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Baidu, Tesla agree on mapping deal for FSD in China, sources say (1 Viewer)

Tesla’s FSD can’t be trusted on our own comparatively simple roads. I doubt it will perform well in China.


Roads in New Chinese cities are very well organized, well marked and great signage.

Better than roads in Canada or US. Rural or smaller older cities in China are poor
 
As a FSD user, I personally find that it works quite well on highways. I was traveling this weekend and it adeptly managed the entire route from our home through 40 miles of highway to the entrance to short term parking at the airport we were flying out of, then back from the airport to our home. The last few hundred feet e.g. parking structures it does not handle well, however. On highways, it lane changes to pass slower traffic, reacts to abrupt slowdowns, can execute an aggressive merge while being courteous with other drivers and generally shows uncannily human behavior. V12 with the fully trained stack is quite impressive.

I am far less comfortable using it on city streets - autonomous turns, even unprotect left turns are handled amazingly well, however lower speed lane merges are frequently botched, particularly with indicated yields. It works, but the cognitive load required of me to supervise it is greater than that I would expend by driving myself.

China is a good use case for them to pursue - many modern roads, high speeds, wildly varying driver experience and excellent maps.

There is no question in my mind that this is the future. I've done a few dozen Waymo rides (fully driver-less) and other than the last 100' not always being elegantly handled, every ride has been flawless.

A key technical challenge in this space is the reliance on maps which is what this deal is about. There are vastly different schools of thought here, from an engineering perspective. One is that the availability of high quality, high resolution maps with indicated features (stop signs, merges, crosswalks etc.) dramatically increase performance... obviously. But, the autonomous system cannot assume that its stored maps are accurate--maps go out of date. So, by choosing to utilize maps, you inherit the engineering problem of having to assess in operation whether the map is accurate and, if not, react accordingly. Without maps, perception of the world is so much more critical, but if you do it properly then the vehicle should enjoy a wider operating envelope including in areas where there are no maps. So... it's an interesting problem. I can think of all sorts of interesting data access problems... where is the mapping data stored? Does Tesla USA have access to it?


I expect that there will be FSD limited to Highways and in well mapped cities. Which will rely on 5G communications between vehicles and road side sensors and cameras. Fully self driving in all conditions is impossible.

Winter storms in Canada I am sure it won't work, especially on highways
 
Here's how autonomous cars cope with just a few cars on a well known and scanned race track.



Fantastic.
 
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You beat me to it. Bucky is probably living in Trump's Glorious Deregulated Future, where in fact you can't sue. "It says in the contract ..."

Oh yes, I’m sure there will be all manner of arbitration and jurisdictional agreements that Tesla purchasers will need to sign. But that only binds the car buyers. If a pedestrian is run over and killed by a Tesla FSD car due to manufacturing defect, that pedestrian’s family can sue Tesla in open court because they never signed an arbitration agreement with the company.
 
Here's how autonomous cars cope with just a few cars on a well known and scanned race track.



Fantastic.


Less of an issue if the cars were communicating with each other sharing sensor data, along with roadside cameras and other sensors.

A system with full fast command will be far more reliable and safe
 
Oh yes, I’m sure there will be all manner of arbitration and jurisdictional agreements that Tesla purchasers will need to sign. But that only binds the car buyers. If a pedestrian is run over and killed by a Tesla FSD car due to manufacturing defect, that pedestrian’s family can sue Tesla in open court because they never signed an arbitration agreement with the company.


I expect the owner of the vehicle will be held responsible, not the manufacturer. The owner could fail to maintain the vehicle leading to the accident
 
I expect the owner of the vehicle will be held responsible, not the manufacturer. The owner could fail to maintain the vehicle leading to the accident

Naturally, that defense can always be raised, but no company wants to get to that point. Barring legislation shielding FSD car Manufacturers from liability (or at least capping liability), I do not see how they escape lawsuits from unrelated third parties injured by the products they manufacture which they claim can be safely driven without human intervention. It would be like saying if you are struck by a bus due to the driver’s negligence your primary cause of action should be against the bus passengers rather than the bus company.
 
Naturally, that defense can always be raised, but no company wants to get to that point. Barring legislation shielding FSD car Manufacturers from liability (or at least capping liability), I do not see how they escape lawsuits from unrelated third parties injured by the products they manufacture which they claim can be safely driven without human intervention. It would be like saying if you are struck by a bus due to the driver’s negligence your primary cause of action should be against the bus passengers rather than the bus company.


It would of course come down to the cause of the accident, which means a data recorder ie black box will be needed. A FSD that suddenly swerved and hits a semi head on because of a software issue is certainly going to be blamed on the manufacturer. A FSD car that was improperly repaired by the owner that hits a person would be the owners fault.

The government will have to set standards for accountability and responsibility, lots of lawsuits will occur in the US over it, which really will mean the US is likely to be the last to have it among developed countries
 
It would of course come down to the cause of the accident, which means a data recorder ie black box will be needed. A FSD that suddenly swerved and hits a semi head on because of a software issue is certainly going to be blamed on the manufacturer. A FSD car that was improperly repaired by the owner that hits a person would be the owners fault.

Well, who does the repairs? If the driver fails to go in for routine maintenance, it is certainly arguable that it is his fault. If the car company demands that drivers do regularly scheduled maintenance of else their FSD features will be disabled, and somehow the driver bypasses this, then certainly: driver's fault.

The government will have to set standards for accountability and responsibility, lots of lawsuits will occur in the US over it, which really will mean the US is likely to be the last to have it among developed countries

Fine by me.
 
Well, who does the repairs? If the driver fails to go in for routine maintenance, it is certainly arguable that it is his fault. If the car company demands that drivers do regularly scheduled maintenance of else their FSD features will be disabled, and somehow the driver bypasses this, then certainly: driver's fault.



Fine by me.


If I recall correctly many new cars with safety features like radar, or cameras for lane keeping require specific windshields and to have the safety features recalibrated when replacing the windshield ( very common in Alberta with gravel used on roads in winter to aid traction).

The driver may replace the windshield with a cheaper option $ 200 vs $ 900 and not get it recalibrated. That may cause thr FSD not to work correctly, certainly the drivers fault
 
Funny but I think of Tesla as a failed EV company whose CEO killed the goose with his pro-Putin silliness. At least in China he can tout that to the govt. as a plus. For the majority of EV buyers here it is poison.

Tesla’s in its flop era

The company’s sales are falling, its stock is dropping, and even its most ardent supporters are stressed about where it’s all heading.
Musk warned of a slowdown, but the steep decline still took a lot of people by surprise. (Ives called it a “disaster.”) Tesla’s sales dropped 13 percent in the first quarter, compared to Q1 in 2023. Meanwhile, its biggest competitors, like BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia, saw EV sales go up by double or even triple-digits. Ford, for example, saw Q1 sales of its battery-electric vehicles rise 86 percent over last year, for a total of 20,223 EVs — although that number dipped 22 percent compared to the fourth quarter of 2023.

https://www.theverge.com/24134781/tesla-q1-2024-earnings-sales-market-share-elon-musk

LOL!

A "failed" EV company that can generate a profit off an EV vehicle compared to Ford, which loses $34k for every EV they make.
 
LOL!

A "failed" EV company that can generate a profit off an EV vehicle compared to Ford, which loses $34k for every EV they make.
Tesla didn't generate profit off of any of the EVs they built until 2019.

And now they're losing ground to other EV manufacturers - some of whom are beginning to show a profit on EVs - on a faster timeline than Tesla - even being union shops.

For someone who claims to be a "long term" investor in Tesla, you should probably know these things.


 
Tesla didn't generate profit off of any of the EVs they built until 2019.

And now they're losing ground to other EV manufacturers - some of whom are beginning to show a profit on EVs - on a faster timeline than Tesla - even being union shops.

For someone who claims to be a "long term" investor in Tesla, you should probably know these things.



When did I say they were profitable before 2019? They nearly went bankrupt.

Tesla is 1-2 years ahead in technology compared to 9/10 other EV manufacturers. They are flush with more cash than nearly every other EV manufacturer.

What is true is that the #2 and #3 players in the US - Ford and GM lose over $30k per for every EV vehicle made.

Saying they are "beginning to show a profit." It is false, and it's based on hopes and wishes that they will become profitable in 2025.

Saying a company is "losing ground" to its competitors is redundant and somewhat pointless. Are you investing in Boeing because they have a duopoly in Jet airliners?

It is irrelevant if Tesla loses market share because the overall addressable market is increasing exponentially yearly.
 
When did I say they were profitable before 2019? They nearly went bankrupt.

Tesla is 1-2 years ahead in technology compared to 9/10 other EV manufacturers. They are flush with more cash than nearly every other EV manufacturer.

What is true is that the #2 and #3 players in the US - Ford and GM lose over $30k per for every EV vehicle made.

Saying they are "beginning to show a profit." It is false, and it's based on hopes and wishes that they will become profitable in 2025.

Saying a company is "losing ground" to its competitors is redundant and somewhat pointless. Are you investing in Boeing because they have a duopoly in Jet airliners?

It is irrelevant if Tesla loses market share because the overall addressable market is increasing exponentially yearly.
Read the articles I posted.

It’s almost like you’re afraid of reality.
 
Roads in New Chinese cities are very well organized, well marked and great signage.

Better than roads in Canada or US. Rural or smaller older cities in China are poor

In 5-10 years I could see Chinese mandate everyone on the road to be driving an EV.
 
Tesla didn't generate profit off of any of the EVs they built until 2019.

And now they're losing ground to other EV manufacturers - some of whom are beginning to show a profit on EVs - on a faster timeline than Tesla - even being union shops.

For someone who claims to be a "long term" investor in Tesla, you should probably know these things.



From your link:

Ford, the only company to break out results separately for electric and traditional vehicles, reported that it lost $4.7 billion in EVs last year, or more than $40,000 per vehicle. General Motors does not break out results for EVs, only saying that it remains on track to become profitable on those vehicles in the second half of this year. Both have pulled back on production plans for EVs in recent months.

Stellantis, which makes vehicles at its US plants under the Jeep, Ram, Chrysler and Dodge brands, has been selling EVs in Europe, but will introduce its first EVs to the US market this year.

Traveras said it’s possible the company’s string of record profits will eventually end as it shifts more to EVs from traditional internal combustion engines (ICE), although he said that “I’m quite confident that 2024 will be better than 2023,” when the company had to contend with a six-week strike at its US operations. But he said that EVs, while profitable, are still not as profitable as traditional gas-powered vehicles.


Tesla is a classic example of counter-positioning.

Its the equivalent of how Netflix demolished Blockbuster.
 
In 5-10 years I could see Chinese mandate everyone on the road to be driving an EV.

Approximately 50% of new passenger vehicles being sold in China are EVs now if I recall correctly
 
Read the articles I posted.

It’s almost like you’re afraid of reality.

The reality is that you are predicting, based on the opinion of "experts," that Tesla will decline and probably go bankrupt.

That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. For the past 13 years, most experts have been wrong about Tesla.

I am guessing, though, that you're opinion is colored because you dislike Elon Musk.
 
Tesla didn't generate profit off of any of the EVs they built until 2019.

And now they're losing ground to other EV manufacturers - some of whom are beginning to show a profit on EVs - on a faster timeline than Tesla - even being union shops.

For someone who claims to be a "long term" investor in Tesla, you should probably know these things.




Outside of some Chinese companies no one but Tesla is making a profit on EVs currently.

It's EVs on average have the best range in the US and Europe and are priced very competitively even compared to ICE vehicles ( ie premium market)

A bad quarter is not a threat to Tesla, especially when it is getting a few billion a year in carbon tax credits from the other companies in the US.

Not that I like Musk or will buy a Tesla or an EV anytime soon. ( heck I still think it is grossly overvalued as a company]
 
Outside of some Chinese companies no one but Tesla is making a profit on EVs currently.

It's EVs on average have the best range in the US and Europe and are priced very competitively even compared to ICE vehicles ( ie premium market)

A bad quarter is not a threat to Tesla, especially when it is getting a few billion a year in carbon tax credits from the other companies in the US.

Not that I like Musk or will buy a Tesla or an EV anytime soon. ( heck I still think it is grossly overvalued as a company]

What you are seeing is a lot of people who are used to talking about political topics trying to project their anger and hatred toward Elon Musk into Tesla as a business.

You can copy and paste many negative talking points on Telsa from five years ago. It's the same BS from 2017 to 2019.
 
What you are seeing is a lot of people who are used to talking about political topics trying to project their anger and hatred toward Elon Musk into Tesla as a business.

You can copy and paste many negative talking points on Telsa from five years ago. It's the same BS from 2017 to 2019.


To be honest I was expecting Tesla to go bankrupt back in 2017 and it surprised me with the success of the Model 3, especially the very good pricing on that model.

It certainly does a very good job engineering most of its products
 
Outside of some Chinese companies no one but Tesla is making a profit on EVs currently.
I wouldnt trust what the Chinese say with a 10 foot pole. Theres plenty of accounts about mountains of unsold EVs rotting away in China.
 
I wouldnt trust what the Chinese say with a 10 foot pole. Theres plenty of accounts about mountains of unsold EVs rotting away in China.


Yes given the number of companies that rushed into the market, the fast pace advancement of the products, the number of outdated products produced will be huge.


Given that, they have reduced the costs to produce batteries drastically as they have achieved scale production. LFP batteries have less expensive raw materials, and are quite efficient in general. Out of all the Chinese companies making EV which likely number over 20 when considering JV as separate companies at most 3 are making money
 

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