Atheism, Is not believing in gods a belief or not?

[RAMOSS]

If a thing has not been established as impossible, Ramoss...IT IS POSSIBLE.

The moment it is established as impossible...it becomes impossible...but until then IT IS POSSIBLE.

NO, that is not true. The moment it is established to be impossible is when you know it is impossible. That only establishes your knowledge about it. That does not change the fundamentals about reality, but only your knowledge about it.

 

[Ikari]

You need to get a better grip on what it means to say something is possible, Freedom.

As for who is taller:

It IS POSSIBLE you are taller than I.

It also IS POSSIBLE I am taller than you.

It IS POSSIBLE we are exactly the same height.

All of those things are POSSIBLE...regardless of which is correct. Until one is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

I suggest you read that post by Ninja I just mentioned to Ramoss also.

Without having met you, I can state with certainty that you are not 18 feet tall.

 

[Frank Apisa]

NO, that is not true. The moment it is established to be impossible is when you know it is impossible. That only establishes your knowledge about it. That does not change the fundamentals about reality, but only your knowledge about it.

No, Ramoss...up until it is determined that a thing it is impossible...it is possible.

It is POSSIBLE there is a god involved in the REALITY of existence.

It also is POSSIBLE there are no gods involved in the REALITY of existence.

The fact that one of those is almost certainly correct and one almost certainly wrong...does not impact on the POSSIBILITY at this moment.

Right now...while we are talking...IT IS POSSIBLE that there is a god...AND...it is POSSIBLE there are no gods.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Without having met you, I can state with certainty that you are not 18 feet tall.

So???

What does that have to do with what we are discussing here?

I am NOT 18 FEET tall. I actually gave my height in a story I told in one thread about a month ago.

 

[Ikari]

So???

What does that have to do with what we are discussing here?

I am NOT 18 FEET tall. I actually gave my height in a story I told in one thread about a month ago.

I didn't read that. You made a statement of absolute.

If a thing has not been established as impossible, Ramoss...IT IS POSSIBLE.

I haven't established your height, yet it is not possible for you to be so tall.

Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible.

 

[Frank Apisa]

I didn't read that. You made a statement of absolute.

What do you mean "absolute?"

I haven't established your height, yet it is not possible for you to be so tall.

Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible.

First of all...you ARE telling me you have established (albeit, informally) it to be impossible.

Then you wrote "Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible"....which makes no sense.

Wanna try that again?

 

[Ikari]

What do you mean "absolute?"





First of all...you ARE telling me you have established (albeit, informally) it to be impossible.

Then you wrote "Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible"....which makes no sense.

Wanna try that again?

I haven't measured you. I don't know how tall you are. There's infinite possibilities, yes? Even a god stating that There Shall Be a Frank of Ridiculous Proportions!!! Yes? All these are unknown, and thus must be "possible", yes? Yet I can state with certainty that you are not 18 feet tall. Why? Because all that has not been established is not possible.

Maybe you should just think about what you wrote and the consequences thereof.

 

[Pozessed]

Yes, it makes the "god" arbitrary. The dictionary, however, is quite clear.

God
ɡäd/
noun

1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

God

1. The one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

2.the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute:
the God of Islam.

God | Define God at Dictionary.com

The dictionary reference I cite is closer to the definition I described. The "god" I described is speculatively possible according to the dictionary I cited, and the potential "god" I constructed is within the boundaries of this popular dictionaries definition.

 

[Pozessed]

My apology, I guess you were not head anywhere with that. Your question though was leading. And the main reason that I didnt answer it is that it really has no bearing on anything. By that I mean I see no rational reason that anyone should assume such a grand fantastical thing. The concept of a intelligent thing creating a universe has no real connection with what humans call gods. And the concept of a universe creator is a huge what if. What ifs tend to have no logical basis.


WHat it comes down to is that your asking me to get on board with your imagination. 'Is it possible that this imagined thing was done with or without a purpose?'

How is one supposed to answer a question like that logically. The best that one could say is: Your question largely generalizes and relied on huge amounts of assumptions. Why dont you tell me what your point is in asking such a silly question?

That is really my answer to that question. It really cant be answered as a yes or no question given the logically fallacious nature of the question. For me to answer 'yes' I would need to assume that such a thing is possible. And if I answered 'no' then because of how the question is formatted, I would have to have sort of knowledge of why this imagined creator created. It really should be reworded.

Perhaps this makes more sense: Do you believe it is possibly that intelligent life could create a universe? Then follow that up with: Is it possible that if a intelligent life can create a universe that it would do so for a purpose?

The first question I can easily answer: No. I do not think it is possible that intelligent life can create a universe.

The looseness of a question that is impossible for me to know actual truth about needs no real evidence to back up since it really is just a opinion based on presumptions that I have about the nature of the universe. Conversely had I answered yes, it would still be just a opinion.

The part to the question if I answered no, which I did removes the question from my plate. I do not think it is possible for intelligent life to create a universe. Therefore I need not worry about the possibility of a purpose for something I reject. I do actually just reject the question (your version and my version) based on the silliness of it. It is on par with rejecting someone asking me if it is possible that there is a copy of myself in another dimension. The concept is absurd and irrational.

Anyways you came u with the question trying to elicit a answer for the purpose of making some kind of point. I guess you missed the part in my other post where I asked you to just tell me your point? I suspect though that your point had more to do with showing me up than offering a position of your own.

I didn't have a point. I was curious of your response to the question. Thank you for answering. I do agree that the concept of a god and the purpose a god may have for the universe is quite benign and adds little substance to everyday life. Many others disagree. Even though the majority of ideals that surround the idea of whether or not a god exists are bad, few others are good ideals and social constructs.

The idea that we should consider the repercussions if there is a life and judgement after this one. I wouldn't commend anyone whom says there is for certain, but I would say its an idea worth pondering and conversing.
There is also the idea that a god wants us to work harmoniously together. Pondering how a "creator" would want this universe to work as a collective may help us define a better and more harmonious strategy as humans all together.

Here are some points I will make though.
Not all ideals of what a god is or is not are good ideas. They have led to many good circumstances as well as bad ones. We need to find the good things that came from our constructs of god and find ways to implement them more effectively for everyone in society. Society can't do that by debilitating the communication process by assuming a "god" in any fashion is not possible or worth considering. Especially when so many people are emotionally charged on the topic this will only add conflict and frustration.
I have learned to calm this frustration by using the word "creator" as opposed to "god" when trying to help people understand my stance on being agnostic.

 

[Frank Apisa]

I haven't measured you. I don't know how tall you are. There's infinite possibilities, yes? Even a god stating that There Shall Be a Frank of Ridiculous Proportions!!! Yes? All these are unknown, and thus must be "possible", yes? Yet I can state with certainty that you are not 18 feet tall. Why? Because all that has not been established is not possible.

Maybe you should just think about what you wrote and the consequences thereof.

I think perhaps it is you who ought to think things through more carefully, Ikari.

You screwed up the text of your post so badly, it makes no sense to actually deal with it.

Start all over...and make whatever point you want to make...

...and explain how whatever point you are trying to make impacts on the fact that IT IS POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM IS TALLER THAN I...IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM IS NOT AS TALL AS I...AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM AND I ARE IDENTICAL IN HEIGHT.

 

[Ikari]

I think perhaps it is you who ought to think things through more carefully, Ikari.

You screwed up the text of your post so badly, it makes no sense to actually deal with it.

Start all over...and make whatever point you want to make...

...and explain how whatever point you are trying to make impacts on the fact that IT IS POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM IS TALLER THAN I...IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM IS NOT AS TALL AS I...AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT FREEDOM AND I ARE IDENTICAL IN HEIGHT.

You just need to think about what was written a bit more. Try it out, I'm sure if you work at it, you'll be able to figure it out eventually.

 

[Frank Apisa]

You just need to think about what was written a bit more. Try it out, I'm sure if you work at it, you'll be able to figure it out eventually.

Nice try.

You can make sense of this...which you wrote?

Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible.

 

[Ikari]

Nice try.

You can make sense of this...which you wrote?

As one of my graduate physics professors used to say, "You just need to think about it some more".

 

[Frank Apisa]

As one of my graduate physics professors used to say, "You just need to think about it some more".

What you have to do is stop trying to get out of messes...by making the mess messier.

Hey...I'm enjoying this...and I hope you are also.

Great sentence you constructed there!

 

[Cephus]

You just need to think about what was written a bit more. Try it out, I'm sure if you work at it, you'll be able to figure it out eventually.

No, that means having the ability to think logically and there are far too many people around here who entirely lack that ability.

 

[FluffyNinja]

I didn't read that. You made a statement of absolute.



I haven't established your height, yet it is not possible for you to be so tall.

Obviously not everything that has been established as "impossible" is possible.

Apples to oranges because we have known, finite parameters for human height. What are the parameters for where a god might choose to live, or for what form he/she/it might take, or for what abilities he/she/it might have?

 

[Cephus]

Apples to oranges because we have known, finite parameters for human height. What are the parameters for where a god might choose to live, or for what form he/she/it might take, or for what abilities he/she/it might have?

You tell us, and then tell us how you came to that conclusion. Lots of theists claim lots of things about their gods, yet can provide no reason why they actually believe them to be true.

 

[FluffyNinja]

You tell us, and then tell us how you came to that conclusion. Lots of theists claim lots of things about their gods, yet can provide no reason why they actually believe them to be true.

I don't know the parameters for a god, that was the point. We can come to the conclusion that something is impossible if we have a control (given parameters) with which to test it against.

 

[Cephus]

I don't know the parameters for a god, that was the point. We can come to the conclusion that something is impossible if we have a control (given parameters) with which to test it against.

So you believe in something for which you haven't got the slightest idea what it is? Doesn't that seem... stupid?

 

[FluffyNinja]

So you believe in something for which you haven't got the slightest idea what it is? Doesn't that seem... stupid?

Meh....stupid is a relative term. It works for me. Gives me hope and inner peace. People find hope and positive energy in a variety of strange ways but I don't judge them. Why should my source of comfort be considered more "stupid" than any other?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

You need to get a better grip on what it means to say something is possible, Freedom.

As for who is taller:

It IS POSSIBLE you are taller than I.

It also IS POSSIBLE I am taller than you.

It IS POSSIBLE we are exactly the same height.

All of those things are POSSIBLE...regardless of which is correct. Until one is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

I suggest you read that post by Ninja I just mentioned to Ramoss also.

As I said you can claim all of those things as being possible. But you cannot know that any of them are actually physically possible, not without the information needed to make that claim. Your claim that gods are possible has little to no actual importance. Either way the actuality of if something is possible is limited by the truth. Without confirming information, stating that something is possible is a empty opinion. Certainly you dont actually know if gods are possible in reality.

Be honest you dont know one way or the other if gods are real or even actually possible. Assuming they are possible because you lack to knowledge to know better just means that you have no clue. But you keep trying to tell me that you do know that gods are possible based on not knowing that they are not possible. Dont you see the problem with that type of assertion?

Does god exist? What is a god? God has been defined by humans with zero knowledge of this thing they call god.

Therefor claiming that it is possible that god exists or doesnt exist in pointless.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

I didn't have a point. I was curious of your response to the question. Thank you for answering. I do agree that the concept of a god and the purpose a god may have for the universe is quite benign and adds little substance to everyday life. Many others disagree. Even though the majority of ideals that surround the idea of whether or not a god exists are bad, few others are good ideals and social constructs.

The idea that we should consider the repercussions if there is a life and judgement after this one. I wouldn't commend anyone whom says there is for certain, but I would say its an idea worth pondering and conversing.
There is also the idea that a god wants us to work harmoniously together. Pondering how a "creator" would want this universe to work as a collective may help us define a better and more harmonious strategy as humans all together.

Here are some points I will make though.
Not all ideals of what a god is or is not are good ideas. They have led to many good circumstances as well as bad ones. We need to find the good things that came from our constructs of god and find ways to implement them more effectively for everyone in society. Society can't do that by debilitating the communication process by assuming a "god" in any fashion is not possible or worth considering. Especially when so many people are emotionally charged on the topic this will only add conflict and frustration.
I have learned to calm this frustration by using the word "creator" as opposed to "god" when trying to help people understand my stance on being agnostic.

The best way of implementing good things in any society is by doing good things. Not by inventing magical gods. Or by assuming that any concept of a good is a good element in society. Once you open that door it will always be exploited. ANd using the word creator doesnt change anything. I know and you know you are still talking about gods. You just changed the name. It is dishonest.

 

[Ikari]

Apples to oranges because we have known, finite parameters for human height. What are the parameters for where a god might choose to live, or for what form he/she/it might take, or for what abilities he/she/it might have?

Could a god not make a giant Frank?

 

[FluffyNinja]

Could a god not make a giant Frank?

Nah. All guys named Frank are limited to around 6'6". Thus sayeth the Lord.

 

[Ikari]

Nah. All guys named Frank are limited to around 6'6". Thus sayeth the Lord.

Interesting. Good dodge.