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Aunt Jemima will remove image and be renamed

Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Nancy Green is dead. Aunt Jemima iconography is a racist stereotype. It's somewhat bizarre that this is so hard for privileged white people to understand. However, I am not surprised. The same idiots argued that Sambos wasn't racist in nature.

It's not racist iconography. Your argument falls apart from there.

Racism lost all meaning as soon as the idiotic pearl clutching, fainting couch, white savior class decided that racism didn't require a pejorative, and that their ideology that denies the existence of minority agency is not, at its roots, racist.
 
No you are wrong. I'm not sure there's any help for you.

I realize that all you have at your disposal is "Nuh-uh!!", so I'll leave you to it, "Master Debator". :lamo
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

It's not racist iconography. Your argument falls apart from there.

Racism lost all meaning as soon as the idiotic pearl clutching, fainting couch, white savior class decided that racism didn't require a pejorative, and that their ideology that denies the existence of minority agency is not, at its roots, racist.

Like I said.

Nancy Green is dead. Aunt Jemima iconography is a racist stereotype. It's somewhat bizarre that this is so hard for privileged white people to understand. However, I am not surprised. The same idiots argued that Sambos wasn't racist in nature.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Like I said.

The fact that you said it is inversely correlated to the statement being intelligent and well thought through.
 
I realize that all you have at your disposal is "Nuh-uh!!", so I'll leave you to it, "Master Debator". :lamo

And all you have is yea huh. If you had a more sophisticated argument maybe it would be worth responding in kind.
 
And all you have is yea huh. If you had a more sophisticated argument maybe it would be worth responding in kind.

Well, no, I've made my argument. You haven't made yours beyond "Nuh uh!".
 
Well, no, I've made my argument. You haven't made yours beyond "Nuh uh!".

You made a declarative statement that foreign wars and prisons were progressive policies. That's not so much an argument as it is your own personal delusion.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Sooo...since when are Democrats progressive? At best they are centrist, with a few progressives thrown in for lack of anywhere else to go. I dig the passion and the edge, but you're not exactly on topic. :)

Oh, I see. Can you point me to the "Progressive Party" website and introduce me to their candidate for President?

Oh wait, we have a situation....
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

I don't hate people of any color.

See how easy that is?

When someone asks you a loaded question the wrong answer is "prove it!". :lamo

Sure you don't.

Cool story, bruh.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Mammy archetype in the United States - Wikipedia
A mammy, also spelled mammie,[2] is a U.S. stereotype, especially in the South, for a black woman who worked in a white family and nursed the family's children.[3] The mammy figure is rooted in the history of slavery in the United States. Enslaved black females were tasked with domestic and childcare work in white American enslaver households.

Aunt Jemima - Wikipedia
The Aunt Jemima character is based on the enslaved "Mammy" archetype.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Sure you don't.

Cool story, bruh.

I realize that the Democrat hate machine requires that you view your world through projection... but voicing your ignorance doesn't make it any truer.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

I realize that the Democrat hate machine requires that you view your world through projection... but voicing your ignorance doesn't make it any truer.

I'm not a democrat.

Why do you hate non-white people to your bitter core?
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

I realize that the Democrat hate machine requires that you view your world through projection... but voicing your ignorance doesn't make it any truer.

Hate...would that not be the person dying on the hill of defending the horrible iconography of Aunt Jemima, a clearly racist stereotype?

Aunt Jemima is based on the common enslaved "Mammy" archetype, a plump black woman wearing a headscarf who is a devoted and submissive servant.[8][9] Her skin is dark and dewy, with a pearly white smile. Although depictions vary over time, they are similar to the common attire and physical features of "mammy" characters throughout history.[10][11][12][13][14]

The term "Aunt" in this context was a southern form of address used with older enslaved peoples. They were denied use of courtesy titles.[15] A character named "Aunt Jemima" appeared on the stage in Washington, D.C., as early as 1864.[16]

Rutt's inspiration for Aunt Jemima was Billy Kersands' American-style minstrelsy/vaudeville song "Old Aunt Jemima", written in 1875. Rutt reportedly saw a minstrel show featuring the "Old Aunt Jemima" song in the fall of 1889, presented by blackface performers identified by Arthur F. Marquette as "Baker & Farrell".[4] Marquette recounts that the actor playing Aunt Jemima wore an apron and kerchief.[4][15]

or

...Rutt might have witnessed a performance by the vaudeville performer Pete F. Baker, who played characters described in newspapers of that era as "Ludwig" and "Aunt Jemima". His portrayal of the Aunt Jemima character may have been a white male in blackface, pretending to be a German immigrant, imitating a black minstrel parodying an imaginary black female slave cook.

Either way, it's a marketing campaign playing on the happy "house negro" stereotype. And that, no matter how you slice it, is mighty ****ed up.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Oh, I see. Can you point me to the "Progressive Party" website and introduce me to their candidate for President?

Oh wait, we have a situation....

Sorry, I'm trying really hard here, but I'm not actually understanding what point you have to make, if any. We were talking about progressives when you jumped in with the whole edgelord routine... Do you have anything to say about progressives, or do you want to talk about the Democratic Party? Your confusion is confusing.
 
@OlNate:

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Below are responses to some specific points.

The only way that changing a syrup label will exacerbate these problems is if folks intentionally attached a previously nonexistent level of importance to those labels, to where their loss would drive them to outrage.
I certainly agree that eliminating a few dated product icons isn't going to cause a monumental shift in society. It's a minor issue.

My specific grievance with it, as stated earlier, is that it's a red flag: it makes a statement about the state of mind of many black Americans, and likewise about the corporate reactions to demands made in this state of mind. You consider this state of mind to be the desire for equity and justice, and moreover consider these corporate reactions to be progress.

I agree that a desire for equity is a component of the state of mind, but only one among many, and the other components are not so benign. Also a part of the mix: hatred, desire for retribution, ethnic nationalism and ethnocentrism, uncontrolled anger, iconoclasm, frustration, self-righteousness, self-interest, a distinct "us versus them" attitude; refusal to forgive, or see good, or to be placated, or to seek peace. All these are an integral part of the movement, "baked into" it just as surely as the desire for equity.

I'm moreover convinced that appeasement, even as minor as the scrubbing of dated films, cartoons, black characters, etc., is not the proper response to demands made in this state. Not only does appeasement validate the sentiments above, it exacerbates them. It deepens resentment, and magnifies self-righteousness and anger, in large part because it does nothing to fix the injustices or inequities, old or new, that bred these sentiments.

History is history. Wiping out characters like Aunt Jemima---a perfectly familiar, consistent brand, rich in history both good and bad---for no reason other than it reminds a handful of historians and agitators of ancient wrongs, is craven. It's petty. Even if the brand itself had no value at all, paving over it as a matter of appeasement will make things worse rather than better. Everything I know about human nature points to this conclusion.

We don't talk about all the times our pizza delivery guy gets the order right, but we sure do bitch when they get it wrong. Why hold the people we arm and pay to protect us to at least the same standard we hold our pizza guy?
I'm not saying I approve of police shirking their duties. I don't. I wish they wouldn't. Even so, their delinquency is a predictable consequence of the criticism and aggression they're facing.

If I was a pizza guy and there was even a 10% chance that you'd scream at me, call me a murderer, or even physically threaten me if I delivered a pizza to your house, I might well refuse to deliver. If the reason you were reviling me was because of a wrong committed by another deliveryman, and you couldn't be bothered to distinguish between me and a thousand other deliverymen, I'd be even more reluctant to face the abuse.

Obviously policing is different in the sense that policework entails--to some degree--being hassled, reviled, and threatened by the people you serve. It's "part of the job", so to speak. But this certainly doesn't make it more tolerable or less demoralizing. It doesn't change human nature, which is often weak and compromising. When I ask, "Why should they risk life and limb to serve people?", the answer (as you state) is "duty", but when duty has to overcome abuse and hyperscrutiny in order to serve people who openly hate you, who will suffer to do right? It takes an iron-hearted and strongly principled man indeed.
 
First, I'd like to ask for a link to the statistics showing the uptick in crime rates where cops are shirking their duties out of temper, as previous times have they have tried this tactic failed to result in the pandemonium they had hoped would follow.
https://twitter.com/JFNYC1/status/1273802715244769280

NYC Sees 400% Jump In Shootings As Undercover Unit Disbanded | Zero Hedge

102 shot in Chicago over Father's Day weekend | Just The News

Atlanta police shortages continue for second day - CNN

NYPD without 11 percent of patrol as 500 cops call out sick

Because what these refusal to work campaigns actually show us is that the problem is way more than just the "couple bad apples" we see on the videos.
From their perspective, doing their jobs leads to daily abuse and gets them demonized by protestors, politicians, and the media. Not only is their work brutal and demoralizing, now they have to contend with the fact that the two greatest rewards of their profession--the respect of their communities, and a feeling of doing good in their communities--are being stripped away. Every officer on the force, no matter how dedicated or innocent, is tarred with the same brush.

As a society, we can't adopt the attitude "We'll respect the police if/when we approve of their conduct in all cases". Peace starts with citizens stepping out in faith and understanding that police officers are our friends and neighbours, siblings and parents, and that the vast majority of them genuinely seek the peace, order, and good of our communities, even if they sometimes fail in this responsibility.

If we as a society respect law enforcement, forgive them, suffer long with them, give them the benefit of the (reasonable) doubt, and refuse to be part of the mob--who see nothing but evil everywhere continually--then we can move slowly towards lasting reforms.

Every time a department engages in this childish, petulant behavior, they give absolute credibility to the complaints levied against them.
We could say the very same about the protestors. One might hypothesize that petulant mob behaviour doesn't actually accomplish anything good.
 
If you don't know what happened in Tulsa and Rosewood, you might want to do a search on those names with the added words "black history" before watching this video. ... At some point you gotta pay the piper and do the right thing, as there's more interest to pay the longer you wait.
I reject several major points of the woman's reasoning. I can't cover all of them, hence I'll limit my response to two:

1. The entire diatribe is predicated on the notion that each race, collectively, is somehow one unified "player" in a game, and that the fortunes, responsibilities, and faults of every citizen are determined by their membership in their "player". This idea is not only morally untenable, it's textbook racism.

I did no wrong to the citizens of Tulsa and Rosewood; I don't inherit the guilt of any white perpetrators who did because I happen to share their skin colour. My ancestors did no wrong to the citizens of Tulsa and Rosewood either, but even if they had, I don't inherit the guilt of their sins. The white race is not my "player". I signed no contracts. I reap no dues or benefits except those afforded to every citizen. I can be (and have been at various times) indebted, financially insecure, demonized, and marginalized. I fear breaking the law. I have no great inheritance, no title, no political ties, no special legal immunity or privileges. If "my race" has played for 400 turns, where are my houses and hotels? Where are my properties? Where is my stack of cash?

And suppose I did inherit these things. If a black man burns down one of my hotels, does the black "player" now owe the white "player" one hotel? What about black Americans whose statistics differ significantly from inner-city averages, such as Nigerians? Are they a part of player black or do they get their own game piece because they're generally as wealthy as player white? What about the impoverished white? Are they part of player white or do they get their own game piece?

It's madness. These "players" are a fiction. If you were arguing reparations on the basis of pure communist redistribution (which is class-based, not race-based, but I digress), you'd at least have a prima facie case, but reparations as "paying the piper" because I inherit the sins of white-skinned men long dead? Maybe we should start confiscating Japanese citizens' property and giving it to Chinese citizens as "paying the piper" for the Japanese occupation of China 80 years ago. Let's make "Japanese" and "Chinese" tokens on our game board, and according to your rules, player Japanese owes player Chinese for player Chinese's ancestors' ill-gotten hotels.

If you can't see how this attitude is racist, illogical, immoral, and completely antithetical to social harmony, I urge you to think critically about what it implies about race, individuality, and citizenship. Apply the same reason to literally any other situation and it should become clear that races as players in a game has absolutely no legitimacy as an argument.

2. Money changing hands does not "fix historical wrongs".

In the case of individual A causing a tort to individual B, when this tort is recognized under the law, when a monetary value can be assigned to the tort, then it is just that individual A be compelled by the courts to repay individual B to make him whole, after which the debt is expunged.

In the case of reparations: i) "individual A" doesn't exist; a race of billions of people is not a "player"; ii) "individual B" doesn't exist for the very same reason; iii) no law has been broken by nonexistent individual A; iv) there is no objective or defensible way to determine the value of the tort; v) a windfall of money changing hands would fix nothing and almost certainly destroy more black lives than it assists (read up on what happens to lottery winners if you doubt this); and vi) only a fool would believe that player white paying player black money would expunge player white's "debt" to player black.

In other words, even if the idea of racial "players" wasn't morally repugant (which it of course is), reparations as a bastardization of tort law is even less defensible. It's incompatible with the fundamental purpose of tort law. It's as wrongheaded as a New Yorker driving down to a random Mississippi home, breaking in and stealing $10,000 in jewelry, then justifying himself by claiming the Mississippian's distant ancestors probably fought for the Confederacy, the New Yorker's ancestors probably fought for the Republic, and as he figures it, the man he robbed owes him $50,000 for loss of inheritance. The only difference is that in the case of reparations it's the state perpetrating the robbery and doing it at millions of times the scale.

The fact that injustice exists and that life isn't fair isn't an excuse for this kind of madness.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Nancy Green is dead. Aunt Jemima iconography is a racist stereotype. It's somewhat bizarre that this is so hard for privileged white people to understand. However, I am not surprised. The same idiots argued that Sambos wasn't racist in nature.

Fail

Sambo's didn't even serve Aunt Jemima pancakes. They make their own from scratch.
 
When's the last time you saw a black person walking around looking like Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben?
Probably within the last two weeks. I haven't been out much on account of COVID, but I live in Toronto. :shrug:

If you're talking about her hairstyle being dated, I suppose they could update it, but why should Aunt Jemima have to change her hairstyle? That's like me saying to my grandmother, "Grandma, you need to get rid of that old hairstyle to look more modern." Why should she? That's always been her hairstyle. There's nothing wrong with it.

So, by now you hopefully understand, re: the bolded, that I do not think any of those things will lead to a more equitable, less divisive society. Rather, they are the consequences of not creating a more equitable, less divisive society.
Fair enough. As long as you're not defending them.

Hoo boy. Sorry, man, I'm putting in the time to educate you on Black history, maybe let's stick with that, because as far as I'm concerned, the only relevance this has to the discussion is that our problems with our own First Nations are driven by the same conditions of white supremacy that America finds itself experiencing with their black citizens.
I'm not saying the two situations are totally equivalent. I'm saying that anybody who still believes throwing money, benefits, and government services at a group of people will "fix historical wrongs"--or even do more good than harm to that group of people--hasn't looked into Canada's handling of First Nations people for the past 50 years.

Dependence. Misery. Suffering. Division and utter resentment.

If that's what I wanted for black Americans, and I moreover didn't care how much it cost everyone else to get it, I'd be right out there in the streets demanding reparations.

Will you, at minimum, take a moment to pause before declaring that the removal of a 19th century caricature of blackness used to market syrup is the end of civilization, and perhaps try to think of it from anyone's perspective other than your own? Or should I have just left it where it was, and focussed on people who actually give a **** about the society they live in, to where they are willing to suffer a little discomfort to fix glaring problems that have caused massive damage for generations?
Which of the two are we talking about: "the removal of a 19th century caricature of blackness", or "glaring problems that have caused massive damage for generations"?

If you acknowledge we're talking about the former, you can't pretend we're talking about the latter.

If we're talking about the latter, you need to acknowledge that what we're discussing is far greater in scope than the former. This has been my position all along.

Thanks for bearing with my lengthy reply, and for your patience in waiting for it. You put a lot of effort into your posts and they deserved a detailed response. Unfortunately my time is limited, so my responses may similarly delayed.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

I'm not a democrat.

Why do you hate non-white people to your bitter core?

Yes you are.

So now non-white people are immune to criticism? LOL

Go on and backtrack another lie from you.
 
Re: Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype

Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is '''based on a racial stereotype'''



So the brand is based on a racial stereotype? Sure, let's just go with that for now.

Here's an academic take -

Now look, I actually agree that the logo and name evoke the image of an elderly, possibly plantation born woman. However, that isn't the point of the marketing! They're marketing syrup and pancake mix. The idea is that "Aunt Jemima" is friendly, warm, inviting, caring (albeit apparently willing to clog your arteries into submission) and kind. She isn't there to scare kids or to have some political motive. It isn't "black food" we're talking about here.

If you're going to have a stereotype then isn't Aunt Jemima EXACTLY the kind of stereotype you want? Don't you want an image that unifies people instead of divides them?

This is the problem with "cancel culture" and the absolutely ridiculous hyper-partisanship involving race in this country. We really don't have a huge problem with race. It isn't "no problem" but it's not a huge issue except that idiots like Riche Richardson can't resist finding a reason to make things out as being worse than they are. Then again, he does have a book to sell so why not capitalize on destroying good things? The people in the media do it. Politicians do it. Community activists do it. Why not authors too. Besides, it's just a logo and the evil, capitalists will never be hurt.

But will the little black kid that never saw racism in that image be hurt. Will the white kid that only say a kind, old black lady now see something different? Isn't this kind of thing making the divide wider rather than helping to ease it?

I fear for Uncle Ben's future. He is dressed in Butlers livery, good God as a servant.
 
Aunt Jemima is part of the Quaker Oats company, and is owned by Pepsico. The image and the name has been known to be problematic for decades and still not much done about it. The company changed the logo years ago from the typical "mammy" stereotype to a picture of a Black woman who could have been dressed for a business meeting...... although who still names their daughter's Jemima?

So just wondering why Pepsico left this "hanging chad" for so long and just now decided to get rid of the name? And are they going to completely abandon the name and prior offensive copywrited images and the name, or continue to retain it and renew the copywrite periodically? I guess I have a lot of questions about Pepsico's sincerity.

If Pepsico truley feels this name and images are now unacceptable they will abandon the copywrite.... BUT THEY WILL NEVER DO THAT. And the reason they won't do it is because then anyone else can file for the copywrite and begin marketing and selling "Aunt Jemima" pancake mix and make money doing so. A lot of money in fact if only as a novelty or nostalgia item. And if I am correct about this, then shouldn't Pepsico / Pepsi and all of their brands and business be cancel cultured too?
 
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