's sending of their own Challenger 2 tanks. I bet if the US does send the M1s, the Germans will make another excuse, like demanding that Russia send T-34s to Ukraine first before they allow Leopard 2s to be sent.

A shameful and transparent excuse that fools no one except those who desperately wish to be.

 

[Pippi Longstock]

Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Its Own

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks.

www.wsj.com

German Putin loving douchebags are at it again. Its funny they ignored the UK's sending of their own Challenger 2 tanks. I bet if the US does send the M1s, the Germans will make another excuse, like demanding that Russia send T-34s to Ukraine first before they allow Leopard 2s to be sent.

American politicians love war. Plain and simple they were just itching to get back in after they pulled out of Afghanistan. Baby steps before they full on support and fund it.

 

[Tigerace117]

Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Its Own

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks.

www.wsj.com

German Putin loving douchebags are at it again. Its funny they ignored the UK's sending of their own Challenger 2 tanks. I bet if the US does send the M1s, the Germans will make another excuse, like demanding that Russia send T-34s to Ukraine first before they allow Leopard 2s to be sent.

.....Germany has every right to do what they want with their own tanks. Wailing “but Britain is sending tanks” means zilch; Britain is little more than America’s poodle these days.

 

[Tigerace117]

A shameful and transparent excuse that fools no one except those who desperately wish to be.

Sovereign countries have the right to do what they want with their equipment. Given what shambles the German military is in they probably shouldn’t be donating anything in the first place.

 

[Surrealistik]

Sovereign countries have the right to do what they want with their equipment. Given what shambles the German military is in they probably shouldn’t be donating anything in the first place.

And they have the right to be duly criticized and pressured for what they choose to do with said equipment; doubly so when making transparent excuses in an obvious attempt to avoid censure.

Also, which threats are they presently facing or can reasonably expect to face in the foreseeable future?

 

[Tigerace117]

And they have the right to be duly criticized and pressured for what they choose to do with said equipment; doubly so when making transparent excuses in an obvious attempt to avoid censure.

Also, which threats are they presently facing or can reasonably expect to face in the foreseeable future?

Considering the amount of hot air blown at Germany for not having a functioning military or spending enough on it in the first place, the sudden 180 is rather hypocritical.

Furthemore, threats can and do routinely emerge from unexpected places. Going “but they seem safe” does not eliminate their obligations, which come to their own nation first

 

[Surrealistik]

Considering the amount of hot air blown at Germany for not having a functioning military or spending enough on it in the first place, the sudden 180 is rather hypocritical.

Furthemore, threats can and do routinely emerge from unexpected places. Going “but they seem safe” does not eliminate their obligations, which come to their own nation first

Between NATO and the complete dearth of actual threats, they'll be more than fine.

 

[Tigerace117]

Between NATO and the complete dearth of actual threats, they'll be more than fine.

No such “actual threats” have existed for years, yet DC has been screaming bloody murder all this time about the Germans not spending.

You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Surrealistik]

No such “actual threats” have existed for years, yet DC has been screaming bloody murder all this time about the Germans not spending.

You can’t have it both ways.

You certainly can given the Germans were not upholding their written spending agreements which is the actual substance underlying the complaint, not the presence or dearth of imminent threats.

Also, it should be noted that the Germans, or rather Scholz specifically, won't even agree to have Leopards re-exported which costs them nothing, and doesn't undermine their defense whatsoever.

 

[Tigerace117]

You certainly can given the Germans were not upholding their written spending agreements which is the actual substance underlying the complaint, not the presence or dearth of imminent threats.

Also, it should be clear that the Germans won't even agree to have Leopards re-exported which costs them nothing, and doesn't undermine their defense whatsoever.

It’s their tanks. They can do what they want with them. And complaining about the Germans not spending and then turning around and complaining about them not handing over what vehicles they do have available is, once again, rather hypocritical.

 

[Surrealistik]

It’s their tanks. They can do what they want with them. And complaining about the Germans not spending and then turning around and complaining about them not handing over what vehicles they do have available is, once again, rather hypocritical.

Complaining about them not fulfilling the things they agreed to officially and in writing as a stated, known and well-understood obligation of an alliance and institution to which they are party is not remotely hypocritical whatsoever.

And yes, as stated previously, the Leopards are indeed Germany's tanks; so long as he has the power, Scholtz is free to do as he likes with regards to the Leopards, just as he's free to suffer the pressure, political fallout and censure for choosing neither to contribute them, nor to allow their re-export, as he most certainly is at present. I only hope it intensifies to the point that his hand on the matter is forced.

 

[Tigerace117]

Complaining about them not fulfilling the things they agreed to officially and in writing as a stated, known and well-understood obligation of an alliance and institution to which they are party is not remotely hypocritical whatsoever.

And yes, as stated previously, the Leopards are indeed Germany's tanks; so long as he has the power, Scholtz is free to do as he likes with regards to the Leopards, just as he's free to suffer the pressure, political fallout and censure for choosing neither to contribute them, nor to allow their re-export, as he most certainly is at present. I only hope it intensifies to the point that his hand on the matter is forced.

It certainly is when you are also whining about them not handing over said tanks....and then whining about their military not being in working condition. The fact of the matter is that the German military is in no shape to engage in charity at this point

 

[Surrealistik]

It certainly is when you are also whining about them not handing over said tanks....and then whining about their military not being in working condition.

Again, faulting them for the specific sin of failing to live up to their agreed upon defense spending obligations as a signatory and member of NATO is not actually equivalent to faulting them for specifically not having enough Leopards in their arsenal which would be an actual requisite for hypocrisy in this case; these are two separate and distinct things obviously, and no one is or has been doing the latter.

Moreover, even if I accepted what you term to be hypocritical (which I do not), critiquing them for not authorizing the re-export of Leopards cannot by this vantage, or any other, be considered hypocritical.

The fact of the matter is that the German military is in no shape to engage in charity at this point

According to what professional assessment (to preempt you, it should be noted that failure to abide by NATO spending obligations is not necessarily a determinant of the health of a military)? Also how does authorizing the re-export of other countries' tanks undermine German defense?

 

[Tigerace117]

Again, faulting them for the specific sin of failing to live up to their agreed upon defense spending obligations as a signatory and member of NATO is not actually equivalent to faulting them for specifically not having enough Leopards in their arsenal which would be an actual requisite for hypocrisy in this case; these are two separate and distinct things obviously, and no one is or has been doing the latter.

Moreover, even if I accepted what you term to be hypocritical (which I do not), critiquing them for not authorizing the re-export of Leopards cannot by this vantage, or any other be considered hypocritical.



According to what professional assessment? Also how does authorizing the re-export of other countries' tanks undermine German defense?

According to all of the assessments which have pointed out the fact that the German military flat out doesn’t work.

They can do what they want with their tanks. No amount of squirming can change that.

 

[Surrealistik]

According to all of the assessments which have pointed out the fact that the German military flat out doesn’t work.

They can do what they want with their tanks. No amount of squirming can change that.

Which assessments have determined that Germany specifically cannot afford to provide Leopard tanks to Ukraine?

Your second sentence has already been addressed multiple times.

 

[Tigerace117]

Which assessments have determined that Germany specifically cannot afford to provide Leopard tanks to Ukraine?

Your second sentence has already been addressed multiple times.

A nation whose military already doesn’t work giving away vehicles they need is stupid.

 

[Surrealistik]

A nation whose military already doesn’t work giving away vehicles they need is stupid.

Which assessments?

 

[Tigerace117]

Which assessments?

A nation whose military already doesn’t work giving away vehicles they need is stupid.

 

[Surrealistik]

A nation whose military already doesn’t work giving away vehicles they need is stupid.

In otherwords, you cannot point to any authoritative assessment and are merely providing your personal opinion which is frankly weightless.

 

[Tigerace117]

In otherwords, you cannot point to any authoritative assessment and are merely providing your personal opinion which is frankly weightless.

Cool story.

Unfortunately for you, no amount of whining about Germany not engaging in “enough” charity to suit you changes reality.

 

[Surrealistik]

Cool story.

Unfortunately for you, no amount of whining about Germany not engaging in “enough” charity to suit you changes reality.

That remains to be seen given the mounting pressure on Scholz; I am content to see how this plays out for him.