• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Atheism, Is not believing in gods a belief or not?

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Go to the quotes, Gonzo. We'll talk when you have the quotes with links.

By the way...I doubt you will find any quote of mine that would lead you to think that I consider the word "believe" never to mean anything other than "to guess blindly; to have religious faith"?

I've never indicated anything even remotely close to that...and in fact have said otherwise on MANY occasions.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
By the way...I doubt you will find any quote of mine that would lead you to think that I consider the word "believe" never to mean anything other than "to guess blindly; to have religious faith"?

I've never indicated anything even remotely close to that...and in fact have said otherwise on MANY occasions.

Ok, this is great! So we have you on record saying that "believe" doesn't just mean to guess blindly or to have religious faith.

Point the second:

Do you belie.... sorry, do you estimate that most people you have talked to online refrain from describing their stance on god as a "belief"?

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to offline use the word "belief" to describe their stance on god?
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ok, this is great! So we have you on record saying that "believe" doesn't just mean to guess blindly or to have religious faith.

You either do not know how to read...or you do not know how to reason.

You asked one thing...and now are calling me wrong on something else.

Get me a quote...along with the link.

I will respond.

Why not start with a quote of me saying that the only thing "believe" can mean is "to guess blindly" or "to have religious faith?"


Just for laughs...try to find that.
 
Last edited:

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
You either do not know how to read...or you do not know how to reason.

You asked one thing...and now are calling me wrong on something else.

Get me a quote...along with the link.

I will respond.

Why not start with a quote of me saying that the only thing "believe" can mean is "to guess blindly" or "to have religious faith?"


Just for laughs...try to find that.

Right now, I'm just trying to nail you down on things you will admit to, so you can't slink away later and say "I never said that". These are very simple statements, with very simple answers, that don't leave any room for, ah, "artistic interpretation". I've also created a subfolder in my bookmarks folder and labeled the link with the point so I can find it easily later. That way, when you get going on one-liners with several people without advancing the debate for tens of pages, I can hop right to what I am looking for. If I'm super bored next weekend (which I might be, since my thesis will be done then), I might go back and catalogue the last 50 pages or so.

But for now, we're going to get you to explicitly state your claims. This way we can have a constructive, adult-style debate where the person making claims states their premises. Then we can examine those premises and test the truth of the premises and the validity of the conclusions drawn from them.

So, Point the Second:

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to online refrain from describing their stance on god as a "belief"?

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to offline use the word "belief" to describe their stance on god?
 

stevecanuck

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
5,997
Reaction score
1,500
Location
Canada / Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
There are societies (and were, especially in the godless societies of communist countries) where kids were never confronted with any deity concept.

Of course that takes nothing away from the examples that you cite. I agree that abandoning a belief system one has initially been subjected to is hardly a passive thing.

But once that abandonment has been effected, it gets pretty silly to describe the resulting lack of belief as a belief.

Which, if I read you correctly, is basically what you're saying as well.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. I try not to use the word atheist, because it sounds too much like a description of belief. I think it's misleading. I also try to say (when asked of course), "I don't believe in the existence of god(s)", rather than, "I don't believe in God", because the latter implies there is a god, but that I simply refuse to acknowledge him. That too is misleading.
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Right now, I'm just trying to nail you down on things you will admit to, so you can't slink away later and say "I never said that". These are very simple statements, with very simple answers, that don't leave any room for, ah, "artistic interpretation". I've also created a subfolder in my bookmarks folder and labeled the link with the point so I can find it easily later. That way, when you get going on one-liners with several people without advancing the debate for tens of pages, I can hop right to what I am looking for. If I'm super bored next weekend (which I might be, since my thesis will be done then), I might go back and catalogue the last 50 pages or so.

But for now, we're going to get you to explicitly state your claims. This way we can have a constructive, adult-style debate where the person making claims states their premises. Then we can examine those premises and test the truth of the premises and the validity of the conclusions drawn from them.

So, Point the Second:

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to online refrain from describing their stance on god as a "belief"?

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to offline use the word "belief" to describe their stance on god?

Go to your "sub-folder"; find something I have said with which you disagree; and let's discuss it.

I've already said what I want to say here...and you seem to be of the opinion that almost everything I say is wrong or devious...so you should be able to open to almost any page of the thread and find something that you hold in the bizarre contempt you have for what I say.

When you do that...we start again.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
Go to your "sub-folder"; find something I have said with which you disagree; and let's discuss it.

I've already said what I want to say here...and you seem to be of the opinion that almost everything I say is wrong or devious...so you should be able to open to almost any page of the thread and find something that you hold in the bizarre contempt you have for what I say.

When you do that...we start again.

Now that there are clearly established rules, you suddenly don't want to participate?

Why, that IS surprising!

You said you don't want to confirm or deny any of those atatements, and in the next post your denied the first point. Let's keep going, Frank. You might enjoy this process. Think of it like an interview.
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Now that there are clearly established rules, you suddenly don't want to participate?

Why, that IS surprising!

You said you don't want to confirm or deny any of those atatements, and in the next post your denied the first point. Let's keep going, Frank. You might enjoy this process. Think of it like an interview.

For weeks now I have been hearing you rail about my opinions with your usual bounty of scorn and contempt...and your horribly distorted paraphrasing of my positions.

Now I have asked you for specifics, from your "sub-folder" so we we can actually deal with what I have written rather than your distortions of what I have written...and you seem to be unable to come up with anything.

I didn't think you could...much easier to invent positions and ask that I defend what I did not write.

Well...I'm not going to allow that. You can take these "clearly established rules" (that you invented out of thin air and are demanding I meet) and store them where they will not be bleached by the sun.

Since there is so much I say that you consider ignorant or untruthful...you should easily be able to find an example so we can discuss it reasonably and civilly.

Do it.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
For weeks now I have been hearing you rail about my opinions with your usual bounty of scorn and contempt...and your horribly distorted paraphrasing of my positions.

Now I have asked you for specifics, from your "sub-folder" so we we can actually deal with what I have written rather than your distortions of what I have written...and you seem to be unable to come up with anything.

I didn't think you could...much easier to invent positions and ask that I defend what I did not write.

Well...I'm not going to allow that. You can take these "clearly established rules" (that you invented out of thin air and are demanding I meet) and store them where they will not be bleached by the sun.

Since there is so much I say that you consider ignorant or untruthful...you should easily be able to find an example so we can discuss it reasonably and civilly.

Do it.

I'm building the subfolder with these responses. I'm trying to get your claims clearly stated for the record in completely unambiguous terms.

For example, you have clearly denied that you think belief implies a very narrowly defined set of options; it does not, in your estimation, only mean blind guessing or specific religious belief.

This is good to know, since all of your numerous posts about how you "don't do believing" are usually coupled with some sort of jab at atheists as "believers" of some sort. To that end, you have said that atheists online don't seem to use the word "belief" (as in, they "don't do 'believing'") but that atheists offline in the real world do tend to do this, and that this is somehow evidence of their "beliefs" that you have previously claimed aren't rooted in logic or any kind of evidence.

Well, now that we have you on record clearly denying that "belief" implies a blind guess or a religiously held belief, we have taken a tool out of your toolbox used to passively smuggle in the premise that atheists are on the same sort of philosophical footing as theists.

Now I would like to get you to clarify your earlier statements about atheists online and offline. You can affirm that you feel you way, or you can deny you said this, or you can offer any sort of clarification as you see fit. Call this a blank slate, no judgement. I'd just like to know from what basis you will be defending your claims
To wit, point the second:

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to online refrain from describing their stance on god as a "belief"?

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to offline use the word "belief" to describe their stance on god?
 
Last edited:

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'm building the subfolder with these responses. I'm trying to get your claims clearly stated for the record in completely unambiguous terms.

For example, you have clearly denied that you think belief implies a very narrowly defined set of options; it does not, in your estimation, only mean blind guessing or specific religious belief.

This is good to know, since all of your numerous posts about how you "don't do believing" are usually coupled with some sort of jab at atheists as "believers" of some sort. To that end, you have said that atheists online don't seem to use the word "belief" (as in, they "don't do 'believing'") but that atheists offline in the real world do tend to do this, and that this is somehow evidence of their "beliefs" that you have previously claimed aren't rooted in logic or any kind of evidence.

Well, now that we have you on record clearly denying that "belief" implies a blind guess or a religiously held belief, we have taken a tool out of your toolbox used to passively smuggle in the premise that atheists are on the same sort of philosophical footing as theists.

Now I would like to get you to clarify your earlier statements about atheists online and offline. You can affirm that you feel you way, or you can deny you said this, or you can offer any sort of clarification as you see fit. Call this a blank slate, no judgement. I'd just like to know from what basis you will be defending your claims
To wit, point the second:

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to online refrain from describing their stance on god as a "belief"?

Do you estimate that most people you have talked to offline use the word "belief" to describe their stance on god?

I am waiting for the quote...and link to the quote that you are suggesting is either ignorant or a lie.

When I get that, we may be able to proceed.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
I am waiting for the quote...and link to the quote that you are suggesting is either ignorant or a lie.

When I get that, we may be able to proceed.

But Frank, I'm simply trying to simplify your statements so there isn't any confusion. Don't you want to be clearly understood? All you have to say is, "yeah, that's something I said or would say," or, "no, that is not something I said or would say". Or, hell, even, "that's pretty close, but not quite right. Let me clarify that for you".

Why don't you want to be perfectly understood, when that is literally all I am trying to do?

...is there something wrong with your ideas themselves? Is that why you are resisting attempts at clarification? Do you find some advantage in not being clearly understood?
 
Last edited:

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
But Frank, I'm simply trying to simplify your statements so there isn't any confusion. Don't you want to be clearly understood? All you have to say is, "yeah, that's something I said or would say," or, "no, that is not something I said or would say". Or, hell, even, "that's pretty close, but not quite right. Let me clarify that for you".

Why don't you want to be perfectly understood, when that is literally all I am trying to do?

...is there something wrong with your ideas themselves? Is that why you are resisting attempts at clarification?

Why are you resisting finding one quote with which you have a clear difference...which you see to indicate that I am lying, or ignorant...or which in some other way merits the scorn and contempt you seem to have for me as a human being and as a participant in this discussion.

Answer that one question...and I will give you one bite of the apple. You can ask me the question you consider the most important...and I promise to answer it fully, completely, and clearly. If you do not understand my answer, I will flesh it out until you do. BUT that does not mean a series of questions. We will stick to the one question until we resolve it completely... either with me acknowledging that I was lying, that I was ignorant, or that I deserved the scorn and contempt...

...or you acknowledging that my take on the matter is reasonable, logical, knowledgeable, and truthful.

Okay?

So...you answer to my question.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
Why are you resisting finding one quote with which you have a clear difference...which you see to indicate that I am lying, or ignorant...or which in some other way merits the scorn and contempt you seem to have for me as a human being and as a participant in this discussion.

Answer that one question...and I will give you one bite of the apple.

As I said earlier, your claims are plastered over hundreds of posts, going back many, many pages, and even different threads. It's hard to nail down an exact quote for your claims, because they exist in snippets and parts all over the place.

Hence, why I want to clarify some of the things you said. Even if this is like pulling teeth, it's better than sifting through hundreds of responses and stitching them all together. Especially when I can then be accused of stitching them together incorrectly! So, it's just way better for EVERYONE (you included, here) if you just plainly state your claims, or at the minimum, answer questions to clarify what you meant by what you said.

I believe I have answered your question.

You can ask me the question you consider the most important...and I promise to answer it fully, completely, and clearly. If you do not understand my answer, I will flesh it out until you do. BUT that does not mean a series of questions. We will stick to the one question until we resolve it completely... either with me acknowledging that I was lying, that I was ignorant, or that I deserved the scorn and contempt...

...or you acknowledging that my take on the matter is reasonable, logical, knowledgeable, and truthful.

Frank, I say this sincerely: this is truly all I want out of our discussion.

If you are committed to really fleshing this out, fully and to the benefit of my understanding, I would like to back up one and have you define the word "belief" for us. How you use it, in passing and in rigor. When you say you "don't do believing," what do you mean by that? And when you say that atheists "do believing", what do you mean by that?

Let's start there. When we put this one in the can (and by that, I mean that we are very clear on what you are saying, not that we agree about what it being said... I don't want to argue the point so much as have you state it clearly and unambiguously), then you can ask ME a question if you'd like! If not, we can do another one of your statements if you wish.

I'm looking forward to this.
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
As I said earlier, your claims are plastered over hundreds of posts, going back many, many pages, and even different threads. It's hard to nail down an exact quote for your claims, because they exist in snippets and parts all over the place.

Hence, why I want to clarify some of the things you said. Even if this is like pulling teeth, it's better than sifting through hundreds of responses and stitching them all together. Especially when I can then be accused of stitching them together incorrectly! So, it's just way better for EVERYONE (you included, here) if you just plainly state your claims, or at the minimum, answer questions to clarify what you meant by what you said.

I believe I have answered your question.



Frank, I say this sincerely: this is truly all I want out of our discussion.

If you are committed to really fleshing this out, fully and to the benefit of my understanding, I would like to back up one and have you define the word "belief" for us. How you use it, in passing and in rigor. When you say you "don't do believing," what do you mean by that? And when you say that atheists "do believing", what do you mean by that?

Let's start there. When we put this one in the can (and by that, I mean that we are very clear on what you are saying, not that we agree about what it being said... I don't want to argue the point so much as have you state it clearly and unambiguously), then you can ask ME a question if you'd like! If not, we can do another one of your statements if you wish.

I'm looking forward to this.

You actually did not answer my question...you dodged it. But I am going to answer your question by quoting something I wrote in this thread that pretty much answers your question...and actually does your work for you...since you cannot find anything with which you disagree.


In my #23 ON PAGE 2 OF THIS THREAD: I wrote:

One of the things we are going to have to deal with in order for this discussion to go forward reasonably...is to determine what each of us means when we use the word "believe" (or "belief).

In the context of a discussion about what does or does not exist in the REALITY of existence...

...a "belief" is nothing more than a guess about an unknown that is being disguised by the use of the word "belief."
(Emphasis added.)

I handled this all the way back there...over 1300 posts ago! And have dealt with it several times since.

Your use of the word "believe" in your response above to me means nothing to me. I understand what you meant...and I would not argue with it. I would not use that wording. I would have said something more along the lines of, "I think that answers your question."

The non-use of "believe" and "belief" is a quirk of mine...mostly so that when I do get to discussions of philosophy and religion, I do not resort to disguising some guesses I will make...AND I WILL MAKE THEM.

For the atheists who say, "I believe there are no gods"...I think the word is being used the way a theists would use it...to denote a blind guess about the REALITY of existence...but disguising it for whatever reason.

For atheists who say, "I lack a belief in a god"...I think the word is being used essentially to say, "I do not accept anyone's blind guess that there are gods."

I am NOT saying that a lack of belief in gods...IS A BELIEF. I've said that many times.

(See my #11)

If a person is saying "I believe there are no gods"...that is acknowledgement of a "belief."

If a person says, "I do not believe there are any gods" (although it sounds like the same thing is being said)...it is quite different.


Take it from there. More to come on this. Stick with this...my take on "belief"...not to moving to something else for now.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
You actually did not answer my question...you dodged it.

Frank: "Why are you resisting finding one quote with which you have a clear difference...which you see to indicate that I am lying, or ignorant...or which in some other way merits the scorn and contempt you seem to have for me as a human being and as a participant in this discussion."

Me: "As I said earlier, your claims are plastered over hundreds of posts, going back many, many pages, and even different threads. It's hard to nail down an exact quote for your claims, because they exist in snippets and parts all over the place."

Hence, why I want to clarify some of the things you said.

I'm sorry you don't like how I answered your question, but I most certainly answered it. And thanks for being a good sport and continuing the discussion from there.

But I am going to answer your question by quoting something I wrote in this thread that pretty much answers your question...and actually does your work for you...since you cannot find anything with which you disagree.


In my #23 ON PAGE 2 OF THIS THREAD: I wrote:

(Emphasis added.)

I handled this all the way back there...over 1300 posts ago! And have dealt with it several times since.

Your use of the word "believe" in your response above to me means nothing to me. I understand what you meant...and I would not argue with it. I would not use that wording. I would have said something more along the lines of, "I think that answers your question."

The non-use of "believe" and "belief" is a quirk of mine...mostly so that when I do get to discussions of philosophy and religion, I do not resort to disguising some guesses I will make...AND I WILL MAKE THEM.

For the atheists who say, "I believe there are no gods"...I think the word is being used the way a theists would use it...to denote a blind guess about the REALITY of existence...but disguising it for whatever reason.

For atheists who say, "I lack a belief in a god"...I think the word is being used essentially to say, "I do not accept anyone's blind guess that there are gods."

I am NOT saying that a lack of belief in gods...IS A BELIEF. I've said that many times.

(See my #11)




Take it from there. More to come on this. Stick with this...my take on "belief"...not to moving to something else for now.

This is fantastic. Ok. I'm going to paraphrase this just so I know I understand it from your perspective. If my paraphrase is wrong in any way, I fully expect you to pounce on it and correct me.

You're saying, then, that if an atheist uses the phrase "I believe there is no god," that this use of belief implies their thoughts on the matter are nothing more than a blind guess, no different than a theist who might say they believe in god? Is this accurate?

Is there a fundamental difference between the phrases, "I lack a belief in god," and, "I do not believe in god"?
 

shelphs

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
57
Reaction score
31
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Here's my take:

There is a fine line between believing there are no gods and simply not believing in gods. And, I guess, an absence of evidence for gods can lead someone to believe there are no gods, even though such a belief is nothing more than an unsubstantiated assumption. So, it's a "belief."

However, and this IMO is relevant: Belief that something does not exist because nothing out there indicates that it does is not the same as believing something does exist even though nothing out there indicates that it does.



[DISCLAIMER: the following is clearly facetious, except final paragraph, and disparages all. enjoy.]



Atheists are pompous bits! As if divinity is a creative entrepreneurial spirit, "God." It's the Holy, the Truth, and it is the answers, which humanity could recognize in its infancy of complete ignorance. God knows all, and we know God. It's just like my friend Rick. Super, crazy, smart dude. I go to him for everything. Totally trustworthy in all matters. What he says, I follow. I don't care that he's 107 years old and the last time he was in school was over 91 years ago. He's the best. My whole family loves him, yes we do.
- by a Theist


How single- and closed-minded must you be to be religious? To hell with you God-believers! As if you know, or could know all the answers. I correctly vehemently disbelieve in your beliefs. Dumb-dumbs. I'm narcissistic, sure. I have a sense of bloated self-worth, of course. But common, lets keep things in check. I mean, as if some omniscient, omnipresent thing snaps its fingers and, bang, we all of a sudden exist. Nonsense. No science could support that.
- by an Atheist


Agnostics are the damned worst. As if indecisiveness is a decision. Morons. It's a belief system at the developmental stage prior to fully formed thought. Oxymoron you! It's like looking at right and wrong and saying neither exists. Join the war, Switzerland. Grab your fatigues and assault rifles, idiots! Something is or isn't. It's either day or night. Sure, the words morning and evening exist, but they could equally be called night-day and day-night, respectfully. See, same words used.
- a collaboration by believers, minus one



I think I've shown my work. Right? Any point of view, or idea that is non-empirically thought to be true, is a belief. A fact, something widely held to be a universal truth, is not a belief; however, some facts started as beliefs, e.g., before someone devised a means of experimentally showing the Earth to be round, the thought of a round Earth was a belief. All things metaphysical are beliefs.
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This is fantastic. Ok. I'm going to paraphrase this just so I know I understand it from your perspective. If my paraphrase is wrong in any way, I fully expect you to pounce on it and correct me.

You're saying, then, that if an atheist uses the phrase "I believe there is no god," that this use of belief implies their thoughts on the matter are nothing more than a blind guess, no different than a theist who might say they believe in god? Is this accurate?

Absolutely accurate, as shown by the example of previous posts of mine listed below.

Is there a fundamental difference between the phrases, "I lack a belief in god," and, "I do not believe in god"?

Please read the examples of earlier posts of mine on this topic:


I say it is vital.

If a person is saying "I believe there are no gods"...that is acknowledgement of a "belief."


If a person says, "I do not believe there are any gods" (although it sounds like the same thing is being said)...it is quite different.
MY #11

You are absolutely correct here. Stating a lack of belief...is not a belief.
MY#183

I think atheism, essentially, is a belief. But not all atheists express their atheism the same way.

A person saying, "I do not believe gods exist"...is NOT stating a belief. The person is stating an absence of belief.

If the person had said, "I believe gods do not exist" (WHICH IS NOT THE SAME THING)...then the person would be stating a belief.

In any case, what Rogue said in #164 was NOT a belief.
MY 231

If one says "I do not believe there are any gods"...it is NOT the same as saying "I believe there are no gods."

There is no splitting of hairs there.

That difference (and it is a significant difference) is at the heart of why some people call themselves "weak atheists."

It also happens to be an important element in why some people call themselves agnostics.
MY 241
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
Absolutely accurate, as shown by the example of previous posts of mine listed below.



Please read the examples of earlier posts of mine on this topic:


MY #11

MY#183

MY 231

MY 241

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Just to put a slightly finer point on it, how do you feel about someone who says something like, "[point a, point b...points x, y, and z]... therefore, I think the existence of any kind of god is unlikely". How do you categorize that statement? Does it matter to you whether or not you agree with the arguments that lead up to claim of improbability? Or is the claim of improbability enough on its own to call such a statement "a belief" in the Apisian fashion?
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Just to put a slightly finer point on it, how do you feel about someone who says something like, "[point a, point b...points x, y, and z]... therefore, I think the existence of any kind of god is unlikely". How do you categorize that statement? Does it matter to you whether or not you agree with the arguments that lead up to claim of improbability? Or is the claim of improbability enough on its own to call such a statement "a belief" in the Apisian fashion?

I will go into this further as we continue...but for now, I agree with what you have been hinting at in earlier posts that if I say I do not do "believing" because I do not use the word "believe"...it certainly means that when other do not use it. In your example...there was no use of "believe" or "belief"...SO IT IS NOT A BELIEF.

In the case of "probability" of the existence of gods (FOR OR AGAINST)...I see nothing but self-serving, gratuitous probability estimations. I stand my my assertion that "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" CANNOT in any way be derived from reason, logic, or science.

I hope that answers your question. If not...restate it. I'll give it another shot.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
I will go into this further as we continue...but for now, I agree with what you have been hinting at in earlier posts that if I say I do not do "believing" because I do not use the word "believe"...it certainly means that when other do not use it. In your example...there was no use of "believe" or "belief"...SO IT IS NOT A BELIEF.

In the case of "probability" of the existence of gods (FOR OR AGAINST)...I see nothing but self-serving, gratuitous probability estimations. I stand my my assertion that "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" CANNOT in any way be derived from reason, logic, or science.

I hope that answers your question. If not...restate it. I'll give it another shot.

Nope, I think we got it. Bookmarked and everything. We can move onto the next if you like. Let's talk about "probability."

Now, you have said in the past that you KNOW the sun would rise tomorrow, given nothing cataclysmic happens in the meantime. But I just want to make absolutely sure what it is we are talking about here when we are talking about the sun rising, which you agreed meant the Earth continuing its normal rotation until such time as dawn-local happens within the next 24 hour period. Just to be clear, do I have your views right on this? Do you, in fact, claim that you KNOW this will happen, given the lack of a cataclysm?
 
Last edited:

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Nope, I think we got it. Bookmarked and everything. We can move onto the next if you like. Let's talk about "probability."

Now, you have said in the past that you KNOW the sun would rise tomorrow, given nothing cataclysmic happens in the meantime. But I just want to make absolutely sure what it is we are talking about here when we are talking about the sun rising, which you agreed meant the Earth continuing its normal rotation until such time as dawn-local happens within the next 24 hour period. Just to be clear, do I have your views right on this? Do you, in fact, claim that you KNOW this will happen, given the lack of a cataclysm?

We are not finished with "believe"...but I will answer this question for now.

You did ask me this question once before, Gonzo. It should be in your special folder.

When you asked me to clarify it, I changed "know" to "expect." You can find that in my 1315 & 1320.

So that we are clear, when I use the word "know" I use it only in the most casual of ways. I remember an interview Bill Moyers had with Richard Feynman...where Feynman essentially said that we know nothing with absolute certainty. (He was straying from science to philosophy.) I agree with him. To KNOW any of the stuff we often use "know" for...probably can be disputed. I will say, even in a rigorous discussion, that I KNOW the name on my birth certificate is "Frank Apisa"; I know I'll be 80 years old in August; I know I am sitting at my desk tapping the keyboard of my computer...BUT in a greater, more exact sense, I do not know any of those things. They may all be illusions in a REALITY which is beyond my ability to comprehend.

(If it is an illusion, by the way, I live comfortably and with satisfaction in it.)

Short of a cataclysm, I do expect that the illusion of the sun rising in the east will occur.
 

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
4,161
Reaction score
1,373
Location
Here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
I didn't forget about you, Frank. Like I said earlier, I'm finishing my thesis right about meow.
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I didn't forget about you, Frank. Like I said earlier, I'm finishing my thesis right about meow.

No problemo!

Golf (working and playing) is taking up a lot of my time during the day, Gonzo. I can only get here during the early hours and late in the afternoon.

I usta quit the forums during the summer months...but this year I'll be around.

Good luck with the thesis.
 

Chagos

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
32,040
Reaction score
9,340
Location
in expatria
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
No problemo!.................
It's problema, even where it is masculine in Spanish (and Italian).

And no, I have no propensity for playing the grammar and spelling gestapo, it's just that this reminds me of my having been speaking Spanish for years until somebody threw politeness overboard and pointed out my (same) error.

As the saying goes, good deeds need to be passed on.

Sooooh, just saying.;)
 

Frank Apisa

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
11,492
Reaction score
2,718
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It's problema, even where it is masculine in Spanish (and Italian).

And no, I have no propensity for playing the grammar and spelling gestapo, it's just that this reminds me of my having been speaking Spanish for years until somebody threw politeness overboard and pointed out my (same) error.

As the saying goes, good deeds need to be passed on.

Sooooh, just saying.;)

I took Spanish MANY years ago...and did not remember that.

Actually, I was using my "John Conner" voice in Terminator 2 when I wrote that. He used "problemo."
 
Top Bottom