BBC: Ukraine-Russia sea clash: Poroshenko urges Nato to send ships

[Rogue Valley]

It is obvious you didn't even bother to watch the Mattis interview because of the time I posted it till the time you responded. Which says it all. You have your bias and be damned what Mattis himself said. No sir, General Mattis is not a shadow of the USMC because he is serving under Trump. That is your problem, the rest of us are really happy to see this man serving in his position.

Sorry bub. I don't buy into vids. Link to the transcript. Still, I can't figure out why Gen. Mattis hangs around the draft-dodging cockroach Trump.

 

[Lionman]

Springtime For Putin and Lionman.

What a nonsense. What have I to do with Putin? Putin said he is not ready to live in peace with the Ukraine. He's an idiot too. But I see the bigger problem of a politics of senseless escalation in the very stupid self-centered politics of the USA.

In drag.

And all the Putin-Trump-Fanboys Crowd.

The new boyz in the block at the Bighouse.

Federal Penitentiary Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas Military Reservation

Among the concerns at this point is a Russian amphibious assault against Mariupol to connect Russian forces in Donbass to Crimea by land, to include absolute control of the Azov Sea. Black Sea and Sea of Azov become Lake Putin. Which in the event of your Russia-USA war would become a Nato shooting gallery without having to enter 'em. Putin btw is too short to look smart in an orange jumpsuit. Some of his fanboys would wear one well however.

The NATO is not able to win a war against Russia. And even if the USA will leave the NATO then Russia will also not be strong enough to win a war against Europe. And in general are all problems and wars in this context nonsense, which gives people of different nations only the feeling their governemts are strong and strength will help them to survive. But the real problem is to make the economy of the planet sustainably. We waste the natural resources without to rebuild them adequatelly the same time. We destroy our planet. Oh by the way: I guess we will need a new economy without superrich people. Superrichness is an abdomination.

 

[Rogue Valley]

What a nonsense. What have I to do with Putin? Putin said he is not ready to live in peace with the Ukraine. He's an idiot too. But I see the bigger problem of a politics of senseless escalation in the very stupid self-centered politics of the USA. The NATO is not able to win a war against Russia. And even if the USA will leave the NATO then Russia will also not be strong enough to win a war against Europe. And in general are all problems and wars in this context nonsense, which gives people of different nations only the feeling their governemts are strong and strength will help them to survive. But the real problem is to make the economy of the planet sustainably. We waste the natural resources without to rebuild them adequatelly the same time. We destroy our planet. Oh by the way: I guess we will need a new economy without superrich people. Superrichness is an abdomination.

What does your rant above have to do with the thread OP?

 

[Litwin]

What a nonsense. What have I to do with Putin? Putin said he is not ready to live in peace with the Ukraine. He's an idiot too. But I see the bigger problem of a politics of senseless escalation in the very stupid self-centered politics of the USA.



The NATO is not able to win a war against Russia. And even if the USA will leave the NATO then Russia will also not be strong enough to win a war against Europe. And in general are all problems and wars in this context nonsense, which gives people of different nations only the feeling their governemts are strong and strength will help them to survive. But the real problem is to make the economy of the planet sustainably. We waste the natural resources without to rebuild them adequatelly the same time. We destroy our planet. Oh by the way: I guess we will need a new economy without superrich people. Superrichness is an abdomination.

delirium ..."USA will leave the NATO " , or you post from Olgino

 

[Lionman]

What are you talking about? :shock:

I speak about that I don't understand why an antidemocratic Soviet, who supports the Russian tyrant Putin, uses the avatar name of the German region "Westphalia". That's absurde. And I speak about that politicians, who think they are able to solve problems with tyranny, idiocy or violence should leave their self made prisons of irreal thoughts and actions.

 

[Lionman]

delirium ..."USA will leave the NATO " , or you post from Olgino

?

 

[Rogue Valley]

I speak about that I don't understand why an antidemocratic Soviet, who supports the Russian tyrant Putin, uses the avatar name of the German region "Westphalia". That's absurde.

Very little of your post content is on the mark, but this description of Westphalian certainly is.

 

[Lionman]

Very little of your post content is on the mark, but this description of Westphalian certainly is.

Cacatum non est pictum. I think you don't have any problem to let everyone in the Ukraine and in Russia die - as long as the USA "wins". I hope as well the Ukraine and the Russian are not idiots and they will find a way to solve this confict without any form of violence. Violence will help no one.

 

[Westphalian]

I speak about that I don't understand why an antidemocratic Soviet, who supports the Russian tyrant Putin, uses the avatar name of the German region "Westphalia". That's absurde. And I speak about that politicians, who think they are able to solve problems with tyranny, idiocy or violence should leave their self made prisons of irreal thoughts and actions.

The more intelligent and knowledgeable members know exactly why I use that name.

Neither am I a Soviet, and neither is Putin a tyrant.

As for your post - I don't look at videos so please try to express yourself in words.

 

[Lionman]

The more intelligent and knowledgeable members know exactly why I use that name.

My hypothese is: because you are an evilwilling anti-german idiot. Now you tell me I am an idiot. And you use for this argument a not very detailed arrogance. I'm a German and I don't understand what "Westfalia" (=was a province of Prussia from 1815-1918) has to do with Communism. Westfalia did not suffer under the Soviet-Communism. They had to suffer under a lack of humor of the Brits after world war 2, that's all.

Neither am I a Soviet, and neither is Putin a tyrant.

Putin imprisons whomever he likes to imprison. Putin kills whomever he likes to kill. ...

As for your post - I don't look at videos so please try to express yourself in words.

"Only" the first few 50 million words are important - other words are often only empty phrases. If I would only use my own words then you had to learn one of the German dialects and/or languages if you would like to understand the context of my thoughts.

 

[Chagos]

My hypothese is: because you are an evilwilling anti-german idiot. ................~

Aw ferchrissake.

Before you bore everyone here with any more asinine hypotheses of yours, go and educate yourself on the concept of Westphalian sovereignty.

Whether the poster using it as his name does so with any justification or not is another matter, but you flailing around as blindly as you're doing in your efforts to understand, requires address.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I think....

That's the problem. You think of things you know nothing of.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Putin trip to Washington to meet with President Trump is now 'out of question,' Kremlin says


'Pain Will Grow' Over Detained Ukrainian Sailors, U.S. Warns Russia | The Moscow Times

12/5/18
A senior U.S. State Department official warned Moscow on Tuesday that it must release the Ukrainian sailors it detained in a naval incident late last month or face growing consequences. Russian vessels fired on and seized three Ukrainian naval ships on Nov. 25th as they attempted to pass through the narrow Kerch Strait into the Sea of Azov, which lies between Russia and Ukraine. Last Thursday, U.S. President Donald Trump canceled his scheduled meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin at a G20 summit over Moscow’s actions in the Kerch Strait. “We want the Russians to absorb the message that they need to release the crews or there will be consequences and the pain will grow over time,” the State Department official was quoted as saying at a briefing on Tuesday. The official also urged European countries to abandon their support for the NordStream 2 gas pipeline, which critics say will make Germany and Europe more dependent on Russia for its energy supplies. “The Kerch incident should be a reminder to all of our European allies on why Nord Stream 2 is such a bad idea,” he said.

Perhaps the Trump/Putin bromance is finally over. Good.

 

[Lionman]

Aw ferchrissake.

Before you bore everyone here with any more asinine hypotheses of yours, go and educate yourself on the concept of Westphalian sovereignty.

Since the holy empire was murdered Westfalia was a Prussian province. This means the Prussians decided what had happened in Westfalia from 1813-1918. Afterwards Westfalia was a very short time part of the republic of Weimar before in 1933 Hitler overtook Germany. Since world war 2 it is part of a German country with name "Nordrhein-Westfalien". I never heard Westfalia is a lighthouse for the federalism within Germany. What do you call "concept of Westphalian sovereignity"?

Whether the poster using it as his name does so with any justification or not is another matter, but you flailing around as blindly as you're doing in your efforts to understand, requires address.

I don't undesstand how someone is able to combine uncritical Pro-Russian statements with the avatar name "Westfalia". I see in such a behavior a propagandistic attack against the federal republic of German.

 

[Lionman]

That's the problem. You think of things you know nothing of.

That's by the way a typical form of argument, which the Nazis used once. What do I not know? Enlighten me. What justifies to go a way, which will lead in a worst case scenario to a nuclear war between the USA and Russia?

 

[Litwin]

Putin trip to Washington to meet with President Trump is now 'out of question,' Kremlin says


'Pain Will Grow' Over Detained Ukrainian Sailors, U.S. Warns Russia | The Moscow Times

Perhaps the Trump/Putin bromance is finally over. Good.

i don't think that trump can afford a love story with putler anymore ...

 

[Chagos]

What do you call "concept of Westphalian sovereignity"?

Well, I advised you to educate yourself upon it and if you refuse to, I'm not going to do it for you.

So you'll just have to remain ignorant on it.

 

[Rogue Valley]

[video=youtube;JnU_F2LwHrI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?JnU_F2LwHrI[/video]

 

[Rogue Valley]

European Council on Foreign Relations | Strait to war? Russia and Ukraine clash in the Sea of Azov

New Russian naval activities around Crimea could presage a new, maritime front in the war in eastern Ukraine.


European Council on Foreign Relations | Ukraine’s new front is Europe’s big challenge

There’s plenty Europe should do to push back against Russia’s latest attack on Ukraine.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Putin Must Be Punished | The New York Times

Portrait of Putin carried at a celebration of the anniversary of the annexation of the Crimea.

By Petro Poroshenko
12/5/18

In 2014, for the first time in seven decades, a state sought to redraw Europe’s map by way of military aggression. Russia’s theft of Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula commanded condemnation and economic sanctions from around the world. But as the news coverage moved on, Moscow was left to design a new assault: a 12-mile bridge between Russia’s mainland and Crimea. The Ukrainian people will not watch as Russia continues its creeping annexation of our country. Russia’s attack in the Kerch Strait and the Black Sea on Nov. 25 was not an isolated incident. Since 2014, Russia has regularly violated international rules of navigation and treaties in both those waters and the Sea of Azov. It has stolen our energy supplies and fisheries, harmed Ukrainian livelihoods, and blocked traffic and trade to our ports. This summer, Russia raised the tensions, regularly halting commercial ships destined for Ukrainian ports. Extensive delays can cost each ship as much as $10,000 to $12,000 per day on each leg. Russia is engaging in economic warfare, trying to slowly suffocate our export markets. Russia brought the situation to a head on Nov. 25 as Ukrainian naval boats sought to make their way — legally and peacefully — from the Ukrainian port of Odessa to the Ukrainian port of Mariupol. Let me make clear that despite Russia’s typical efforts to distort the truth, Ukraine’s ships never aggressed Russia’s Navy, never opened fire despite being goaded, were attacked with gunfire and missiles, and were seized while sailing home in international waters.

How much more hostility will it take before the West’s words of concern graduate into the hard currency in which the Kremlin trades — strength? Russia has deployed chemical weapons in Britain; undertaken cyberattacks and hacking attempts across the West; bombed civilians in Syria; fomented a war in Eastern Ukraine that has caused more than 10,000 Ukrainian deaths; and spread disinformation to confuse, anger and frighten citizens around the world. Is now not the time to act? President Trump showed true leadership by canceling his meeting with Mr. Putin at the G-20 in Argentina over Russia’s seizing of Ukrainian ships and sailors. We have enjoyed tangible support from the White House and Congress, including defensive weapons, stronger sanctions and more secure American energy supplies. Together, partners on both sides of the Atlantic can continue to raise the cost to Russia for threatening our collective security. With Crimea and Donbas under occupation, our common task is not to allow Russia to spill its aggression into the Sea of Azov. And an “Azov package of sanctions” against Russia would be the least the world should respond with this time. While the West is speaking, Mr. Putin is acting. It is time to respond.

Petro Poroshenko is the president of Ukraine.

Appeasement never works. It only delays the inevitable and actually greatly exacerbates the inevitable.

And lest we forget.....

 

[Lionman]

Well, I advised you to educate yourself upon it and if you refuse to, I'm not going to do it for you.

So you'll just have to remain ignorant on it.

Says an inhabitant of which zoo?

 

[Lionman]

... Appeasement never works. ...

The Appeasement politics of the Brits was based on the idea to bring Russia and Germany into a war. Without a German-Russian war the British Empire saw no chance to survive. This war had happened, nevertheless the Brits lost their empire.

 

[Lionman]

... There’s plenty Europe should do to push back against Russia’s latest attack on Ukraine.

Why should "Europe" do what? Don't forget Russia is Europe too.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Black Sea standoff reflects Russia’s disregard for global rules, top U.S. military officer says

Where a Russian shell penetrated the bridge of the Ukrainian patrol craft Berdyansk.

12/6/18
Russia’s seizure of Ukrainian naval vessels is a manifestation of its disregard for global rules and intent to test the West, the top U.S. military officer said Thursday. “It says a lot about Russia’s respect of international norms and standards,” Dunford said during a Washington Post Live event. “What took place in the Sea of Azov is consistent with a pattern of behavior that really goes back to Georgia, the Crimea and the Donbass in the Ukraine,” he said, referring to Russia’s steps to assert itself beyond its borders over the past decade. “We refer to this as a competition that falls short of armed conflict, where what the Russians are really doing is testing the international community’s resolve in enforcing the rules that exist, in this case clear violations of sovereignty,” Dunford said. Some sort of international response — which could be exclusively diplomatic and economic — was needed or Russia would continue to take such actions, Dunford said. More than 10,000 people have died in fighting in Ukraine since 2014. While the United States has introduced tough sanctions on Russia, President Trump has embraced the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin. Late last year, the Trump administration approved the sale of certain weaponry including antitank missiles to Ukraine. Today, Dunford said, the Pentagon continues to seek to help Ukraine restructure its defense sector and empower Kiev to defend itself. Dunford said he had not discussed the incident with his counterpart, Valeriy Gerasimov, with whom he speaks periodically.

Just in regard to Ukraine, treaties Russia has broken since 2014.....

■ United Nations Charter (1945)

■ On Transfer of Crimean Region from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR (USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium - February/April 1954)

■ Helsinki Accords (1975)

■ 1977 Soviet Constitution (Brezhnev Constitution)

■ Declaration № 142-Н of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union (1991)

■ Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement) (1991)

■ Alma-Ata Protocol (1991)

■ Joint Russo-Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet Agreement (1992)

■ Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (1994)

■ The Vienna Accord (1994)

■ The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet (1997)

■ Russian-Ukrainian Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership (1997) (Article 2 - Reaffirmed “the inviolability of the existing borders”)

■ Russia and Ukraine Agreement on State Borders (2003)

■ Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine (Kharkiv Pact - 2010)

■ United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 (2014)

■ Minsk Protocol (2014)

■ Minsk II Accord (2015)

■ Agreement between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch.

■ UN Convention on the Law of the Sea

 

[Lionman]

Black Sea standoff reflects Russia’s disregard for global rules, top U.S. military officer says

Where a Russian shell penetrated the bridge of the Ukrainian patrol craft Berdyansk.



Just in regard to Ukraine, treaties Russia has broken since 2014.....

■ United Nations Charter (1945)

■ On Transfer of Crimean Region from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR (USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium - February/April 1954)

■ Helsinki Accords (1975)

■ 1977 Soviet Constitution (Brezhnev Constitution)

■ Declaration № 142-Н of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union (1991)

■ Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement) (1991)

■ Alma-Ata Protocol (1991)

■ Joint Russo-Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet Agreement (1992)

■ Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (1994)

■ The Vienna Accord (1994)

■ The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet (1997)

■ Russian-Ukrainian Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership (1997) (Article 2 - Reaffirmed “the inviolability of the existing borders”)

■ Russia and Ukraine Agreement on State Borders (2003)

■ Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine (Kharkiv Pact - 2010)

■ United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 (2014)

■ Minsk Protocol (2014)

■ Minsk II Accord (2015)

■ Agreement between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch.

■ UN Convention on the Law of the Sea

Only because someone makes a list of important or unimportant papers explains not, why all this problems existed, which needed such papers and why this problems are still not solved. Are you ready to be caged together with a Russian - everyone of you gets a knife - to fight for this papers until the Russian or you is dead? Or do you just simple calculate in your modern smombie-mind when Russia kills Philadelphia then you will kill Nowosibirsk with nukes, so you will climb on a new level in your self programmed "new superpower" game?