Average Federal Employee Compensation tops $126,000

[Simon W. Moon]

What is included in federal government employee compensation?

http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/01/report-military-paid-more-than-federal-workers/

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12042/01-20-Compensation.pdf

 

[cpwill]

yeah I saw that. the first thing that sprung out at me was the way they calculated the Barracks - by simply figuring it as the equivalent of BAH. that's a joke. In the Barracks, you are sharing a room roughly the size of an economy hotel room with another member, and they are considering that as financially greater than a two bedroom apartment. I also note they count the potential tax advantages for the military but not the civilian workforce (though to be fair, opportunities for tax advantage are far greater for military personnel - when you are in a combat zone, for example, your pay is exempt from federal income tax).

:shrug: here's what I know. I've posted my numbers above. I have multiple offers for greater that twice that waiting for me in the civilian world, and if I went to work in the civilian federal force I would probably make half-again.

 

[Kandahar]

your damn right this belongs in the scandal section.



meanwhile, Joe Schmoe on the street (assuming he has a job in this crappy economy) is making half as much... and yet these people are supported by him?

who is ruling who, here? at what point did "public service" become "served by the public"?

I haven't read through this thread, so I'll assume that it's already been pointed out that the average federal employee is probably a bit more skilled than the average Wal-Mart greeter, and so should be paid more. I'll assume that it's also been pointed out that federal employees disproportionately live in the DC area, which has a higher cost of living than most parts of the country and therefore needs to pay higher wages to lure people to those jobs.

But from my personal experience (as a private sector consultant for the federal government), most of the federal workers here are earning less than their equally-skilled counterparts in the private sector. Several of my clients have offered me the option to "go native" and work for their agencies...but I always turn them down because I'm making a lot more money in the private sector than I could working directly for the government, even when you take benefits into account.

That's not to say that there aren't some overcompensated federal employees. I'll shed no tears if the government decides to stomp a new asshole in the public sector unions. But in general it isn't a big problem here. DC is the highest-paid metro area because we are one of the best-educated metro areas. It's really as simple as that.

 

[cpwill]

I haven't read through this thread, so I'll assume that it's already been pointed out that the average federal employee is probably a bit more skilled than the average Wal-Mart greeter, and so should be paid more.

yup; and it was pointed out that once that was accounted for, they still were paid 22% more, though I forget the return on benefits.

I'll assume that it's also been pointed out that federal employees disproportionately live in the DC area, which has a higher cost of living than most parts of the country and therefore needs to pay higher wages to lure people to those jobs.

it hasn't, actually - but it is a good point.

But from my personal experience (as a private sector consultant for the federal government), most of the federal workers here are earning less than their equally-skilled counterparts in the private sector

the breakdown seems to be that highly qualified persons earn less than their private sector counterparts, while lower qualified persons earn more. If I go into gov service after this I'd probably enter as a G-11, G-12ish (mostly guessing there); whereas if I went into public service my pay would be 120 right off the bat.

Several of my clients have offered me the option to "go native" and work for their agencies...but I always turn them down because I'm making a lot more money in the private sector than I could working directly for the government, even when you take benefits into account.

That's not to say that there aren't some overcompensated federal employees. I'll shed no tears if the government decides to stomp a new asshole in the public sector unions. But in general it isn't a big problem here. DC is the highest-paid metro area because we are one of the best-educated metro areas. It's really as simple as that.

eh. There are alot of unnecessary jobs in the DC area that pull up the Federal Average. Political Appointees who sit right across the hall from the Agency/Department administrator who have roughly the same job billet, making just as much, but with less experience, and so they aren't expected to produce nearly as much (as an example, before we even get into the topic of whether or not it is "necessary" that government be doing X, Y, or Z in the first place).

 

[haymarket]

CP - sadly, your posts which attack civilian federal employees while defending military employees reek of you defending your own job status, your own self interest and your own personal situation.

The central 'principle' which clearly emerges is your own self interest is "good" while the rest is "bad".

 

[cpwill]

CP - sadly, your posts which attack civilian federal employees while defending military employees reek of you defending your own job status, your own self interest and your own personal situation.

actually you will note that I have called for my pay to be frozen and my insurance to be replaced with an HSA as well as supporting replacing our military pension system with a 401(k).


And so it looks like your charge is bunk I'm in the military to serve the nation, not to have the nation serve me. Though I can understand why a public sector union representative may have difficulty grasping that concept.

 

[haymarket]

We all serve the people who work for the government.

Your pay freeze gesture is a hollow one.

What is good for you is what you value. If it does not benefit you directly - then you criticize it and condemn it. We can all see what principle is involved in your posts.

 

[cpwill]

We all serve the people who work for the government.

I wish that were correct - many of our "public servants" seem to have quite the opposite impression about their relationship to the public.

Your pay freeze gesture is a hollow one.

interesting. you accuse me of only arguing in favor of my own self interest, and then when I point out that I have in fact consistently applied my standards even when it was against my self interest, you declare those arguments to be "hollow".

What is good for you is what you value. If it does not benefit you directly - then you criticize it and condemn it. We can all see what principle is involved in your posts.

what I value, what my principle is, is of effective, limited governance that serves a sovereign people. I'm not sure what "what is good for you is what you value" is supposed to mean in this context; methinks you are attempting to wiggle out of the fact that it turned out you were embarrassingly wrong in your accusations of hypocrisy.

not all people are public union folks, haymarket some of us really are public servants. no, really.

 

[haymarket]

It is an empty gesture that pretends to make you look good but has no effect or impact of any kind. In the end, what we are left with, is promoting you and attacking the right enemies of public employees and unions. The rest is just lipstick on a pig.

 

[cpwill]

It is an empty gesture that pretends to make you look good but has no effect or impact of any kind

what - and me calling for the alignment of civilian federal employees in this thread will have an impact?

what, because policy makers are breathlessly waiting to see what cpwill will post next? CNN is going to pick up this thread and tweet it?

........ President Obama, are you reading this right now???

:roll:

you're reaching. you're really reaching.

and you are apparently unable to see the difference between anything that is in contradiction with your own personal self-interest, and evil.

 

[pbrauer]

CP - sadly, your posts which attack civilian federal employees while defending military employees reek of you defending your own job status, your own self interest and your own personal situation.

The central 'principle' which clearly emerges is your own self interest is "good" while the rest is "bad".

You need to compare specific jobs between government and private. For example, I think if you compare the compensation of a particular scientist you'll find private employees are compensated far more for the same job.

Averages don't mean ****. Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.

 

[dontworrybehappy]

You need to compare specific jobs between government and private. For example, I think if you compare the compensation of a particular scientist you'll find private employees are compensated far more for the same job.

Averages don't mean ****. Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.

I hate to say it, but you are right. Petroleum engineers, for example, make far more in the private sector than the do in the public. But.....the benefits received are much greater with the govt and the job security that comes with a gov't job can't be put onto paper it's worth in money. My father has been working as a petroleum engineer for the gov't for 42 years and he told me he could have been making far more in the private sector, but worked for the gov't for the time off.

 

[Sig]

THESE are the excesses we should be protesting against. I can't even imagine their pensions. Oh, wait, I can:



So, the $50K peons carry their public servants on their backs. Thank you, Congress.

What you need to be looking at is how much our federal, state, and local governments GROSSLY OVERPAY for whatever goods and services they purchase from the private sector.

Why should the cost of a widget suddenly go up when it is sold to the government? This is what the mass news media rarely informs Joe Schmoe about because the major news media are owned by some of the same private entitites that have sweetheart contracts with the government.

Nevermind what the average civil servant gets paid in terms of salary and benefits. It is a mere pittance compared to what the private sector gets paid by the government for providing (often substandard) goods and services at three to five times fair market value.

The degree to which Medicaid is blatantly ripped off (thus, artifically driving up the cost of healthcare) is enough to give you an embolism.

 

[TurtleDude]

it depends.

for example, if you take DOJ attorneys, and those who are working as federal judges, and the career and temporary (like USSC clerks) law clerks, you tend to have people who have done very well in good law schools and could be making a lot more in the private sector. The advantages of federal service is 1) security 2) not having to generate clients
3) and not having to keep track of "billable hours" at the same rate of detail as the private sector

some of the other government law jobs can attract very good people (like those in agencies that require sophisticated legal counsel such as the SEC) while others are not getting people that wall street would like. Indeed, while the Bush Justice Department's line attorneys at main Justice and the US attorney's office were very very good, some of the policy makers were those clowns from fourth rate but predictably conservative law schools like REGENTS (WTF?)

other federal or quasi federal jobs might differ

those working in the post office have far better benefits compared to similarly situated workers at FEDEX or DHL or "big brown"

many top managers don't have college degrees at the same level as similarly compensated managers in private business but in all fairness, some of the top managers don't need them

as far as law enforcement agencies go, some agencies get really good people. some don't. the hierarchy tends to go FBI, USMS, DEA, Postal Inspectors, IRS crim, and below that the ATF. of course there are exceptions. USMS is full of ex special forces people

there really aren't too many private sector counterparts for that

 

[cpwill]

You need to compare specific jobs between government and private. For example, I think if you compare the compensation of a particular scientist you'll find private employees are compensated far more for the same job.

that's correct. highly skilled and qualified employees tend to be comparatively undercompensated, but low-skilled and qualified tend to be very overcompensated

 

[Sig]

The heading of this thread is so misleading that it is shameful.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

that's correct. highly skilled and qualified employees tend to be comparatively undercompensated, but low-skilled and qualified tend to be very overcompensated

I would expect that at the federal level most of the low skilled postions will have been outsourced. Janitorial, security positions I expect are outsourced, along with food services. Even the TSA is engaging in outsourcing.

I doubt these positions are counted in the study leading to a higher average then would truely be the case

 

[Sig]

I would expect that at the federal level most of the low skilled postions will have been outsourced. Janitorial, security positions I expect are outsourced, along with food services. Even the TSA is engaging in outsourcing.

I doubt these positions are counted in the study leading to a higher average then would truely be the case

They are not. The OP is maliciously implying in his title that $126k is the average salary for a federal employee when it is not even close. He damn well knows this but does not care a whit that he is misleading the casual viewer, who might raise an eyebrow upon reading the title of the thread but not take the time to thoroughly digest the actual content of his post. It is disgraceful and irresponsible blogging at its worst, which is why you will not see him even attempt to defend himself against my criticism, except to maybe offer some pathetic apology about "the end justifying the means."

 

[cpwill]

They are not. The OP is maliciously implying in his title that $126k is the average salary for a federal employee when it is not even close

interesting that you say that when the TITLE says COMPENSATION, and the OP makes the specific point of comparing federal COMPENSATION to private COMPENSATION.

interesting, too, that you would accuse others of misleading when it is your own post that seems to look over these inconveniencies....

I would expect that at the federal level most of the low skilled postions will have been outsourced.

and fire federal employees?!? what universe do you inhabit? Not even Republicans - not even Ron Paul is calling for this.

 

[American]

Yeah, quibbling over numbers doesn't really make a difference IMO. It's widely known that the average public sector worker is better compensated than the average private sector worker. The real question is, why is that the case, and should anything be done about it.

Professions and location have to be considered....not just general averages. Private sector has more ditch-diggers that will reduce the private sector average.

 

[iliveonramen]

Professions and location have to be considered....not just general averages. Private sector has more ditch-diggers that will reduce the private sector average.

I agree....to make the case that government employees are overpaid use the correct numbers.

From everything I've seen the "ditch digger" is overcompensated but the lawyers/statisticians etc are generally paid well below their private counterparts. On general government employees are more educated than the regular population and are generally providing white collar services.

 

[American]

interesting that you say that when the TITLE says COMPENSATION, and the OP makes the specific point of comparing federal COMPENSATION to private COMPENSATION.

interesting, too, that you would accuse others of misleading when it is your own post that seems to look over these inconveniencies....



and fire federal employees?!? what universe do you inhabit? Not even Republicans - not even Ron Paul is calling for this.

Outsourcing was tried, and I believe it was determined to be somewhat of a failure. The influx of federal jobs you see now is basically a reversal of what was started under Bush 41.

 

[iliveonramen]

Outsourcing was tried, and I believe it was determined to be somewhat of a failure. The influx of federal jobs you see now is basically a reversal of what was started under Bush 41.

Once again I agree. There's the main question of "do private organizations really do it more efficienty". I think that's been disproven in a lot of cases. In the cases of yes....efficiently enough to offset the costs of whatever government entity is making sure they are providing the services asked for and not defauding the government.

A co-worker of mine use to run statistics for a very large "non-profit" insurance firm that primarily handled Medicaid/Medicare cases. He was paid over 6 figures to find ways to either bilk the government or ways to turn away people that cost the company money. The company would provide information and classes on elderly women on how to preven hip fractures. The idea was that if you prevent it they can save some money. I don't know the details but after running the data he learned they actually make more when an elderly woman fractures their hip (dunno the details) the company quickly cut it's information systems on prevention.

Just crazy stuff like that, it obviously doesn't save the government money to pay for hip replacement but the company somehow made some nice reimbursement money off it. Definately ineffecient.

 

[Sidgaf]

Job Title:Custodial Worker

Department Department of the Army
Agency:HQDA Field Operating Agencies and Staff Support Agencies
Job Announcement Number:SCNAFAQ1107OC
SALARY RANGE: $9.00 to $10.00 / Per Hour
OPEN PERIOD: Friday, January 07, 2011 to Saturday, December 31, 2011
SERIES & GRADE: NA-3566-02
POSITION INFORMATION: Multiple Schedules - - Permanent
DUTY LOCATIONS: many vacancy(s) - VA-Fort Lee
USAJOBS - Search Jobs

so much for that 126k a year

 

[TurtleDude]

Job Title:Custodial Worker

Department Department of the Army
Agency:HQDA Field Operating Agencies and Staff Support Agencies
Job Announcement Number:SCNAFAQ1107OC
SALARY RANGE: $9.00 to $10.00 / Per Hour
OPEN PERIOD: Friday, January 07, 2011 to Saturday, December 31, 2011
SERIES & GRADE: NA-3566-02
POSITION INFORMATION: Multiple Schedules - - Permanent
DUTY LOCATIONS: many vacancy(s) - VA-Fort Lee
USAJOBS - Search Jobs

so much for that 126k a year

Yeah I was sort of skeptical about those numbers given that you have to be in the GS-13 range to even approach that level (and that includes non-salary benefits) and for every GS-13 and above (GS goes to 15, then you get Senior Executive Services, in the Post office its EAS 26 and then above you have their version of the SES)

your average secretary at say the DOE or the FBI etc is making in the 45K range at a GS 5,7,9 range