Baidu, Tesla agree on mapping deal for FSD in China, sources say (1 Viewer)

[Bucky]

China's major internet search company, reached an agreement with Tesla (TSLA.O), opens new tab to grant the car company access to its mapping license for data collection on China's public roads, two people familiar with the matter said.
The deal clears a final regulatory hurdle for Tesla's driver assistance system, which Tesla calls Full Self Driving (FSD), to be offered in China, the sources said.

As part of the deal, Baidu would also provide its lane-level navigation system to Tesla, they said.

The deal was struck recently and comes as Tesla CEO Elon Musk's visit to China and met with Premier Li Qiang. Musk is seeking approvals for the FSD software rollout in China and the permissions to transfer data overseas during his meetings with Chinese officials.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/baidu-tesla-agree-mapping-deal-fsd-china-sources-say-2024-04-29/

FSD is coming, and coming fast. Tesla will be the leader in this industry. As Mr. Musk said last week: "Tesla is not just a car company, we should be thought of as an A.I. robotics company.”

Even a communist nation like China will not stand in the way of the inevitable of what will happen.

 

[Felis Leo]

https://www.reuters.com/technology/baidu-tesla-agree-mapping-deal-fsd-china-sources-say-2024-04-29/

FSD is coming, and coming fast. Tesla will be the leader in this industry. As Mr. Musk said last week: "Tesla is not just a car company, we should be thought of as an A.I. robotics company.”

Even a communist nation like China will not stand in the way of the inevitable of what will happen.

It makes sense to start that technology in China. If your Communist Party-approved FSD cars kill people in China, you can only be sued if the Communist Party allows you to be. In the United States, if your FSD cars injure or kill people or destroy property, your company can be sued into bankruptcy here.

 

[Ug make hammer]

FSD and China are a perfect match. The CCP provides what Musk needs most: a corrupt regulatory system where it's practically impossible for injured drivers (or their surviving relatives) to sue. While Musk provides American dollars.

 

[Ug make hammer]

It makes sense to start that technology in China. If your Communist Party-approved FSD cars kill people in China, you can only be sued if the Communist Party allows you to be. In the United States, if your FSD cars injure or kill people or destroy property, your company can be sued into bankruptcy here.

You beat me to it. Bucky is probably living in Trump's Glorious Deregulated Future, where in fact you can't sue. "It says in the contract ..."

 

[Bucky]

FSD and China are a perfect match. The CCP provides what Musk needs most: a corrupt regulatory system where it's practically impossible for injured drivers (or their surviving relatives) to sue. While Musk provides American dollars.

It will happen in the United States, with or without regulatory approval.

Uber grew quickly in the past decade before it got regulatory approval. I

 

[Napoleon]

Tesla’s FSD can’t be trusted on our own comparatively simple roads. I doubt it will perform well in China.

 

[Ug make hammer]

It will happen in the United States, with or without regulatory approval.

How many years has Musk been selling cars with a self-driving "option" and promising to turn it on some day?

He's using Chinese people for his research and development, because they can't sue anyone backed by the COMMUNIST government. To you that's a victory for the free market, somehow.

A truly free market protects consumers, because they're disadvantaged in the market otherwise.

 

[Bucky]

How many years has Musk been selling cars with a self-driving "option" and promising to turn it on some day?

He's using Chinese people for his research and development, because they can't sue anyone backed by the COMMUNIST government. To you that's a victory for the free market, somehow.

A truly free market protects consumers, because they're disadvantaged in the market otherwise.

It already exists. You act like the technology doesn't:

Self-Driving Car Technology for a Reliable Ride - Waymo Driver

The Waymo Driver is our self-driving car technology. Get a safe, reliable ride from The World's Most Experienced Driver.

waymo.com

 

[Peter]

I'll be retired before self driving cars get regulatory approval in the UK.

 

[Peter]

It will happen in the United States, with or without regulatory approval.

Uber grew quickly in the past decade before it got regulatory approval. I

Erm, they can't sell self driving cars in the US without the approval of the government.

 

[Peter]

It already exists. You act like the technology doesn't:

Self-Driving Car Technology for a Reliable Ride - Waymo Driver

The Waymo Driver is our self-driving car technology. Get a safe, reliable ride from The World's Most Experienced Driver.

waymo.com

This tech would last about 10 seconds on the roads of London before crashing.

 

[phoenix2020]

As a FSD user, I personally find that it works quite well on highways. I was traveling this weekend and it adeptly managed the entire route from our home through 40 miles of highway to the entrance to short term parking at the airport we were flying out of, then back from the airport to our home. The last few hundred feet e.g. parking structures it does not handle well, however. On highways, it lane changes to pass slower traffic, reacts to abrupt slowdowns, can execute an aggressive merge while being courteous with other drivers and generally shows uncannily human behavior. V12 with the fully trained stack is quite impressive.

I am far less comfortable using it on city streets - autonomous turns, even unprotect left turns are handled amazingly well, however lower speed lane merges are frequently botched, particularly with indicated yields. It works, but the cognitive load required of me to supervise it is greater than that I would expend by driving myself.

China is a good use case for them to pursue - many modern roads, high speeds, wildly varying driver experience and excellent maps.

There is no question in my mind that this is the future. I've done a few dozen Waymo rides (fully driver-less) and other than the last 100' not always being elegantly handled, every ride has been flawless.

A key technical challenge in this space is the reliance on maps which is what this deal is about. There are vastly different schools of thought here, from an engineering perspective. One is that the availability of high quality, high resolution maps with indicated features (stop signs, merges, crosswalks etc.) dramatically increase performance... obviously. But, the autonomous system cannot assume that its stored maps are accurate--maps go out of date. So, by choosing to utilize maps, you inherit the engineering problem of having to assess in operation whether the map is accurate and, if not, react accordingly. Without maps, perception of the world is so much more critical, but if you do it properly then the vehicle should enjoy a wider operating envelope including in areas where there are no maps. So... it's an interesting problem. I can think of all sorts of interesting data access problems... where is the mapping data stored? Does Tesla USA have access to it?

 

[Bucky]

This tech would last about 10 seconds on the roads of London before crashing.

The UK isn't a leader in innovative technology, period.

 

[phoenix2020]

This tech would last about 10 seconds on the roads of London before crashing.

Having done a decent amount of both, driving in London isn't terribly more complicated than driving in San Francisco, I think it's about the same. Like London, an autonomous vehicle in SF has to navigate bus and trolley lanes, ridiculous congestion, short-tempered drivers and random pedestrians and bicyclists all over the place. A Waymo handles this with aplomb and I would expect it to do well in London with a similar amount of training.

 

[Peter]

Having done a decent amount of both, driving in London isn't terribly more complicated than driving in San Francisco, I think it's about the same. Like London, an autonomous vehicle in SF has to navigate bus and trolley lanes, ridiculous congestion, short-tempered drivers and random pedestrians and bicyclists all over the place. A Waymo handles this with aplomb and I would expect it to do well in London with a similar amount of training.

As with everything it will have to get past the strict UK regulations for autonomous vehicles.
Various companies have been trying for decades with no success and the only thing that has been given permission is small delivery robots in some cities.

I have zero faith I'm going to be calling for a driverless taxi any time soon.

 

[Peter]

The UK isn't a leader in innovative technology, period.

Erm?
Seriously?
We have some of the best universities and places of innovation on Earth.

Saying the UK isn't good at innovation is about as stupid as me claiming the US army is a bunch of wimps and the British army could kick their arses at boxing.

The UK has a long and illustious list of innovations going back to the industrial revolution which started where again?
Ih yeah, it was the UK where we don't do innovation.

 

[phoenix2020]

As with everything it will have to get past the strict UK regulations for autonomous vehicles.
Various companies have been trying for decades with no success and the only thing that has been given permission is small delivery robots in some cities.

I have zero faith I'm going to be calling for a driverless taxi any time soon.

Cool story but what does any of it have to do with your claim that they would crash in 10 seconds in London?

 

[Peter]

Cool story but what does any of it have to do with your claim that they would crash in 10 seconds in London?

London traffic is an utter shitshow.
You couldn't pay me to drive in London and a friend of mine used to live in Batersea in central London and never had a car the entire time he lived there.

Trust me, it's not good and it was recently revealed to have the slowest city traffic in the entire world.

I'd rather walk.

 

[phoenix2020]

London traffic is an utter shitshow.
You couldn't pay me to drive in London and a friend of mine used to live in Batersea in central London and never had a car the entire time he lived there.

Trust me, it's not good and it was recently revealed to have the slowest city traffic in the entire world.

I'd rather walk.

Super cool story and all but what does any of it have to do with your claim that autonomous vehicles would crash in 10 seconds?

 

[Peter]

Super cool story and all but what does any of it have to do with your claim that autonomous vehicles would crash in 10 seconds?

Because there are so many variables the system has to cope with and I have zero confidence it can.
Being able to drive in a lab or small town is one thing but driving in a place like London is quite another.

If the system is working now why isn't it being tested?

 

[iguanaman]

https://www.reuters.com/technology/baidu-tesla-agree-mapping-deal-fsd-china-sources-say-2024-04-29/

FSD is coming, and coming fast. Tesla will be the leader in this industry. As Mr. Musk said last week: "Tesla is not just a car company, we should be thought of as an A.I. robotics company.”

Even a communist nation like China will not stand in the way of the inevitable of what will happen.

Funny but I think of Tesla as a failed EV company whose CEO killed the goose with his pro-Putin silliness. At least in China he can tout that to the govt. as a plus. For the majority of EV buyers here it is poison.

Tesla’s in its flop era​

The company’s sales are falling, its stock is dropping, and even its most ardent supporters are stressed about where it’s all heading.
Musk warned of a slowdown, but the steep decline still took a lot of people by surprise. (Ives called it a “disaster.”) Tesla’s sales dropped 13 percent in the first quarter, compared to Q1 in 2023. Meanwhile, its biggest competitors, like BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia, saw EV sales go up by double or even triple-digits. Ford, for example, saw Q1 sales of its battery-electric vehicles rise 86 percent over last year, for a total of 20,223 EVs — although that number dipped 22 percent compared to the fourth quarter of 2023.

https://www.theverge.com/24134781/tesla-q1-2024-earnings-sales-market-share-elon-musk

 

[phoenix2020]

Because there are so many variables the system has to cope with and I have zero confidence it can.
Being able to drive in a lab or small town is one thing but driving in a place like London is quite another.

If the system is working now why isn't it being tested?

I see, it was something that you made up. Got it. That’s okay, there will always be “that dude” afraid of change they don’t understand and thus invent fictions (“it’ll crash every 10 seconds” “drive in a lab”) when these things are driving daily without crashes in far more complex environments than London, like major large cities with a great deal of complexity that you’ve never been to and could not possibly understand.

 

[Peter]

I see, it was something that you made up. Got it. That’s okay, there will always be “that dude” afraid of change they don’t understand and thus invent fictions (“it’ll crash every 10 seconds” “drive in a lab”) when these things are driving daily without crashes in far more complex environments than London, like major large cities with a great deal of complexity that you’ve never been to and could not possibly understand.

They haven't even started the regulatory process in Europe yet.
It's going to take decades at the very least.

How exactly can I not understand how other cities traffic works?
Where are driverless cars driving and how does the insurance work?
Who can I sue if one crashes into me?

 

[iguanaman]

I see, it was something that you made up. Got it. That’s okay, there will always be “that dude” afraid of change they don’t understand and thus invent fictions (“it’ll crash every 10 seconds” “drive in a lab”) when these things are driving daily without crashes in far more complex environments than London, like major large cities with a great deal of complexity that you’ve never been to and could not possibly understand.

The way I see it is that a car is not self driving if it has a steering wheel so we should stop debating about whether they are safe or not. If you car has a steering wheel and you get into an accident it is your fault period and you cannot blame the "driver assist".

 

[phoenix2020]

The way I see it is that a car is not self driving if it has a steering wheel so we should stop debating about whether they are safe or not. If you car has a steering wheel and you get into an accident it is your fault period and you cannot blame the "driver assist".

True for Tesla FSD.

Not the case for the Waymo vehicles I take regularly here in the Bay Area. They have no drivers. They work quite well.